Hello & a little account of my harmala journey so far

[Iff]

Beautiful photos, @Iff, thank you! Quite different morphology to the ones I see here. Another strain for sure.

About the time to harvest. What I can say for sure is that wait at least until the pods crack open. Afaik, most or all store sold seeds are harvested before that and are thus still not full in potency or ripe in spirit. As far as what the exact trajectory of transformation is after basic ripening, in my experience, it seems to get less "toxic"/rough, but more potent and heavy with more harmaline, which I am a great fan of. The seeds are alive; even when the branches that hold them completely die, they continue metabolism and secondary metabolite production. Very notably, this metabolism process seems to come to a halt after harvesting, and "the spirit dims down" and there is a potency and quality loss in a matter of days to weeks. İt appears so far that after December the peak is passed and the life energy and nutrients in the seeds are depleted and the potency/spirit starts weakening. September seeds, October seeds, November seeds are all different ime. Please don't take my experience as the final word and contribute your own data to help construct an objective model of rue seed quality through the months. İt most likely varies from region to region too.

İf you want to experience the full rue magic, eat the seeds right off the capsules. Mixing DMT makes it too wild and harsh but if you are in for the challenge, do as you please.

Oh I have been really going for the pods still closed because we get lots of dust storms and the slightly opened pods I had gathered had quite some sand and dust in them. And yes, I am keen on making my own observations as I go further.

Although I have not eaten the seeds before, consuming them straight from the plant might just be the full moon adventure I was looking for. I believe there's no chewing seeds? And how many pods can be eaten for a 'full rue magic' experience.

 

[dithyramb]

They need to be thoroughly chewed.

Your capsules appear clearly larger than the ones I I harvest. I have eaten up to 32 capsules. With seeds that have no potency problem, 20 capsules is enough for a very strong experience for me

 

[Iff]

They need to be thoroughly chewed.

Wow. I am sure they don't taste great but I will find out what do they taste like at some point, I guess.

Your capsules appear clearly larger than the ones I I harvest. I have eaten up to 32 capsules. With seeds that have no potency problem, 20 capsules is enough for a very strong experience for me

And how's the experience like for you?

 

[dithyramb]

İt's an immersion in your inner world, and a communication package of whatever the plant wants to share with you, or whatever is in store for you. With visions or direct "thoughts." I advise sensory deprivation of sight and sound. Depending on the strain, the main theme can be (sometimes an explosive) divine love, or a stern realignment.

About open vs closed capsules: by now don't worry about it. They are all ripened at this point of the year. And we don't have sand storms around here, cause it's not a desert I guess. That factor alone would shape the contents, energy, spirit of your strain.

 

[ommani]

Are you eating the toasted seeds?

Pretty much… I just swallow the toasted and ground seeds with water. I’ve read that toasting the seeds diminishes their potency, so I’m not sure if I’ll toast them again, but for now I’m going through a toasted batch.

 

[Transform]

I would love some visions if they come my way. Based on my past experiences with let's say mushrooms, I don't think my experiences are of visionary nature but incapacitating will have to be dedicated a day/days for
And what do you say about facial expression?

For me, the rue visions are largely far from abstract, combining waking consciousness with life-like dream scenarioes. The character of this experience is markedly different from that of mushrooms, despite there being some parallels.

At the right dose, this leads to complete immersion in imaginary situations, which brings in the part about facial expression. Sometimes I'd found myself caught up in a preposterous and stressful scenario and, after wondering how I'd got myself into such a ridiculous pickle, I'd notice that my face had become contorted into a grimace. It was surprising how rapidly these hallucinated debacles would dissolve away into nothing on adjusting my expression back to a Buddha-like smile.

There was something of a powerful lesson behind it, indeed. More recently, I've had extended moments of being able to hold several contradictory emotions simultaneously, and one possible avenue of deeper exploration with that is to tie it in with the nominally autonomic microscopic responses in the facial vasomuscular system, if that still makes sense for you

 

[dithyramb]

Digestion can take a few hours. Make sure to be on an empty stomach.

Also, with eating fresh seeds, the effects will border on classic psychedelic effects. The outer world can also look different, more colorful, high definition, and grand/divine.

 

[dithyramb]

@ommani, yeah, I am pretty much anti toasting :⁠-⁠)

But swallowing finely grounded seeds is something I have never tried and am curious about. İt is likely more efficient in breaking the seeds up. There is the absorption through the mouth part that will be missed, but for people having difficulty with the taste it is quite a bypass.

 

[Transform]

Digestion can take a few hours. Make sure to be on an empty stomach.

Also, with eating fresh seeds, the effects will border on classic psychedelic effects, the outer world can also look different, more high definition, and grand.

The other thing to be aware of at higher doses is a sensory trailing effect. Gracie and Zarkov already detailed this several decades ago, where vision takes a moment or two to catch up with eye or head movements. I've noticed that this effect extends to other sensory modalities, particularly hearing and proprioception, as well as the sense of balance - which you should be able to see, situates itself between these two. The auditory effects can be quite fascinating - I find the sound on turning the pages of a book to be quite exquisite under the influence, and this also makes it easy to understand the utility of various kinds of rattle instruments which commonly get used in ayahuasca ceremonies.

My view is that an over sensory delay (in the sound engineering sense) is occurring - and this does bring about a point of caution. The effect will interfere with your ability to navigate 3-dimensional physical space. I've found myself bumping into doors through the combination of delayed sensory inputs, as well as stumbling over the toilet. Fortunately, I have a highly trained sense of balance, otherwise both of those instances could have led to injury.

It's best to be prepared to remain stationary, even keeping a bucket handy, and perhaps a jar for urinating in.

 

[ommani]

@ommani, yeah, I am pretty much anti toasting :⁠-⁠)

But swallowing finely grounded seeds is something I have never tried and am curious about. İt is likely more efficient in breaking the seeds up. There is the absorption through the mouth part that will be missed, but for people having difficulty with the taste it is quite a bypass.

Yes, it was your thoughts on the topic of toasting that I was referring to! Swallowing the ground up seeds is easy and efficient. I like to swish them around with the water, which gives me a hit of the taste, but it wouldn't be hard to swallow them more directly, which would bypass the taste for those who really don't like it.

Another quality of low dose rue that I think is worth mentioning is its seemingly restorative capacity. For me, it can feel like being restored to "factory settings" but in a more subtle way than a big psychedelic trip, for instance.

Regarding the topic of tracers, I find that to be a good marker of having strong effects with caapi or rue, but it's been a while since I've experienced that level with either one. IME when things that aren't moving start making tracers, the effects may be a little stronger than necessary.

 

[dithyramb]

Well I've done my full moon eating fresh seeds ritual. Deeply touched and humbled by the godess.

May all others doing full moon ritual be blessed, including @Iff!

 

[Iff]

Thank you for remembering, @dithyramb. Eating fresh seeds would've required me to go for a long drive and given all the insights and advice above, I decided to sit at home with the last harvested pods - 14 for now. I think it was a bit too much of seeds to be eaten, chewed and tasted thoroughly for the first time. The seeds are quite bitter and the whole experience of chewing them was not so pleasant a start for me. I did experience some classic symptoms many have mentioned above - lights being disturbing (even the moon to an extent but it being one and huge was rather acceptable than distant multicolored lights. And the one time I experienced a bright light gave me a very clear demonstration of being in a flood of light - keeping the gaze lower helped), tiny sounds like ones coming out of electric sockets being amplified and getting annoying (putting on a little ambient music at this point was comforting) and movements slightly restricted. Lots of love for my cats breathing close by and also nausea. Next day being today had been very quiet and cheerful and the general feeling is that of a reset. Before I ate these I was quite taken by the symmetry of pods which I had not really noticed before.

Moving forward, I would like to eat perhaps 7 or lesser pods earlier in the day and without chewing preferably.

 

[blig-blug]

Something fascinating to me about that delay effect @Transform mentions is how similar it is to delayed feedback loops in video or audio. For example, how suddenly turning on the light produces a strobe effect quickly alternating between the new state (light) and the former state (darkness).

The immersive scenarios that one can get into remind me a lot of very vivid dreams. In "DMT: The spirit molecule", Strassman mentions as a side remark that harmala alkaloids seem to be produced in the body more at night. He quickly relates it to DMT, but it wouldn't surprise me if endogenous harmalas were to play some role in dreaming.

 

[northape]

Moving forward, I would like to eat perhaps 7 or lesser pods earlier in the day and without chewing preferably.

You will get much more from them by chewing. It is better to eat less but chew them properly. As they say, digestion starts in the mouth.
It is wise to meet the Spirit full-on right away and follow its guidance. You will get accustomed to chewing in no time.
Thank you for sharing your wonderful photos

 

[dithyramb]

@Iff

Thank you for chiming back. You said you have desert storms there which means your rue grows in a desert, but your capsules appear very well preserved. The ones I am harvesting now are completely open, crumbling and even moldy (this doesn't affect the seeds inside, perhaps their antibacterial+antifungal properties peak in this season). That's interesting to me.

About chewing, yeah it is a big ordeal for most people. I am just so accustomed to it and associate it with divine love. Along with likely not being digested properly, swallowing whole seeds could potentially draw out the digestion process a few more hours, and also could potentially give stomach ache. Why not just use an electric coffee grinder and swallow the powder followed by a gulp of water?

Did you go in deep meditation, did you feel a connection to the plant? Did you have a flowing inner experience?

These days I am eating fresh seeds everyday, as I continue my annual harvest. Like I said in another thread, this is the time for me to discover different strains. I have locked in to one strain now which appears superior in potency, clean feeling, and the teacher consciousness it has. I am floored and get visions with just 4 capsules, and they are smaller than the capsules @Iff posted.

@blig-blug, I would bet that endogenous beta carbolines are involved in dreaming. İn the last few years I have noticed rue always begins with "dream visions" for me. Also btw, I recall reading that some rue strains have melatonin. Hopefully we can pull out the actual study that mentions it.

 

[northape]

I recall reading that some rue strains have melatonin. Hopefully we can pull out the actual study that mentions it.

Comparison of antioxidant, phenolic profile, melatonin, and volatile compounds of some selected plant samples

 

[dithyramb]

Thank you Northape. This seems to be a different study than the one I had encountered.

 

[northape]

Thank you Northape. This seems to be a different study than the one I had encountered.

It confirms it even more that melatonin is present in rue. Why not, when it is closely related to beta-carbolines? Most likely, the same enzyme is at work, too.

 

[Transform]

Something fascinating to me about that delay effect @Transform mentions is how similar it is to delayed feedback loops in video or audio. For example, how suddenly turning on the light produces a strobe effect quickly alternating between the new state (light) and the former state (darkness).

Precisely! I've also noted this effect occurring in a similar manner with spatial awareness, balance and proprioception (as I'm sure I've mentioned before). The basic outcome of this is clumsiness, and I think that what @ommani said here

IME when things that aren't moving start making tracers, the effects may be a little stronger than necessary.

applies even more to this effects on mobility, which might be construed by some as signs of toxicity.

I do rather love those audio effects, though!

Spoiler: daft idea, but…

Has a daring psychonaut ever tried combining harmalas with the famously auditory-warping DIPT?
[THIS IS A REALLY DAFT IDEA, WE DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT DIPT's PHARMACOLOGY, PARTICULARLY ITS SEROTONIN-RELEASING EFFECTS, THUS THIS SUGGESTED COMBINATION HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BE FATALLY DANGEROUS! DO NOT GO 'ALL-IN' WITH ANY TYPE OF EXPERIMENTATION WITH THIS COMBO without first having done some serious and exhaustive background literature research!] Yeah, just a hare-brained idea based on the first and only compound that springs to mind when auditory effects are mentioned.

 

[Transform]

It confirms it even more that melatonin is present in rue. Why not, when it is closely related to beta-carbolines? Most likely, the same enzyme is at work, too.

This certainly bears some relation to the pre-cyclisation step in harmaline formation, but also raises the question - why do(es) harm(al)ine have the methoxy group at the 7-position, whereas melatonin itself would give rise to the lesser know 6-methoxy-β-carboline derivatives? While melatonin is a 5-methoxytryptamine derivative, is there a corresponding 6-methoxytryptamine precursor for harmaloids, or (and?) is there an enzymatic isomerisation process either post- or pre-cyclisation which leads to the formation of the harmala alkaloids or their putative tryptamine precursors, respectively?

Answering this will require reviewing the existing knowledge on harmala alkaloid biosynthesis; apologies for veering way off on a biochemistry tangent!