Help Me Extract Rue Harmalas

[Worzel]

I'm wanting to attempt my first Rue extraction.

Is this "BountyTek" a good guide to follow: Syrian rue extraction: Bounty TEK

I like the idea of not needing to grind the seeds, make a vacuum pump etc. Compared it to the "GordoTek" method which has a nice video, but looks like a pain filtering grinded seeds 4+ times.

There's a step in BountyTek where he filters through a "paper towel". I'm imagining this would only work with a strong, commerical type of paper towel. Like the waxy rough type you get in Mcdonalds etc. Because the kitchen towel or paper towel I buy in the UK would surely just disintegrate into a mess. It's very soft and absorbent.

 

[blig-blug]

Is this "BountyTek" a good guide to follow: Syrian rue extraction: Bounty TEK

I've skimmed it and it's perfectly reasonable, similar to many teks to be found in the Nexus.

I like the idea of not needing to grind the seeds

Yes, I think grinding the seeds is just not worth it when extracting harmalas.

I personally recommend any of these two:

Thread 'Harmalas extraction-syrian rue (by SAKKADELIC)'

Jul 31, 2015

After reading some harmalas extraction teks on this site and understanding the basic ideas in them i tried to follow a similar method but with some modifications that i made and after repeating few times it turned out to be good. i hope for this method to be helpful for all and a good contribution to the site.

-why using this method?
This method is very easy to follow, it skips all the annoying filtering and produces high yields of clean harmalas.


-short description of the method:
soak whole syrian rue seeds with water and vinegar
freeze/thaw
boil vigorously in microwave
strain through...

• Sakkadelic
• Replies: 165
• Forum: DMT Allies Extraction

• 

Thread 'Harmala extraction - unneccessary steps?'

Jun 20, 2023

Harmala extraction always includes the step of precipitating Harmala*HCl as a purification stepnamed after Alkaloid-Chemist Richard Manske. During my first Harmala extraction I totally failed at it, as the resulting crystals were way too fine to filter so it was not doing anything. I even tried a budget camping pump in order to vacuum pump it with my car-cigarette-lighter and nothing worked :lol: :lol: :lol:

From that point I simply made
- cook seeds in pH 3 water
- filter
- basify to pH 10+
- wash until neutral
- decant

And at least from the practical side I did never encounter any...

• Brennendes Wasser
• Replies: 29
• Forum: Harmalas

• 

But the one you shared should work perfectly well too.

 

[blig-blug]

There's a step in BountyTek where he filters through a "paper towel". I'm imagining this would only work with a strong, commerical type of paper towel

You can use a paper towel on top of a sieve, I've done it when I didn't have filters. But it's much better in every way to use coffee filters instead. I can't recommend to use paper towels to filter.

 

[Worzel]

I've skimmed it and it's perfectly reasonable, similar to many teks to be found in the Nexus.


Yes, I think grinding the seeds is just not worth it when extracting harmalas.

I personally recommend any of these two:

Thread 'Harmalas extraction-syrian rue (by SAKKADELIC)'

Jul 31, 2015

After reading some harmalas extraction teks on this site and understanding the basic ideas in them i tried to follow a similar method but with some modifications that i made and after repeating few times it turned out to be good. i hope for this method to be helpful for all and a good contribution to the site.

-why using this method?
This method is very easy to follow, it skips all the annoying filtering and produces high yields of clean harmalas.


-short description of the method:
soak whole syrian rue seeds with water and vinegar
freeze/thaw
boil vigorously in microwave
strain through...

• Sakkadelic
• Replies: 165
• Forum: DMT Allies Extraction

• 

Thread 'Harmala extraction - unneccessary steps?'

Jun 20, 2023

Harmala extraction always includes the step of precipitating Harmala*HCl as a purification stepnamed after Alkaloid-Chemist Richard Manske. During my first Harmala extraction I totally failed at it, as the resulting crystals were way too fine to filter so it was not doing anything. I even tried a budget camping pump in order to vacuum pump it with my car-cigarette-lighter and nothing worked :lol: :lol: :lol:

From that point I simply made
- cook seeds in pH 3 water
- filter
- basify to pH 10+
- wash until neutral
- decant

And at least from the practical side I did never encounter any...

• Brennendes Wasser
• Replies: 29
• Forum: Harmalas

• 

But the one you shared should work perfectly well too.

Thanks, so the @Brennendes Wasser Tek, is the main idea to skip the Manske and end up with a "full spectrum" product.

After the extraction I'd like to also try converting the Harmaline to THH - so am I better off keeping the Manske?

 

[blig-blug]

Thanks, so the @Brennendes Wasser Tek, is the main idea to skip the Manske and end up with a "full spectrum" product.

No, the main idea is to decant in a large volume of water. You end up with a pure product while skipping the Manske, as verified analytically in that post. I have used it successfully.

After the extraction I'd like to also try converting the Harmaline to THH - so am I better off keeping the Manske?

As long as you follow any of those two properly, you'll get a quite pure result. You can do the Manske or not, that's up to you, really. I think cycles of basify -> filter -> acidify -> filter (or BW style decanting in a large volume) are enough, but a Manske won't hurt either.

 

[Worzel]

In the @Brennendes Wasser tek (link) can't understand why you decant at step 4 i.e. before basify.

Therefore the procedure I always do seems just fine for me to create Harmalas, I never got any problems and analysis is proving too:

1. Boil seeds at pH 3 for 30 min at 80 °C
2. Strain and repeat
3. Combine and settle down particles
4. Decant
5. Basify to pH 10+

"Workup":
6. Pour Harmala-water into BIG container and fill with water
7. Wait 10 min for harmalas to settle
8. Decant and repeat

 

[blig-blug]

In the @Brennendes Wasser tek (link) can't understand why you decant at step 4 i.e. before basify.

As a way to get rid of plant matter particles and similar impurities. After boiling, the harmalas are in salt form and are water soluble. So, when you decant before basifying, you're getting rid of any non-water soluble impurities. Then you basify and decant again (the "workup" stage is basically decanting).

 

[Worzel]

Oh ok I get it, when you decant the acidified tea you get rid of the sediment and keep the tea. But when you decant after basifying, you get rid of the base solution and keep the crystals.

I was under the impression decant always means get rid of the liquid.

 

[blig-blug]

I was under the impression decant always means get rid of the liquid.

Decanting is just the separation itself. So it doesn't imply getting rid of anything in particular. And yes, you got it right now.

 

[Worzel]

Thanks @blig-blug what's a good way to decant these large volumes. In GordoTek's video he uses aquarium tubing and a shop vac to siphon it off. Purpose of the thinner tubing is to not suck up any precipitate. Is there another good method?

 

[blig-blug]

For the first decanting, the volume doesn't need to be that large, so you can use whatever you want. For the second stage after basifying, you can use any large container. I use a very large pan, and take most of the liquid out with a dipper. I don't remove all the liquid before adding more water, I only do that for the last repetition.
Aquarium tubing should be superior to this, I did it in a rather primitive way. Just be careful that any plastic that will be submerged in the basic liquid is compatible with strong bases.

 

[Prima Materia]

Manske recrystalisation is the way, if you want to end with harmala hcl for oral dosing for example. Also the salt form stores better in my experience.

@Worzel look up an auto-siphon. It's used by homebrewers to decant liquids. Might be of use.

 

[blig-blug]

if you want to end with harmala hcl for oral dosing for example

It's not necessary, as you can always dissolve it in some acidic liquid before taking it (or take the freebase directly). I use it only orally and have it as freebase.

Also the salt form stores better in my experience.

Yes, that's true. But if properly stored, freebase should store with no problems for at least a year or so.

In any case, regardless of whether the tek includes a Manske step or not, one can always add it at the end.

Thanks for the auto-siphon suggestion BTW, it seems like a good idea.

 

[Prima Materia]

It's not necessary, as you can always dissolve it in some acidic liquid before taking it (or take the freebase directly). I use it only orally and have it as freebase.

Yes, that is true. I've just always felt good having it in salt form and a ready to ingest powder without aditional steps.

 

[Worzel]

So you could do either Tek with or without a Manske and then Protocol 4 from the Van Der Sypt paper to end up with separated Harmine and THH:

PROTOCOL 4


Converting a mixture of harmine and DHH in separate harmine and THH


No pH-meter or microscope needed


Dissolve end product of protocol 1 in vinegar 7%


|


Add zinc powder and let react for 12h at room temperature


(optional: verify with UV-light that conversion has taken place)


|


Filter, discard unreacted zinc and add an excess of NaHCO3 to the mother liquor, thereby


precipitating the harmine-fraction, filter


|


add excess ammonia to the filtrate to precipitate the THH-fraction, filter and discard filtrate


|


clean up harmine- and THH-fraction separately by redissolving them in very dilute vinegar


and reprecipitating them with a minimum amount of ammonia


|


Filter and wash both residues with ammonia 3%

 

[Prima Materia]

@Worzel

I have not done the reduction of DHH (dihydroharmine) to THH (tetrahydroharmine) myself, however I have done some reading on the reductions using zinc powder. What I want to say is that it seems fine zinc powder readily oxidies with air to form zinc-oxide (ZnO) which prevents good success using it for reduction as you need Zn. Not all is lost though. The organic chemists seem to be very aware of this issue and have developed a method of washing ZnO with dilute HCl to remove the oxide and make the zinc 'active' again.

Do report, if you ever do the harmaline to THH reduction!

 

[Pumpy]

So you could do either Tek with or without a Manske and then Protocol 4 from the Van Der Sypt paper to end up with separated Harmine and THH

This is a good idea!

 

[Prima Materia]

@Worzel Thanks for mentioning the paper. It's a good source of condensed information.