How does intensity scale with dosage?

[Cbswe]

I know this is a very difficult question in a highly subjective area. But I'm very interested to hear what experienced users say about how the general intensity of a trip scale with the dosage.

I have had about 20 experiences with low doses of DMT, most of them at 10mg and never above 15. All of them carefully vaporized with a GVG. I have found these experiences valuable and very interesting, but I realize they are not the "real deal" in the sense that I basically haven't taken enough to blast off properly.

There is nothing more in the world that I would like to do than experience a full blown DMT trip. However, I'm quite anxious as a person and wonder if I can handle the intensity of a full dosage trip or if I will freak out and make it into a bad trip.

I find low dose (10mg) trips very very intense and I often experience fear of leaving the body etc. I have hear split opinions on how a high dose trip compares to a low dose. I heard some say that the intensity indeed increases, but not in a bad way and that your mind will basically be consumed by the experience thus making it easier to let go.

What are your thoughts about this?

 

[Felnik]

I spent a long time just working within low dose ranges. I'm a fan of working up gradually. Lower doses can give you a chance to get used to the overall weirdness of it physically. Keep in mind the whole thing is the "real " deal at any dose . Don't be too quick to go with the lure of the breakthrough. Spend some time working out
A good method that includes set and setting
And some kind of shamanic ritual of some kind that works for you. Work on deep breathing . If you keep working with this, a breakthrough is inevitable. It will be stranger than anything you can imagine. Stay calm and grounded as much as possible just observe the unfolding of it ,reserve all judgement and attachment to the experience. You have to find the sweet spot of dose that will be the tipping point for you .

But I highly encourage working around the edge of that for a while .

 

[ScientificMethod]

There is very much a direct correlation between dose and intensity; unfortunately, you don't get full control over that variation. For example, if you've been working in the 10-13mg range, then you can be certain that a 30mg dose is going to be more intense than you're used to. That said, you can't be sure if it'll be 2x, 5x, 10x, or 1,000x stronger. And even dose to dose, you'll find variation. You may or may not have experienced this in your doses so far, but if you do the exact same breakthrough dose (say 25-35mg) in every session, you will absolutely not get the same results from each trip. You may have one where you get almost nothing (that rarely happens, but it does take place from time to time) or you could get launched to the other side of a universe you didn't even know existed.

What can I say--this is a strange molecule we're working with here.

 

[SynKyd]

I believe having someone you trust completely with you as a sitter can really help execute a plan to launch (counting hits, helping you remember to take the third one, and counting the time you've held in your hits) as well as the pre-breathing and ritualistic aspects mentioned. Personally, the only times I've been scared were when I almost broke through, but thought I had lost my mind and was time-looping in my physical space and I was alone. This fearful moment has never happened when I have my spirit guide sitting with me.

Breakthroughs haven't scared me, although the return is disorienting as anything I always have a huge smile on my face and happiness in my heart when I've been to the place. If you've had 20 low-level runs then I truly think you will wonder why you were so worried once you get there. It has always seemed so familiar and warm to me even the first time........safe travels!

 

[Cbswe]

These are all great replies, all three of them. Thanks!

... And even dose to dose, you'll find variation. You may or may not have experienced this in your doses so far, but if you do the exact same breakthrough dose (say 25-35mg) in every session, you will absolutely not get the same results from each trip. You may have one where you get almost nothing (that rarely happens, but it does take place from time to time) or you could get launched to the other side of a universe you didn't even know existed.

What can I say--this is a strange molecule we're working with here.

I actually have noticed this tendency. At first I thought it was because of my weight scale being inaccurate (yes it is a .001g grade scale), but I've realized that the experiences have a lot of random parameters at each trip. It's almost like throwing dice when you inhale.

Does anyone agree with the notion that a breakthrough dose actually is more enjoyable mentally than a sub-breakthrough experience at a high dose? What are your thoughts about this?

 

[ScientificMethod]

^thry can both go either way. I have had sub threshold that I found very dark and unpleasant. In fact, the darkest was in this sub breakthrough level. On the other hand, breakthroughs are inevitably intense and can be pretty exhaustive. I have only once had a dark breakthrough experience. It was very unpleasant, but the point is that it can go either way. I do find that going for the breakthrough tends to be more with it than sitting down for a sun breakthrough, but to each his own. The only way to know for you is going to be experience.

Remember Terrance's words: "most people have survived this." Lol.

 

[HumbleTraveler]

Great questions and great responses for sure.

You sound like me, very very analytical and enjoy making comparisons by the numbers. As much expectation as you may hope to have, whether looking for some sort of baseline maybe, or for reference, etc etc, it's impossible. Nothing can prepare you for the difference between trips or really give you hope for comparison because of the infinite amount of variables involved.

For instance, I too was in the same boat as you, I was doing 10-15mg and had great experiences. I got kind of confident and said I understand this, fractals love tunnels beautiful geometry.... Ill bop my dosage up a a meager 5mg to 20 to simply intensify the vividness of what Ive already expeiernced...bzzz wrong!

The only way I can explain the difference that only 5mg, for me, had was going for a ride on a tricycle versus going for a ride on a missile. This is when I experienced my only real bad time, which was identical to what SinysterKid described. I thought I died or lost my mind, was stuck with the complete absence of time, that there was no past no future and not even a now and that there was no way back, and I was the only being to exist in what looked like a vivid color pixelated CGI simulation. That was about 10 months ago and it does still have me shaken to the point of being very very hesitant to go back without someone with me. It was very uncomfortable.

I do honestly think that I simply should have taken one more hit, but at the point of panic I was already in, I was fried. At that point I was already not "me" and felt like I had no ability to make decisions for myself. Like I was along for the ride haha, I jumped off my bed and was pacing around my room and hallway trying to get back to normal and could not calm myself.

I couldnt even tack a number onto how scaled the intensity was from my 15mg dose compared to 20mg.

So, to kind of reiterate, a sitter would definitely be great, someone you trust deeply and that you feel infinitely comfortable around. Getting some breathing practices going to totally clear your head to practice grounding yourself, and just letting go is essential. That last part is so much easier said than done once it comes time though haha. Still working on that myself.

 

[3rdI]

Does anyone agree with the notion that a breakthrough dose actually is more enjoyable mentally than a sub-breakthrough experience at a high dose? What are your thoughts about this?

my feeling toward dosage dont really apply as i find it quite variable but this is how i find the effects.

bottom end effects that just make the world breath and wobble are enjoyable outside but not so much inside.

midway effects im not normally a fan of, it seems to be neither here nor there and i dont like that, my monkey get all confused and a bit freaked out.
The only thing i find usefull about this range is that it can be good mental training, its difficult to find this type of unpleasant situation in consensus reality and when it happens with the Magic i use it to try and become comfitable in an uncomfitable freaky situation.

Propa effects, yes, just yeeessssss. lovely reality dissolving, ego melting, glorious transitions into the madness. Even when they go sideways they are mostly fine since there is no me to not like them.

Magic.

 

[TwennyBux]

Hey Cbswe
Your post reminds me of me when I first started experimenting with the spice. It's all about finding your particular sweet spot, if you know what I mean. I recently found mine and it's around 40mg using the sandwich method thru a water bong, it works wonders! But anyway I started off in the 10-15mg range and definitely had some intense experiences. I did this for so long and now I wish I had stepped it up sooner. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying you should rush anything. But what I found with different dosage levels is that the lower dosages were sometimes more uncomfortable than a breakthrough dose. Nearly every time I've come back from a breakthrough I've felt clear headed and euphoric but on the lower doses I almost feel a little "cloudy" afterwards.

I definitely understand the fear of losing yourself but once your there the fear is often lost too. And just remember your gonna come out the other side just fine

 

[Cbswe]

Thank you all again for such great answers. This is exactly what I'm looking for

Great questions and great responses for sure.

You sound like me, very very analytical and enjoy making comparisons by the numbers. As much expectation as you may hope to have, whether looking for some sort of baseline maybe, or for reference, etc etc, it's impossible. Nothing can prepare you for the difference between trips or really give you hope for comparison because of the infinite amount of variables involved.

For instance, I too was in the same boat as you, I was doing 10-15mg and had great experiences. I got kind of confident and said I understand this, fractals love tunnels beautiful geometry.... Ill bop my dosage up a a meager 5mg to 20 to simply intensify the vividness of what Ive already expeiernced...bzzz wrong!

The only way I can explain the difference that only 5mg, for me, had was going for a ride on a tricycle versus going for a ride on a missile. This is when I experienced my only real bad time, which was identical to what SinysterKid described. I thought I died or lost my mind, was stuck with the complete absence of time, that there was no past no future and not even a now and that there was no way back, and I was the only being to exist in what looked like a vivid color pixelated CGI simulation. That was about 10 months ago and it does still have me shaken to the point of being very very hesitant to go back without someone with me. It was very uncomfortable.

I do honestly think that I simply should have taken one more hit, but at the point of panic I was already in, I was fried. At that point I was already not "me" and felt like I had no ability to make decisions for myself. Like I was along for the ride haha, I jumped off my bed and was pacing around my room and hallway trying to get back to normal and could not calm myself.

I couldnt even tack a number onto how scaled the intensity was from my 15mg dose compared to 20mg.

So, to kind of reiterate, a sitter would definitely be great, someone you trust deeply and that you feel infinitely comfortable around. Getting some breathing practices going to totally clear your head to practice grounding yourself, and just letting go is essential. That last part is so much easier said than done once it comes time though haha. Still working on that myself.

This was quite unexpected! It does indeed seems we are quite similar in having analytical mindsets. What you describe indicates that the way DMT operates is that certain brain activities gets "toggled" at different levels rather than having a linear fading into the altered activity.

I haven't experienced the "total loss of reality" level of any drug yet, so it seems I should probably think twice before going for the 20mg+ range. On the other hand, I really want to know what can be expected on "the other side of the veil".

I can relate to that "letting go" aspect being really hard. Every time the 15mg doses are really intense I'm quite terrified of being pushed out of my body. Do you think it is possible to "practice" letting go on the other four classical psychedelics (acid, psilocybin & mescaline)?

 

[HumbleTraveler]

One thing I did forget to mention was my 10-15mg journeys were 2 tokes, when I did 20 I did one big fast deep breath. That too was another variable I never expected to have as big of a difference as it did!

20mg over 2-3 tokes would likely have been very different. That taught me a lot though, even 1 big toke vs 2 smaller tokes will have quite a difference. Think on/off switch of a light versus a dimmer switch and slowly bringing the intensity up. Your system is being shocked basically versus being loaded in a way thats a little more manageable.

DMT has thus far been my first and only psychedelic. And the feeling I get from freebase spice is that the comeup is really, really a very encroaching feeling, ya know? It does hit so hard and so fast, like some power is reaching into me and trying to take me. Its borderline uncomfortable haha. I wish I could just sit back and let it happen, but Im not there. Sometimes Im ok with it, but other times its not a good feeling and I have a mini-panic scenario haha. I can calm myself some times.
Once I had that reality destruction, it really sparked me to want to try some other stuff before going back that heavily, which I had no plans of originally. So I have shrooms (and mescaline HCL) that I need a rainy day to partake in, saparately of course. Im hoping to get something beneficial out of them, some calmness and anxiety ridding hopefully.

I know plenty of people have said that you cant really compare lsd/shrooms/mescaline to what DMT can do at all, and I definitely believe it. But Im not really looking to compare so much as Im hoping for some actual healing and learning to go with the flow more from the intensity of a spice trip.

 

[Cbswe]

I'd love to bump this thread, if I may. I'm thinking of climbing the dosage ladder soon. Still it would be very interesting to hear more accounts!

On some level, I realize that it is my ego that wants control over this etc. And I know that ironically the very point is to let go of the ego and the want to control things. But still, I'm also just very curious about what's common in people subjective experiences.

Couple of aspects I wonder whether ppl here recognize it, know if they scale and how much they scale:

- The complexity and thickness of the visuals. At my dosages it's mostly wireframes or semi-transparent patterns with some "burn in images" thrown in. Can it look something like this? http://www.liamkey.com/3D

- The "tongue to a battery"/electrical current-feeling in the head

- The sensation of forces "pushing" from the sides of the head

- The heavy heartbeats

- The distortion of how breathing feels. The sound of breathing becomes un-continual and "jagged" for me

- The smell and taste of the dmt smoke in the nostral and mouth area

- The sounds of machinery. It sounds like someone is turning dial nobs adjusting frequencies or something

 

[knowingsmile]

I think you should relax in your experimentation with spice. I dont think you can really have a bad experience. It just happens. You can resist it and that can be uncomfortable, but even when I think ive died on it, I don't consider it remotely bad. Im not exactly sure what you mean by freaking out -- im thinking the types of freakouts seen from LSD/mushrooms/mescaline -- and those are impossible on DMT. You should just lay there.

I think you are overthinking it all. DMT is something you just do, thinking about doing it only makes it more nerveracking. I would suggest doing in a sacred, comfortable setting and alone. I think that the vibes of other beings taint the experience and there is no reason to have them around except to catch the pipe, which has never been a problem for me.

Definitely, definitely meditate beforehand. Make sure your mind is clear and open to anything. Smoke it, and REMEMBER TO BREATHE. This is extremely important. Also, when I first got into spice, I would always notice a bit into the experience that I was clenching my body and I would release and it was so much better. So make sure you are breathing and relaxed.

Smoking DMT is an extremely loving, healing experience. There is nothing to fear. Surrender to it and relax and it will be absolutely magnificent.

 

[Cbswe]

I think you should relax in your experimentation with spice. I dont think you can really have a bad experience. It just happens. You can resist it and that can be uncomfortable, but even when I think ive died on it, I don't consider it remotely bad. Im not exactly sure what you mean by freaking out -- im thinking the types of freakouts seen from LSD/mushrooms/mescaline -- and those are impossible on DMT. You should just lay there.

I think you are overthinking it all. DMT is something you just do, thinking about doing it only makes it more nerveracking. I would suggest doing in a sacred, comfortable setting and alone. I think that the vibes of other beings taint the experience and there is no reason to have them around except to catch the pipe, which has never been a problem for me.

Definitely, definitely meditate beforehand. Make sure your mind is clear and open to anything. Smoke it, and REMEMBER TO BREATHE. This is extremely important. Also, when I first got into spice, I would always notice a bit into the experience that I was clenching my body and I would release and it was so much better. So make sure you are breathing and relaxed.

Smoking DMT is an extremely loving, healing experience. There is nothing to fear. Surrender to it and relax and it will be absolutely magnificent.

Great advice!

But what about the time dilation effect? On the outside the trip is short. But on the inside I've heard it can feel like everything from hours to years. If the terror kicks in, would I then hypothetically risk spending "years" of pure terror? What are your thoughts about this?

My own intuition on the low doses is that it's more like sliding into a dimension where time does not exist/is irrelevant rather than just making ever second feel like a minute etc. But then again, it might be different on a 30mg+ dose?


Sidenote: I've been able to start to enjoy and relax into my 10mg trips. There is a lot of geometry and colors, feelings of transformation, voices etc. I used to think the whole experience was so alien that it had a frightening overtone, but now I find it pleasant. But if what HumbleTraveler is saying is true, I guess it will be a whole different story once I up the dosage a bit more?

 

[DeltaSpice]

Years of terror? I'd throw my GVG out of the window rite now. (not)
Although I've never had a mega hyper slap, just a firm telling off once or twice.
I'd say keep doing what your doing and one day you will accidentally break through.

 

[knowingsmile]

Great advice!

But what about the time dilation effect? On the outside the trip is short. But on the inside I've heard it can feel like everything from hours to years. If the terror kicks in, would I then hypothetically risk spending "years" of pure terror? What are your thoughts about this?

My own intuition on the low doses is that it's more like sliding into a dimension where time does not exist/is irrelevant rather than just making ever second feel like a minute etc. But then again, it might be different on a 30mg+ dose?


Sidenote: I've been able to start to enjoy and relax into my 10mg trips. There is a lot of geometry and colors, feelings of transformation, voices etc. I used to think the whole experience was so alien that it had a frightening overtone, but now I find it pleasant. But if what HumbleTraveler is saying is true, I guess it will be a whole different story once I up the dosage a bit more?

IME, the time dilation is more like time doesn't matter at all rather than it lasts for years. We just say it this way to explain it.

What im getting at is that if you resist, and experience terror, it will be just that and nothing more. It will end, and when you're back you will be the same. You might be a bit shocked for a few minutes, but it is very worth the experience. It's nothing to be afraid of. The worst that can happen isn't very bad at all <-- this is what im saying.

 

[Cbswe]

I have acquired some more experience now.

At a couple of occasions (3 or 4), I felt as if I was _in_ hyperspace rather than just seeing the characteristic geometric flows in front of me.
The visuals were three dimensional (at least). Incredibly euphoric. When the effects wore off, the feeling was somewhat like being scraped together and shuffled into my body and when I opened my eyes I couldn't believe what just happened. Very strong afterglow.

I don't know if I would have been able to see the ordinary reality if I opened my eyes at any of these occasions. The experiences were simply too intense to remember to try opening them.

Is this considered to be breakthrough experiences? Or is there another level of this, radically different then what I described?
Stuff I haven't seen yet includes:
A tunnel.
"The chrysanthemum".
Machine elves resembling self-dribbling basket balls (however, I did see four figures kind of resembling this once).
Landscapes.

And it hasn't felt like I've been shot out of a cannon. However, there is definitely some movement involved.

I know..broad and difficult question, but I'd really love to hear what you experienced people have to say about it

For the record, intensity-wise: yes, these experiences where 10 out of 10 intense. But on the other hand, I felt so consumed by the experience that there is really not too much time or capacity for reflection until the trip is over.

The doses has never surpassed 20mg. At first I thought this excluded the possibility of a breakthrough. But then I read this thread where it is argued that it is indeed possible to break through on such low doses. Especially considering I have fairly low body weight (60kg/132lbs), high end equipment (GVG+flame torch) and very polished technique (have smoked over fifty, maybe a hundred times).

Any thoughts or comments of this is much appreciated. I've read all replies in this thread many times.

 

[ubizdom]

none of its real so what does it matter

 

[DoingKermit]

Propa effects, yes, just yeeessssss. lovely reality dissolving, ego melting, glorious transitions into the madness. Even when they go sideways they are mostly fine since there is no me to not like them.

Spot on.

My mind tries way too hard to make sense of it all when I am on the cusp of breaking through. It is all ways quite an absurd experience, but seems a lot more absurd when stuck in that in-between state.

I still LOVE low dose experiences in certain settings though. Sunsets have brought tears to my eyes on sub-breakthrough doses. They definitely have their place IMO.

 

[anrchy]

I think your putting too much thought into it.

You cannot prepare yourself anymore than you already have. Reading your posts it seems to me that you just need to jump. I would Def put away any thoughts of what you "want" to see or expect to eventually see. Nothing is guaranteed except that you will come back to your body with a blown mind. There are so many levels to the experience and everyone's experiences are unique.

The only way you are going to get any real answers are if you go and see for yourself. I recommend taking 15mg and vaping it. Then next time vape 20mg, then 25mg... Increase by 5mg until you receive the answers to your questions. When you breakthrough you will know.

I have never seen machine elves, a tunnel (per se), or many of the other things people speak of. I have seen many things that I have never heard anyone speak of.

Program it in your head to "not give in to astonishment", don't worry about your breathing, and go in smiling.

You can thank me later