TheGreenPhantom
Established member
Just wondering if anyone has any insight into the qualitative effects of these substances when taken alone, and when combined with DMT (as well as what dosages were used). Which one do you prefer and why?
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Harmine vs Harmaline vs Mixed Harmalas
- Thread starter TheGreenPhantom
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DetritusTheEgo
Established member
My experience so far with harmine by itself after I just extracted some early August has been putting it in my mouth under my tongue. Eventually enough saliva will happen that you can get it all in there and I hold it in my mouth under my tongue for 5-10 minutes before swallowing it. Doses were:
I have yet to try harmaline and the two mixed together. I also have yet to try it in conjunction with other compounds. I will likely end up trying a microdose of LSD + harmine at some point as I do that micro pretty often. When I do that it'll be with a batch that I already know the felt effect at a given volumetric dose to compare the differences.
- 50mg to see if the body had any profound reaction that would cease my further interaction with the compound at higher doses. No felt effect. No observable reaction.
- 150mg no observable felt effect. Didn't have anything of note to record and thus did not.
- 200mg no felt effect. Maybe some increased attention to what I could equate to something in the same realm of caffeine. No euphoria. Nothing psychedelic in nature. No nausea. At maybe the three / four hour mark I did have a fit of yawning and laid in my bed for about 20-30minutes and watched an episode of a TV show. After that proceeded to be up and about.
I have yet to try harmaline and the two mixed together. I also have yet to try it in conjunction with other compounds. I will likely end up trying a microdose of LSD + harmine at some point as I do that micro pretty often. When I do that it'll be with a batch that I already know the felt effect at a given volumetric dose to compare the differences.
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What form was the harmine in - salt or freebase?
DetritusTheEgo
Established member
Both the harmine and harmaline I have is in freebase form. My experience seemed to match the reports from Jacubey in Yet another harmine VS harmaline thread I linked, but I didn't find much harmine specific reports at that dose to reference against directly besides various subjective descriptions in the other posts from the threads I read through:
I looked through a dozen or so harmala reports on Erowid but few were any isolated harmalas by itself and essentially all were seed teas from Syrian rue in a wide band of weights that equated to massive doses in comparison.
Any particular reason for the interest in harmine specifically? I am not sure maybe it does have the same MAOI strength as harmaline but it does seem to be weak on psychoactive effects.
Right - harmaline is distinctly more intoxicating, although teasing apart what synergy there may be with harmine, if any, looks as similarly worthwhile a goal as distinguishing the activities of either compound alone.
A possible reason is that caapi has harmine, but very little harmaline. I haven't tried the alkaloids on their own, but based on comparing caapi vs. alkaloids extracted from rue, harmaline seems to add a "pushy" feeling that is lacking in caapi. Although I don't know to what extent THH or other compounds in caapi contribute to the difference.
I'm reading a bit on wikipedia about harmala alkaloids it's interesting that harmine is basically oxidized haramaline so perhaps over time the profile of rue changes from harmaline dominant to harmine dominant, or maybe depending on drying conditions. I'm curious to try the seperation on my 8 yo+ rue seeds. I have done the seperation before on newer seeds but I don't recall the numbers and I don't think I tried the alkaloids seperately.
"Oxidation" can mean any of several things, as we've also encountered with the extraction lore regarding supposed "DMT-N-oxide".
With the harmala alkaloids, there's the progressive loss of hydrogens (2H at a time) from THH→harmaline→harmine, which is separate from the oxidative coupling that might reasonably be presumed to give rise to harmala red.
This last case appears highly likely to be a product of electron loss to atmospheric oxygen, as in the mnemonic for redox reactions - "OIL-RIG" Oxidation Is Loss, Reduction Is Gain [of electrons].
Sasha Shulgin also postulated a similar "degradation" process for harmala alkaloids as above, regarding the exclusive occurrence of harmine in historic caapi samples, so I wouldn't be at all surprised to find a similar process happening in Syrian rue.
Hydride transfer and its equivalents are relatively commonplace among biological processes.
Thanks for clearing things up, at first when reading about the oxidation I was surprised because there's no additional oxygen in the molecule but then I learned that hydrogen loss is also called oxidation. And I thought the same about THH and harmaline from looking at the molecular structure but the AI did not agree haha.
yes, well… the "AI" also didn't exactly agree with @Mindlusion about DMT pyrolysis products fairly recently*, so I can't help thinking that they're broadly untrustworthy in matters of chemistry unless you're using a highly specialised model:
The same caveat applies as with all other groups of specialist information - the outputs from a machine learning chatbot require a reasonably advanced level of knowledge in the field in order to sensibly interpret and above all verify them.
*to an old crock like me
DetritusTheEgo
Established member
I'm not particularly drawn to harmine per say. Saw it as a worthwhile exercise to experience the two alkaloids by themselves before delving into them together. Ive found it to be quite an illuminating exercise with other compounds such as psilocin by itself, psilocybin by itself, and then different ratios of the two in common Cubensis strains.
In future extracts I may forego separation of the alkaloids depending on my eventual ratio bioassays. Though I can see the utility in being able to tailor a ratio depending on the intent. My end goal is to use them in changa but I'm in no particular rush on that. DMT has always fascinated me but also kind of scares me to an equal or greater magnitude.
After the reading I've done harmaline, and or harmine and harmaline in combination, is a bit more enticing if it ends up pairing well with dream potentation / exploration.
Harmaline seems kind of like a deliriant that can result in lucid visual imagery the user can influence in some reports. I could foresee some interesting plant / compound combinations for dream states but I need to research more on the compounds in those plants to see if they would have any issues combining with a MAOI.
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Based on my experiences with rue and caapi, this seems to be a common feature of harmala alkaloids in general. It's just harmaline is more potent in its effects, so it takes a lower dose to get there. Individual sensitivities to those effects also seem to vary a lot.
Yes I've also had one of my best lucid dreams on harmalas, I got up from the bed I was sleeping in and walked to the other room with a large window and I could see the planets in the way they are usually visible, as bright stars, and then I could just move them around in the sky as I wish.
I use mandrake transdermally for dreaming and haven't noticed any bad interactions with harmalas.
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Was it a dream? In my case, I enter a state that is very similar to the dream state, but I'm not asleep. I can move my body without issues while I see the visuals (that yes, are highly controllable), as long as I remember I can. It is very similar to the dream state, so if yours was a dream, it's quite interesting.
Yeah for me it is a dream I'd be fully asleep, and often lucid dreams for me start from exactly where I am sleeping physically.
DetritusTheEgo
Established member
What dose have you both settled into out of curiosity with harmalas and or individually?
Lucid dreaming did come to mind with harmalas after reading a few of the day dream style reports. It has peaked my interest to hear blig-blug has tapped into that style of lucid dreaming headspace while awake with harmalas since I've yet to branch out from harmine above 200mg. I've found lucid dreaming to be a rare joyous experience. I'll look into mandrake.
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I have experienced that on 250mg harmalas (from rue) or more. I have also experienced that state with harmalas + DMT (oral), but there it's less predictable: sometimes it has been controllable, dreamlike visions, other times it has been fully immersive realistic visions but not controllable, and other times it's more tryptamine-like.
My girlfriend experiences strong visuals on harmalas only with just 200mg.
My girlfriend experiences strong visuals on harmalas only with just 200mg.
Im confused? Im completely unfamiliar with these names of molecules? and such, but, I am under the impression your trying to reach a lucid dream state? You dont need anything other than a meditation so to speak to achieve them. You just need to concentrate and use your intent to access them, I kind of get the impression your all doing the work with extra steps. Extra steps you dont need.
Yes, you are confused. Use of these molecules and preparations is a plant-based technology for mind exploration and healing with a millennia-long history of use by humans. You can familiarise yourself with all of this. You just need to concentrate and focus your internet search engine that you have on the device you have in front of you to access this information…
…or you could try meditating on how you'd amelioriate this blind spot in your knowledge base.
Here's a starter for you:
Psychedelic Compounds Chemical and Physical Properties - DMT-Nexus Wiki
If you read the discussion more carefully, you'll see that the effect resembling lucid dreaming was noted as an observation, which then drew interest from a couple of other participants in the conversation.
You see, lucid dreaming is kind of incidental to most of these people's decision to explore what these plants and certain substances derive from them have to offer. As with many things of value, it's as much about the journey as the destination.
If you'd like to post more details about the specifics of lucid dreaming technique using meditation as a tool, please feel free to do so in a more appropriate thread.