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High dose ayahuasca trip with no visions - trip report and some reflections on the purge

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Sicho Naut

Esteemed member
In August I consumed 2,5g grinded SR in gel caps and a brew that equated to about 4,5g of MHRB. I had a very nice experience, although I longed for a little more intensity. It was quite a visual trip, though not overwhelmingly so. Tripped in silent darkness. Nausea but no purge.

Today, I consumed approx. 210mg harmala hcl in a gel cap and approx. 35 minutes later brew that equated to about 9g of MHRB, so double dose. (This brew was from the same cooking session as the brew from august.) Needless to say, I was expecting a lot of visions, but to my surprise there were almost none?! I am a little baffled.

However, I did have a very positive experience, with the purge being very central. For the first hour or so, I lay nervously anticipating what was about to come and also being fearful of purging, which I had a lot of resistance to and wanted to avoid. (This is why I took harmala hcl and not straight SR.) There were waves of nausea and discomfort and at times an urge to vomit that seemed distinctly suggested or 'nudged' by the plants, rather than being 'just' a bodily response. But I ignored and resisted it and the moment passed, which I then regretted because I felt that I should have trusted the instructions of the plants.

Then I thought the stomach discomfort and nausea phase had passed and I was really getting into the music that was playing (Aguas da Amazonia by Philip Glass, recommended!!). But then, it was like the plants were giving me a second chance. There were suddenly new waves of nausea and the impulse to vomit was rising-- Then it just happened. I sat up on the bed in front of my bucket and vomited a number of times. This was very intense, but also quite the relief. It definitely felt healing and invigorating on both bodily and mental levels, in spite of my previous skepticism toward and fear of purging.

In between vomiting and also after I took deep breaths, and on the out-breath, let out long sighs with sounds like 'aaaaaah', 'hmmmmmmmm', 'hooooooooo', etc. My body rather than 'I' was doing this. Then, as I started to develop a feel for releasing tension with noises on the out-breath, I (i.e. my body) started spontaneously chanting, which is not something I ever do. I am a very quiet person and a thinking-type and basically never sing or chant or anything like that-- But now it just happened and it felt fantastic, at times ecstatic.

The sounds that came from my body reminded me of Mongolian throat singing. Then I involved an imaginary audience: my small son (2,5) and his friends, which made it all the more joyful, to imagine their reactions to the strange music coming from my body :d. I also slapped my chest throughout to express the rhythm and add to the music. The rhythm and beats all came of themselves-- as if the plants were singing through me, using my body as their instrument. A very happy experience that I don't believe could have happened without the purge. It was as if the joy of being released from whatever was purged had to be expressed through the chanting.

As spontaneously as it came, the chanting stopped after a while. I tried to reproduce it a bit after but it did not feel the same at all-- I was no longer possessed.

And that was pretty much the experience. Nausea, purging, chanting. It felt great and healing and I am grateful. Although I must admit that a part of me finds it regretful that my thirst for visions was not sated, considering the high dose. This might be my first trip ever where I have nothing to write down in terms of new ideas or insights or something-- This trip was all body.

Does anyone have an explanation for this? Why was my experience so different and non-visual despite the dose being doubled?
210mg harmala hcl in a gel cap should have been enough for MAO-inhibition, right? Or could the fact that I tripped not in silence but with music have made such a big difference?

Thoughts? Similar experiences?

Thanks!
 
Helloo,

yes 210mg harmala HCL should be enough.
And brew representing 9gr wood too!! Just depends how well the actives were extracted, was it powder or shredded, coocking times..

Personally I set aside all and every expectation, just go with what comes or not.

Vomit phases always clear up the vibe imho like shedding ballast. The purge is very important in traditional aya circles, like 'a ticket' to other layers of experiencing, whatever that may be.

Sounds like a healing experience which to me is of high value.

The spontaneous voicing is special isn't it. If you ever find yourself in a phase or layer that feels not-fun, no-good, ... , voicing can break such energy states.

Good read, thanks.
 
Perhaps the extraction wasn't perfect, but not bad based on my experience in august with half the dose I consumed this time (both were brew from the same cook). That is what I find so strange- Barely anything visual this time even though half of the dose in august was visual!

My feeling toward the purge has certainly changed, although my intellect is still asking things like 'But isn't it just the relief from having made yourself sick with plant toxins that feels good? As opposed to something previously there being expelled through the purge?'. More experience will make up my mind, curious as to what aya still has in store for me :d
 
Not sure why it wasn't visual for you.

From SWIMs experience rue/mimosa is the most visual long(er) lasting psychedelic available. It provides quite a lot of visuals, with a relative sober headspace.

The sober headspace gets lost with increased dose, but by that point it is also certain to get blinded by visuals.

A possible explanation is that you might react to it differently, but do not worry, this doesn't mean you are not reaping the benefits from it, it might be just that you experience it differently.

Your report sounds a lot like SWIM experiences mescaline, a pronounced psychedelic headspace with wild imagination, racing thoughts, tribal atmosphere but visually? Quite in the background.

The preparation, and dose seems sufficient, so the conclusion would be that everybody might react to it slightly differently.

I hope you had a great trip regardless, even though it didn't really match up your expectations.

My advice would be, after you find a dosage sweet spot where the mental aspect is manageable, stick to this. Going on crazy high dosages just to have more visuals, works, but you increase your chances of the trip going south with it as well.

Happy travels.
 
To notice, if we consider a practical number of extraction of 1,5% of wood weight, then 9gr wood potentially can yield aprox 135mg deems, which is really strong.
Wood might differ, cooking methods too, ....

The purge, yes you do expel hardware and thus relief on that part as you say, but the difference in before-after on the psycho experiential part is very real imho.
 
I was browsing randomly through a book on ayahuasca and came across this:

"It is important to be aware that the ingestion of Ayahuasca doesn’t necessarily imply the legendary visions that have made this medicine popular in our times. My teacher, Don Francisco Montes, believes that when people don’t experience any visions it’s because they are receiving healing, and vice versa. The visionary aspect of this medicine is not the essential part of this work – some people are highly visual, some aren’t. Lack of visions doesn’t mean the medicine isn’t working, it’s just that it isn’t affecting the individual on the visual plane. The essence of this work isn’t otherworldly colorful visions but healing.

For some people the initial experience with Ayahuasca is simply a cleansing that is felt on the physical plane and nothing else – this may be a particularly difficult process for those who start working with this medicine in their later years and have held on to certain noxious energies for many many years. It is only when the most physical layers are cleansed that the medicine can start affecting the psyche with insights and sometimes visions."

From: 'Ayahuasca: Soul Medicine of the Amazon Jungle' -Javier Regueiro

Seems like it may apply to my experience!
 
I have the theory that the visual aspect of psychedelics is basically "wasted" or unchanneled energy, in the same way that electricity flowing through a resistor will generate heat.
 
My latest iterations developed in the directions of
"I'm not here to be entertained or wowed, I'm here with the potential to use this energy, to steer it, to create something with it, this is a palette and now I'm the painter, .... sort of"

Not saying/suggesting that any other way to go with it is lesser or bad or .... it's just me trying to be creative with a different state of being, that's all.

Creating with the energy, isn't that what the shaman does? Isn't that what Santo Daime does?
I see people here making music or drawing while under, I think that is awesome.

It first started to walk around, making movements, tiny ones, big ones, making hand gestures, making voices,....
Now I try to combine dancing on music, and it is a very physical process, it's like labor because you wanna go down. One have to invest effort, and every square inch of you body is felt a 1000times, it's tiring, .... to be honest I envie those Santo Daime dancers-singers and I'm trying to copycat their investment, be it with other music and mere non religious. But the SD people know of the needed physical investment and name it Firmeza. I try to cultivate firmeza but it's very hard.
I've got glimps of the reward, it's life changing!! But I'm learning.... not there yet, if ever.

You can't go totally overboard with doses if going this route else you will be downed and rabit holed beyond any steering potential.
 
Jees said:
My latest iterations developed in the directions of
"I'm not here to be entertained or wowed, I'm here with the potential to use this energy, to steer it, to create something with it, this is a palette and now I'm the painter, .... sort of"

Not saying/suggesting that any other way to go with it is lesser or bad or .... it's just me trying to be creative with a different state of being, that's all.

Creating with the energy, isn't that what the shaman does? Isn't that what Santo Daime does?
I see people here making music or drawing while under, I think that is awesome.

It first started to walk around, making movements, tiny ones, big ones, making hand gestures, making voices,....
Now I try to combine dancing on music, and it is a very physical process, it's like labor because you wanna go down. One have to invest effort, and every square inch of you body is felt a 1000times, it's tiring, .... to be honest I envie those Santo Daime dancers-singers and I'm trying to copycat their investment, be it with other music and mere non religious. But the SD people know of the needed physical investment and name it Firmeza. I try to cultivate firmeza but it's very hard.
I've got glimps of the reward, it's life changing!! But I'm learning.... not there yet, if ever.

You can't go totally overboard with doses if going this route else you will be downed and rabit holed beyond any steering potential.

Interesting. Thank you.

What plants/substances/trips are you talking about here? I can imagine dancing on LSD and Psilocybe but not really on MAOI+DMT. With that I just want to go inwards, some spontaneous shaking and curling around but otherwise mostly still.

And what do you mean by:

Jees said:
You can't go totally overboard with doses if going this route else you will be downed and rabit holed beyond any steering potential.
 
@murklan
The subject deserves a separate thread if not existing already, specifically about doing-something.
I'd like/need others input too how to go about it.
I might set up a new thread in near future..
 
Jees said:
@murklan
The subject deserves a separate thread if not existing already, specifically about doing-something.
I'd like/need others input too how to go about it.
I might set up a new thread in near future..

Yes good! Lets keep that for another thread.
 
Jees said:
@murklan
The subject deserves a separate thread if not existing already, specifically about doing-something.
I'd like/need others input too how to go about it.
I might set up a new thread in near future..
I love this idea too and look forward to seeing how it moves forward.
 
downwardsfromzero said:
Jees said:
@murklan
The subject deserves a separate thread if not existing already, specifically about doing-something.
I'd like/need others input too how to go about it.
I might set up a new thread in near future..
I love this idea too and look forward to seeing how it moves forward.

Me too.
I had a journey/session (oral rue tee + vaped DMT) yesterday, the first in a while. As I've written already my trips are quite different now from before, no 'other worlds' or DMT CEV at all. I find the combination rue + DMT quite manageable in a sense. I can get up and do stuff, getting tea, making a fire in a stove etc, but then when I close my eyes and lie down I return to the inner space of feelings and thoughts. But then when I'm up and around I don't feel the 'psychedelic effects' so much. Perhaps I can try to get into it while moving and dancing, but I really just want to lie down :)
 
It probably has something to do with the way DMT is absorbed by the body. Supposedly vomiting enhances the trip because the DMT can get absorbed through the esophagus mucosa, but if you purge too much, too quickly you might get a boost in intensity but with nothing much going after.
When I tried harmala + mimosa tea/DMT sometimes the experience would just not begin fully, but after eating something with starch like a piece of bread it would come in very very strong. So gastric emptying most likely has something to do with it, I don't know how well DMT gets absorbed from the stomach. Since sublingual DMT alone with harmalas does not work sublingually, we might presume DMT absorption does differ among different G-I tract portions.
Obviously questions about the percentage of DMT in your bark can arise (a 9 g team makes me shiver), or if you use SSRIs, or if repeating the same dosing method several times leads to repeat or different results.
 
I think since the stomach is acidic, DMT will be protonated and tend to stay in solution on account of its ionic charge. Once the stomach contents pass into the alkaline environment of the small intestine, the DMT.H⁺ ions get neutralised, thereby becoming lipophilic and crossing the intestinal wall into the bloodstream.
 
downwardsfromzero said:
I think since the stomach is acidic, DMT will be protonated and tend to stay in solution on account of its ionic charge. Once the stomach contents pass into the alkaline environment of the small intestine, the DMT.H⁺ ions get neutralised, thereby becoming lipophilic and crossing the intestinal wall into the bloodstream.

Never heard this before. Very interesting. Is it verified or your (very) educated speculations? If so, wonder if and how this can help finding a sure way of oral DMT?
 
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