How responsible is a shaman for your journey?

[archaic_revival_]

Hello amazing people, I need some advice.

My first ayahuasca experience was really "bad". Bad in a way that I don't ever want to repeat. I've still been attending ceremonies, but I'm not comfortable drinking more than a tiny little sip. So after that first ceremony, I haven't been having the full blown experience.

The reason my shaman believes I had a really "bad" experience was because there was someone attending the ceremony who had malicious or mischievous intentions. This person was "doing stuff".

I'm new to these ideas of energy medicine, Brujería, etc. So I'm not sure how someone other than me would be able to influence my journey, or why they'd want to inflict harm.

Is it possible that someone like that could have passed by the shaman's radar? Or should the shaman always be able to prevent energy attacks like that? I believe the shaman has good intentions, but I'm a bit concerned that something like this was able to happen.

 

[ganesh]

Hello amazing people, I need some advice.

My first ayahuasca experience was really "bad".

The reason my shaman believes I had a really "bad" experience was because there was someone attending the ceremony who had malicious or mischievous intentions.

Is it possible that someone like that could have passed by the shaman's radar? Or should the shaman always be able to prevent energy attacks like that? I believe the shaman has good intentions, but I'm a bit concerned that something like this was able to happen.

Hello Archaic revival.

There are many reasons why you can have a tough experience. A lot has to do with mindset, setting and dose. Did the drink only contain Caapi and Chakruna, or was Toe added?

Were you rested before ceremony and did you have your intentions made, was the ceremony limited to a few people, or a large group?

The simplest possability if none of the above is that energy from other people have jumped into your opened space. This is usually minimised with smaller groups.

The Curandero should have cleared the space and sung a protective arcana, but that's not to say that bad experiences cannot happen. Usually icaros and purging can help one out of a nasty experience. Care to tell us more about where you drank, etc, etc?

 

[Jees]

IMO:
group sessions have a group tune, and it's always different. There will be a certain solid characteristic from begin to end, and there will be vibes that change during the session. So a composition of steady and volatile "feel".

While someone is on the steering wheel of the bus, everyone contributes to the atmosphere to some degree. It's amazing how different individuals can have striking similar impressions, but also very opposite, all in same session. So where to begin for making statements?

It's over a year since I attended group sessions of any kind medicine. Reason is partly like yours, group sessions often leave me muuhhh. From the hundreds of individual sessions there was not one single rotten one, go figure. I wonder if group sessions are not merely an organizational effluent mainly.

Now if you have a splendid group of people and circumstances, nothing is better than such but so far I've found low chances of crossing such eventuality. Luck and predestination? Anyhow I've felt driven to individual, and maybe you can see your situation as a suggestion to drink individual too? Can't decide for you, safety first!!!

Happy life

 

[ganesh]

Just a quickie..

It's normal to have some 'bad' experiences, and some believe these encounters should be faced head on, 'deal with ones own demons', so to speak.

It's interesting to note that you talk about a Shaman's responasbility to your own Journey, but this is what Westernised ceremonies have become, based in curiosity and self exploration rather than healing real sickness: Regardless, if you are in some sort of trouble you should ask for assistence, and a good Curandero should know how to help you.

 

[travsha]

Hello amazing people, I need some advice.

My first ayahuasca experience was really "bad". Bad in a way that I don't ever want to repeat. I've still been attending ceremonies, but I'm not comfortable drinking more than a tiny little sip. So after that first ceremony, I haven't been having the full blown experience.

The reason my shaman believes I had a really "bad" experience was because there was someone attending the ceremony who had malicious or mischievous intentions. This person was "doing stuff".

I'm new to these ideas of energy medicine, Brujería, etc. So I'm not sure how someone other than me would be able to influence my journey, or why they'd want to inflict harm.

Is it possible that someone like that could have passed by the shaman's radar? Or should the shaman always be able to prevent energy attacks like that? I believe the shaman has good intentions, but I'm a bit concerned that something like this was able to happen.

Sounds like your shaman is blaming someone else instead of taking responsability for not being able to guide your ceremony well.

I wouldnt drink with them anymore and would instead find someone better.

You should always trust the facilitator you drink with. Otherwise you are probably better on your own.....

I would say best option is drinking with a good guide. Second best is drinking on your own with lots of preparation, and worst options is drinking with a bad guide, or drinking in a group that has no guide.

Brujeria is very real, but isnt usually sent to new drinkers.... More often it only really hits apprentices much. Your facilitator should be able to help you through any attack like that, otherwise they arent ready to facilitate ceremonies yet (many people start offering ceremonies before they are really ready).

Also - if the person was attending your ceremony and doing this, they would only have the abilities if they were very experienced with the medicine, otherwise their abilities would be so weak that any good facilitator would have no issues with them.... I kinda feel like the whole story is a cop-out by the ceremony leader. I dont know all the details though - maybe you should ask them more. I know if someone sat in ceremony and tried to attack me I would want to confront them outside of ceremony - did the facilitator confront or talk to this participant at all? What is the facilitator doing to right this issue?

 

[Jees]

...The reason my shaman believes I had a really "bad" experience was because there was someone attending the ceremony who had malicious or mischievous intentions. This person was "doing stuff"...

As travsha says, here that Shaman shoots in his own foot, 2 possibilities:

* there was no one doing weird stuff, you just got a bad experience which is common btw to happen as Ganesh pointed out. No use for the Shaman to ward blame in any direction;

* some one was indeed doing weird stuff and Shaman was not able to intercept.

Travsha may I ask: do you consider bad experiences possibly to happen (for example due own processes) even under the umbrella of very good shamans? I like to think yes. And I also do not consider it any shaman having the responsibility to give everyone a good experience just because he sits them.

So far for me, the guide (shaman) sets out the stage, make space, in all the artistic and intentional ways possible. This is very important. But then, at least for me so far, there is no way the guide has 100% control (responsibility) to what everyone goes trough. And I think it should not. I see a clear margin for the own process to go on, and that can be rough, and if that happens it does affect others too inevitably, no? I think that was normal conduct. Travsha do you think differently? Thanks.

PS: in that "margin" I speak of, it is to a degree, so I do consider guide (shaman) responsible for not letting stuff get out of hand too far.

 

[travsha]

Of course it is possible with any shaman to have a unpleasant experience. But the shaman shouldnt place blame on other people. Either the bad experience was just difficult healing (which isnt really bad, but just unpleasant), or the facilitator wasnt able to protect their participants.

So either the shaman is blaming someone else when it was no ones fault.... Or they arent taking responsibility for failing to manage the group energy. I just imagine what if a participant was sending bad energy to others - if I was leading that ceremony I would have some very strong words to say to that person attacking others in ceremony, and I would have apologies for the people effected.

If someone comes to your ceremony and attacks other participants - how do you not confront them about that?

 

[Jees]

OK we're on same page.

The reasons I left groups was that my process feels very personal and private. If there's 10 to 15 people I never met before, you know. I also like it very silent ceremony, usually not possible in groups. I've had so often the feeling wtf am I doing here, I don't belong in this circus LOL.

 

[Psilociraptor]

Just a quickie..

It's normal to have some 'bad' experiences, and some believe these encounters should be faced head on, 'deal with ones own demons', so to speak.

It's interesting to note that you talk about a Shaman's responasbility to your own Journey, but this is what Westernised ceremonies have become, based in curiosity and self exploration rather than healing real sickness: Regardless, if you are in some sort of trouble you should ask for assistence, and a good Curandero should know how to help you.

This 100%. Ayahuasca journeys are not supposed to be pleasant. They can be, but a big part of the trip is dedicated to emotional and physical purging. I love psychedelics for many reasons and fun is certainly one of them. But when it comes to ayahuasca, i take those trips seriously. It's hard work. It will knock you in your place by any means. But that sort of humility is not something to be feared. It is a priceless gift. That said, ayahuasca is the teacher, not the shaman. The shaman is a facilitator of a safe space. Someone to mediate the group energy and prevent physical danger. He is the host, not the guide. If you do not feel that his space is safe you should consider another ceremony. If you feel that other participants were contributing unproductive negative energy and not dealt with appropriately, you should consider another ceremony. There is no excuse for a shaman to not address unproductive behavior. But beyond that there is only so much he can do. People will project their demons and you will project yours and everybody will be affected some way or another. The group energy is not always pleasant, but that's part of it. You can not expect to heal if you don't embrace your fears.

I actually completely lost my shit my first ceremony, begging people to kill me, telling them i broke my brain and utterly disrupting the ceremony for about 20 minutes before the shaman decided his attempts at helping me were going nowhere and told me to go lie down elsewhere so they could continue... Well I came around and ayahuasca ended up becoming one of the most important experiences of my life. In fact, I was one of the only ones who showed up the next time. It took some sitting with though before it really sunk in why i was there and what I was doing. In the end a simple message like how i let my fears cause more damage than the thing i actually feared itself has gone a long way

 

[archaic_revival_]

Did the drink only contain Caapi and Chakruna, or was Toe added?

Were you rested before ceremony and did you have your intentions made, was the ceremony limited to a few people, or a large group?

Care to tell us more about where you drank, etc, etc?

@ganesh:

I definitely believe (although I can't be certain), that it only contained Caapi and Chakruna and not Toe. I definitely want to stay away from Toe (just me).

It was a large group, close to 20 people.

We drank locally, not in the jungle...with a very nice community of people. We were in a remote area, indoors, but very close to nature. The shaman is caring, and I believe has good intentions. The one odd thing is that this group is not strict on diet. No sex one day before and after ceremony, and we fill out a medical questionnaire. There is no emphasis placed on dietary restrictions. If you want to diet before and after, it is your choice. Is this a mistake?

The shaman is also gringo, which I don't have a problem with.

 

[archaic_revival_]

I know if someone sat in ceremony and tried to attack me I would want to confront them outside of ceremony - did the facilitator confront or talk to this participant at all? What is the facilitator doing to right this issue?

@travsha:

Yes, the facilitator has banned this specific member from attending another ceremony. The facilitator has mentioned that s/he would only be willing to work with this member in ceremony one-on-one to deal with issues of "darkness". But this member is not allowed to attend a group ceremony again.

 

[ganesh]

That said, ayahuasca is the teacher, not the shaman. The shaman is a facilitator of a safe space. Someone to mediate the group energy and prevent physical danger. He is the host, not the guide.

You are referring to modern day group 'gringo type retreats', where the client drinks Ayahuasca, then 'journeys', and a Facilitator mediates group energy and supposedly holds safe space. The main purpose is for people to have safe 'journeys' into a world once only the domain of the Curandero, so they may gain some inner perspective of their lives and let Ayahuasca's natural healing abilities work through, *(although this will not be the same as a trained Curandero actively removing sickness properly.)

*In contrast, a real deal Curandero does far more than just that. To them, the Ayahuasca is both a diagnostic tool for illness, and something to energetically open up the client so that they can go to work and suck out disease and sing illness away. This is completely different to what you are saying, this is actively curing the sick, not 'journeying', and leaving a vague guesswork to Ayahuasca.

The one odd thing is that this group is not strict on diet. No sex one day before and after ceremony, and we fill out a medical questionnaire. There is no emphasis placed on dietary restrictions. If you want to diet before and after, it is your choice. Is this a mistake?

The shaman is also gringo, which I don't have a problem with.

This is usually fine. The biggest concerns prior ceremony are drugs and pharmaceutical meds that may dangerously interact, although some foods containing tyramine may or may not give you a rotten time.
It's hard to be certain what went wrong but presumably the 'shaman' knew something about 'that' person, probably from similar complaints in other ceremonies. God knows, maybe it was just you needing to face some fears. If i was you i would listen to the above advice, try other ceremonies elsewhere. I don't have any issues with Gringo's working with Ayahuasca as long as they are properly trained, therefore i would question their training first because they may lack the proper skills required to be both safe and useful.

 

[travsha]

That said, ayahuasca is the teacher, not the shaman. The shaman is a facilitator of a safe space. Someone to mediate the group energy and prevent physical danger. He is the host, not the guide.

You are referring to modern day group 'gringo type retreats', where the client drinks Ayahuasca, then 'journeys', and a Facilitator mediates group energy and supposedly holds safe space. The main purpose is for people to have safe 'journeys' into a world once only the domain of the Curandero, so they may gain some inner perspective of their lives and let Ayahuasca's natural healing abilities work through, *(although this will not be the same as a trained Curandero actively removing sickness properly.)

*In contrast, a real deal Curandero does far more than just that. To them, the Ayahuasca is both a diagnostic tool for illness, and something to energetically open up the client so that they can go to work and suck out disease and sing illness away. This is completely different to what you are saying, this is actively curing the sick, not 'journeying', and leaving a vague guesswork to Ayahuasca.

In my experience going to a number of different "gringo type retreats" every single curandero I have met does both of these things. Most of the shamans holding ceremony at the gringo retreats have the same training as shamans hosting ceremony for locals, and in my experience - most of the shamans treating gringos in Peru actually have more experience then the village shamans (I have sat with both). They get more business which turns into more experience. Many gringos also have more difficult and complicated problems to work on to tell you the truth (the natives have gotten more spiritual care through the generations and have less family/genetic curses for example).

I usually sit with Shipibo healers and they sing to everyone whether they drink Ayahuasca or not, and they dont really care if you drink Ayahuasca - it is optional. I even know multiple gringos who trained under the Shipibo who work the exact same way - they sing in Shipibo and they dont care whether or not you drink any Ayahuasca because they will sing away the illness either way.

 

[ganesh]

In my experience going to a number of different "gringo type retreats" every single curandero I have met does both of these things. Most of the shamans holding ceremony at the gringo retreats have the same training as shamans hosting ceremony for locals, and in my experience - most of the shamans treating gringos in Peru actually have more experience then the village shamans (I have sat with both)

Well that is good to hear. I wonder what problem the o/p was then experiencing? Having said that i do wonder about those big groups drinking with a Gringo playing guitar... i wonder about wether those are just for 'journeying' like hippies, or real proper healing with sucking and all that jazz...:lol:

 

[travsha]

Most shamans I have met do not do sucking. I have never heard of a Shipibo doing any sucking for example, and I have never heard of San Pedro shamans doing it either (though some might). I think only certain people do that.

Most shamans I met do everything by singing and blowing smoke.

Playing with a guitar I doubt someone would be working directly on one person, but they could still be calling doctors into the ceremonial space. Mestizo style usually focuses more on calling doctors into the ceremonial space rather then working directly on people, so it could be someone who learned the Mestizo style or it could be someone who just plays guitar and didnt learn any traditional style.

I know indigenous shamans who do many icaros with charango, flute or harmonica, and sometimes even guitar. Using instruments can work very well for certain types of work.

I know there are some new age people that just play pretty music to inspire people more then playing medicine songs.... Not my style, but I dont know that anything is wrong with it. I would prefer more intentional music personally, but I dont think everyone has the same preference.

 

[anne halonium]

100%
i lead all festivities as official hostess when my group trips.

my peeps accept no substitutes.
not all trip leaders are good trip leaders.

if one doesnt work for you , get another one.