How to come to terms with nihilism?

[Rock.0]

Has anyone been left with the heavy feelings of nihilism after a psychedelic session? I'm really interested in your experiences and how you have/have not come to terms with it? Thanks

 

[Icyseeker]

Psychedelics can show you a larger picture of reality but then you realize that you are just a small part in that picture. This can leave people with nihilism when they realize how small of a part they play.

If you take a look at LSD it is on the micro level. If this small drug can drastically change your perception. Imagine how much a single person can effect the system of humanity. That is how I like to look at it anyway.

 

[Grey Fox]

I've struggled with this at points in life. But it has always felt most pronounced after the death of a loved one. There is a real tension in life that is caused by our awareness of death. Its coming for all of us eventually. And that forces a search for meaning. At least it does for me.

The very real possibility exists that we are just sentient animals, with a brief time here and then nothing more. It can be challenging to find meaning when confronted by that prospect. I've struggled with this for years, beginning in childhood when an unexpected death occurred in my family.

These are hard matters. I am still seeking the answers.

But psychedelics have a way of bringing these questions to the forefront of my mind. I am learning to live with a more open and honest awareness of the unresolved tension. But it is not an easy way. But I feel it to be the truest.

 

[dragonrider]

What kind of nihilism do you mean? Is it a state of dissociation you are refering to?

Because that is not the same as just pure negativity. The whole "everything is shit, so why not X" attitude, that i find very difficult to rhyme with the psychedelic experience.

Dissociation is effectively ego-loss, wich according to many people, is in itself a great achievement.

Accustomed to my ego as i just happen to be in my day to day life, i don't realy feel that is for me to judge whether this is realy the case. But i do know from experience, that it can be a little unsettling.

There is the potential however, for it to be a learning experience. It allows you to see things, as icyseeker said, in a bigger frame. It may take some time to integrate that bigger picture, but it happens automatically.

 

[Spiralout]

The original poster, Rock, never mentioned dissociation, dragonrider.

I can sympathize with your feelings Grey Fox. This is honestly the crux of the problem I have with life. Time goes by faster and faster and I feel like I need to figure out just what it is I need to do.

Nihilism doesn't always lead to depression or negativity, but it certainly does most of the time; especially if you ruminate on it. If you truly believe that life is meaningless, are you then not able to give it your own meaning? I do agree that life may be meaningless; in fact, nothing we interact with has any meaning until we attribute a meaning to it. So if you give things meaning, a priori, then why not pay attention and see what seems to be most meaningful to you?

Welcome Rock

 

[donfoolio]

Some thoughts by Nietzsche:

What I relate is the history of the next two centuries. I describe what
is coming, what can no longer come differently: the advent of nihilism.
This history can be related even now; for necessity itself is at work
here. This future speaks even now in a hundred signs, this destiny
announces itself everywhere; for this music of the future all ears are
cocked even now. For some time now, our whole European culture has been
moving as toward a catastrophe, with a tortured tension that is growing
from decade to decade: restlessly, violently, headlong, like a river
that wants to reach the end, that no longer reflects, that is afraid to
reflect .

5. The nihilistic conseguences of contemporary natural science (together
with its attempts to escape into some beyond) . The industry of its
pursuit eventually leads to self-disintegration, opposition, an
antiscientif ic mentality. Since Copernicus man has been rolling from the
center toward X.*

The most extreme form of nihilism would be the view that every belief,
every considering-something-true, is necessarily false cause there
simply is no true world. Thus, a perspectival appearance whose origin
lies in us (in so far as we continually need a narrower, abbreviated,
simplified world) .

-That it is the measure of strength to what extent we can admit to
ourselves, without perishing, the merely apparent character, the
necessity of lies.

To this extent, nihilism, as the denial of a truthful world, of being,
might be a divine way of thinking.

Given these two insights, that becoming has no goal and that underneath
all becoming there is no grand unity in which the individual could
immerse himself completely as in an element of supreme value, an escape
remains: to pass sentence on this whole world of becoming as a deception
and to invent a world beyond it, a true world. But as soon as man finds
out how that world is fabricated solely from psychological needs, and
how he has absolutely no right to it, the last form of nihilism comes
into being: it includes disbelief in any metaphysical world and forbids
itself any belief in a true world. Having reached this standpoint, one
grants the reality of becoming as the only reality, forbids oneself
every kind of clandestine access to afterworlds and false divinities--
but cannot endure this world though one does not want to deny it.

When after the encounter with several divine beings, illumination and bliss,
you came to that place, that buddhists call "sunyata", where you know that nothing is true,
that all those "spooks" (how Stirner put it) are probably only projections of your
own mind, you get a step deeper into the rabbit hole.

"Everything comes from being, except being, that comes from non-being" as the TaoTeKing puts it.

The Indians say that Ayahuasca is a great liar.

Nihilism, in this sense, is the conclusion that all this projections lack of isness, they are
only spirits, symbols of something far more incomprehensible because it goes far beyond
our understanding.

Nothingness is some kind of spiritual approach to these realms. This is the coincidence of possibilites. When you get aware of this, you make a big step in spiritual practice.

It's all lies...

 

[dragonrider]

The original poster, Rock, never mentioned dissociation, dragonrider.

Dissociation is also dissociation of meaning.

Psychedelics have dissociative effects, usually somewhat milder than drugs labelled as "dissociatives", like ketamine or salvia. Though they can be just as powerfull, as we all know.

But even in sub-breakthrough doses, there are very noticeable dissociative effects. These are things like experiencing a dissociation between words and their meanings, or objects and their usual meanings (like a cross becoming just a conjunction of two lines instead of a religious symbol, a loaf of bread becoming just a clump of organic matter instead of food, etc). Or even a dissociation of meanings from other meanings, or (parts of) ones own identity.

Everything literally becoming meaningless.

This can extent to the experience of being a counscious being. You are no longer "you", you are just counsciousness. Up to the point even, where counsciousness is no longer counsciousness, but just experience, or information.

These are extreme forms of psychological dissociation, sometimes described as "the void".

Dissociation comes in many forms and sizes, and i think it can result in a kind of nihilism that is marketly different from just pessimistic nihilism. It is not the same as the "no future" mentality. And it is also not the same as moral cynicism. These are just ordinary psychological traps. Often in a sense a cultivation of some kind of victimhood to dodge the responsibilities of life.

Having experienced pure meaninglesness is something much more fundamental. Much more disturbing and unsettling. But also something with greater prospects. A greater potential for being turned into something positive.

 

[Grey Fox]

Has anyone been left with the heavy feelings of nihilism after a psychedelic session? I'm really interested in your experiences and how you have/have not come to terms with it? Thanks

I dont think this is dissociation that the OP is talking about. But since he hasnt been responding, perhaps we will never know.

This is the main definition of nihilism according to Merriam-Webster:

"a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless".

 

[dragonrider]

Has anyone been left with the heavy feelings of nihilism after a psychedelic session? I'm really interested in your experiences and how you have/have not come to terms with it? Thanks

I dont think this is dissociation that the OP is talking about. But since he hasnt been responding, perhaps we will never know.

This is the main definition of nihilism according to Merriam-Webster:

"a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless".

But i think that IS dissociation. Or at least the result of it.

It is exactly that. If you see your father, and he is no longer your father but an ordinary man, that is dissociation.
If you look at things that matter to you, and they no longer matter, that is dissociation.

You may not realise that you are dissociating, but when psychedelics are involved, that is probably what you are doing.

Otherwise you would probably not experience nihilism, because one meaning would have merely been replaced or put into perspective by another: if you'd suddenly realise that things that matter a lot to you, actually have very little importance in the grand scheme of things, then you do not realy experience nihilism. Things haven't lost their meaning or value, you have only become aware of there being so many other things of even greater meaning and value.
Your existance isn't senseless or useless, it is just that "your" existance is now seen in the light of "existance". And existance has so much more sense and meaning than just only your existance. There still IS sense.

 

[Rock.0]

Thanks for the responses. It's comforting to know that others have also been through this.
A bit more context on my experiences might help.

I've had 3 trips lead to nihilistic thoughts. My first large dose mushroom trip (approx 4g) about 2 years ago was the heaviest. I felt like absolutely nothing mattered, life, death, being good vs being bad, preserving the environment vs trashing the place had no universal consequence whatsoever. In the end, entropy just takes it's toll. I was left feeling pretty hollow for quite a while, and didn't touch a psychedelic in at least 6-12 months.

The next one was also mushrooms, but a smaller dose, and I guess I arrived into the trip with the 'knowledge' of the last one. I recall feeling like I'd come face to face with Life itself, with a Capital L. I came to 'understand' that all the various lifeforms across space and time are just mere expressions of itself, and again, living vs dying was inconsequential. 99% of all species to ever live on Earth are now extinct, and I, nor the human race is no more or less important than a single celled bacteria that lived a billion years ago. This trip left me feeling nihilistic, yes, but less weighed down by it, almost optimistic nihilism, similar to this video:

The most recent trip with this theme was with about 30mg of DMT, where I had my first (I think) full breakthrough. Again, I met with the familiar entity of Life. Similar story as Nihilistic Trip #2, only a lot more colourful and interesting to look at. Left me feeling a bit down on the world, but I've mostly come out of that with a lot of self reflection and journaling.

I'm at a place now where most of the time, I'm able to generate my own meaning in life through my job, learning, socialising etc. But when I go through tough times, like recently with the COVID lockdowns causing financial stress, is when I start questioning what the point of it all the difficulty is? The scariest part was when I actually had passive suicidal ideations, as in, I thought, what was the point of existing right now? Thankfully that was pretty much a one off, but it was enough to realise that my nihilistic beliefs aren't so benign.

So is that the trick? Just keep yourself distracted by all the fun/interesting things to do in this life?

Psychedelics can show you a larger picture of reality but then you realize that you are just a small part in that picture. This can leave people with nihilism when they realize how small of a part they play.

If you take a look at LSD it is on the micro level. If this small drug can drastically change your perception. Imagine how much a single person can effect the system of humanity. That is how I like to look at it anyway.

I can resonate with this, the feeling of being so small and insignificant, and I like your reframe. And my question from here is, what is so special about humanity?

I am learning to live with a more open and honest awareness of the unresolved tension. But it is not an easy way. But I feel it to be the truest.

I think I too struggle with the unknown and unresolved. I am aware that no one can ever truly know what the putpose of life is, and I am basing my nihilistic beliefs off what is scientifically understood. I think, as you put it, psychedelics just brought it all to the forefront of my mind. But none of this makes it fact, it's still completely unknown, and I think that is one of the most difficult things. Maybe getting comfortable not knowing is what I need to work on.
I remember hearing Jordan Peterson say once, in reference to nihilism, "What if you're wrong about it, what if everything you do really does matter?"

What kind of nihilism do you mean? Is it a state of dissociation you are referring to?

Because that is not the same as just pure negativity. The whole "everything is shit, so why not X" attitude, that i find very difficult to rhyme with the psychedelic experience.

Dissociation is effectively ego-loss, which according to many people, is in itself a great achievement.

Accustomed to my ego as i just happen to be in my day to day life, i don't really feel that is for me to judge whether this is really the case. But i do know from experience, that it can be a little unsettling.

There is the potential however, for it to be a learning experience. It allows you to see things, as icyseeker said, in a bigger frame. It may take some time to integrate that bigger picture, but it happens automatically.

I'm not sure I understand your question. My version of nihilism is that, our existence is insignificant, it was likely by pure chance that we came into being, we will one day be vapourised, and it has absolutely no effect on the rest of the universe. We tell ourselves stories that are comforting, that we should help the human race thrive, that we need to live more sustainably, but is that even possible, does it even matter? Are we just inflating our own self-importance?

 

[dragonrider]

But that kind of nihilism is actually quite easy to counter. Because it doesn't matter if our existance is insignificant from some "objective" point of view. It only matters if it is insignificant to us.

And that happens not to be the case, because we are programmed to care about our own existance. And these feelings that we just happen to have are very real.
And these feelings extent beyond just the sake of our own survival.

It doesn't matter that god is dead. What matters is that you probably care about the world because you are a part of it. And therefore the state the world is in, is important to you. And for me, the same happens to be the case, so that makes it a collective truth we share.

 

[Icyseeker]

Humanity matters to me because I am human and have to deal with humans until the day I die. Same goes for you. I think that if we as a humanity can wisen up we can make the place a lot more lovelier than the it currently is. So I try to reflect the qualities I value in human beings in hopes that others might follow suit.

 

[AikyO]

Some parts of nihilism are
evidently rooted in dissociation.
There is a feeling that keep us from
being there and we observe things from a distance.
The mind has closed itself from
the world and sees birth as only vain.
This resonates highly with our
modernity where through countless
tools, for the mind and the body,
we observe ourselves and
the world as not being
parts of it.
If this type of dissociation can
occur under psychedelics, it is
never where it ends and always
where it begins, where flowing
back into our bodies ever more fully
from which the meaning of the world
blossom and can be translated into
our thoughts and action, their consequences.
This understanding need no more
than to be
poetically true and moving accordingly
to the beats of the world.
To be close to touch and the obscure
where the realms of sensation and ineffable
intertwining, here and out, let us hear in quite some time, our quiet hearts.

You just want to be there ...
"But where is there?"
It is where, you, always fall

Again, I'm gonna make an apology of the old Chinese, that have put a form that is definitely preventing this sort of nihilism. It is entirely disconnecting sound from vision, so preserving the lifefulness of the voice and not falling in the trap of making fixed associations. It is abstract and does not injure the mind relation to the body, by hurting the latter through false comfort and simplicity. But most of all, it never seeks to float, to be up there hovering above, for as long as possible, never endingly striving forth, seeking more, drifting ashore, far from the land, stretching its stand, reaching his hand to the sun; that is not the path, and so it rather chooses, not right nor left '
but
to
fall
.
.
.

 

[acacian]

For me pscyhedelics have done the complete opposite and more filled me with this feeling that my life is a journey of attaining "sacred truths" about myself and the universe. They have opened my eyes to the absolute grace of nature which in itself brings meaning to my life too. If anything makes me feel nihilistic its probably more dissociative compounds like ketamine.. though this is more of an effect during the experience .. not so much afterwards

 

[dragonrider]

For me pscyhedelics have done the complete opposite and more filled me with this feeling that my life is a journey of attaining "sacred truths" about myself and the universe. They have opened my eyes to the absolute grace of nature which in itself brings meaning to my life too. If anything makes me feel nihilistic its probably more dissociative compounds like ketamine.. though this is more of an effect during the experience .. not so much afterwards

Yes, i noticed this effect of dissociatives as well. They make you care less about anything.
It is actually quite a scary effect of these type of substances, when you think of it.

 

[Justsomedude]

I don't think nihilist is something you need to move away from, but rather embrace.

When you fully realize "meaninglessness", you then realize it goes both ways, it loses its meaning as a negative, and becomes liberating.

For a long time I've sought some form of "absolute truth", an objective value, a immutable something, in vain.

So I've come to think that living in this "desert" devoid of meaning is empowering, it enables you to do things in a vacuum because you will them to be so, not because of any other particular reason.

 

[acacian]

For me pscyhedelics have done the complete opposite and more filled me with this feeling that my life is a journey of attaining "sacred truths" about myself and the universe. They have opened my eyes to the absolute grace of nature which in itself brings meaning to my life too. If anything makes me feel nihilistic its probably more dissociative compounds like ketamine.. though this is more of an effect during the experience .. not so much afterwards

Yes, i noticed this effect of dissociatives as well. They make you care less about anything.
It is actually quite a scary effect of these type of substances, when you think of it.

Yeah. I enjoy dissociatives but tbh they kinda give me the creeps.. like I'm gazing at something I really shouldn't be.. K-holes can be very creepy.. sometimes really beautiful too though

 

[Rock.0]

Thank you guys, I really enjoy hearing all your perspectives on this, I am taking it all in and it is helping me feel more positive. I really do now feel like the nihilism I was experiencing wasn't the complete picture, I still had a lot of unresolved questions and feelings, and through facing the discomfort and fear in various contexts (psychedelic experiences, meditation, journaling and working with a psychologist) I feel like more of the picture has unraveled. I have found comfort in being uncertain about what it all means, and yeh, it is kinda liberating. I feel like I am assigning my own purpose to things, it feels energising.