How To Stop The Agressivness

[Dovy91]

(please forgive my spelling)
Hello I am new to this forum and SWIM wanted to ask something and this is what he asked:

"I have recently tried my first time Ayahuasca, and I've done it with great respect fallowed the diet for 5 days and fasted the day before the night of taking it, and while preparing it. I used Syrian rue and Psychotria Viridis, and while I had in the beginning a wonderful experience where I now fully understand what Jesus meant that we are all children of God/Goddess I want to address a big concern of mine.

The last two hours of the experience were terrible, and while I don't mind facing my fears, and going in trough the darkness to find the light within me, I am concerned with the fact that I became violent... I hurt my girlfriend who I LOVE VERY MUCH, though not anything severe I regret it even though she has forgiven me. If I could go deep within my psyche and face these fears and not act them out in the 'real' world (or run out with my underwear outside in the night), I would be willing to continue this as part of my spiritual journey. I really need help, because it should create love not fear and pain in those around you, I don't mind suffering 2 times worse just for the sake of growing and not acting it out by hurting, screaming, and running outside."

So that is SWIMS dilemma, could anyone help him out, or have any thoughts or suggestions?

 

[Kronas]

I would suggest changing your setting, instead of doing it inside, be in the middle of the woods where you can run around naked and release all energy. I personally would never consider doing Ayahuasca inside, even though I've yet to do it, I know it wants you to be in nature. Bless up brethren

 

[Dovy91]

Though that is a good idea, I don't think SWIM is able to do that at the moment. Will a bigger dose knock SWIM out enough, or is it really the fact that he was inside that he was affected like that? Is running around in underwear common with Ayahuasca?

 

[DMT Psychonaut]

What do you believe was the source or reasoning behind your aggressive/violent behavior?

I had a similar frightening expereince when my roomate and myself did mushrooms about a month ago. We decided to do the shrooms kinda on the spot, wondering if we should've waited till later or not. Then during the trip we had a long conversation about where our lives were going and how we were growing up. This roommate of mine has been a long-time childhood friend. Well our conversation also got religious somewhat. It was the first time I admitted to him that I didn't comepletly believe in the Christain God. At some point the trip started turning bad for him and he believed he was seeing demons and was thinking he was an evil person and was contemplating killing himself or atleast sayin out loud "I'm not going to kill myself". I was trying to convince him that we were both "Good" people and he didn't need to do that. Then he went into his room yelling, "God save me", really loud. He was in there for quite awhile after he finally came out. He sat next to me on the couch and told me of the terrifying experience he was having and how he was seeing demons. Then he said he asked God to save him and it all went away.
Well then it got really bad after he asked me if I had been saved. I should've just lied and told him yes but I was trying to be honest here and said I did when I was youner but only felt it was because my mom wanted me to. So he started going on a rampage yelling at me telling me I needed to ask God to save me. So I was like okay, "God save me", then he'd be like no say it! "God save me" just reapeting it over and over and getting louder. No matter how many times I said it he wasn't convinced I had said it or was saying it right. Then he got really violent, said, "If you don't say it right now I'm going to punch you" he punched me a couple of times in the face. I was trying to stop him and he just kept repeating it. Then I was trying to get away from him or calm him down and we ended up fumbling around our apartment. At one point he had me pinned against the wall choking me, telling Satan to leave me. Eventually I convinced him we needed help from my mom. So he ran out of the apartment yelling and went and got his grandparents and my mom (The most religious people we know) because he believed I needed to be saved. I never blamed him for the whole incident because I was able to stay in touch, and I realized he was having a bad trip. I'm just glad our neighbors didn't call the cops and noone got seriously injured.

I believe this was just an example of how set can go wrong. I went in with the mind set of having a healing experience and he seemed to have some deep personal issue underlying the event which took a turn for the worst.

 

[Limeni]

I have not been lucky enough to have the right opportunity to experience Ayahuasca myself yet, but I would say that 'Ayahuasca' is actually strictly-speaking Caapi vine, rather than Rue. Everything I have ever read suggests that Caapi is a warmer experience than Rue, so that might be the next thing you could try to see if that makes things better for you.

Also I would say, as you are aware of your problem-area, you could ask for help with that problem as you go into the experience. In my experience with other plants, I find "the plant" will show you how you can heal yourself.

Alternatively you may want to sort the problem out before you go on with psychedelics, as the violence / underpants-thing is a bit of a worry.

Of course what you really need is to have the Ayahuasca with a curandero with a lifetime's experience...but sadly our culture burned all those in the Middle Ages! :?

 

[Dovy91]

Well it was quite bizarre, SWIM was locked in his own mind. It seemed that he and his girlfriend were the only two beings in the universe because they were God and that because he took Ayahuasca he woke up consciously in to his reality and that he had to experience infinity every night before he could return, and thats why we returned every night becouse we couldn't bare the purgatory...

It was sooo complex, that he was trapped in his own mind. It's like anything he thought something that didn't make sense happened, and certain things would fade out... like when he ran outside he heard cars but the cars blurred out in the environment as if they did not exist... It was so complicated, it was everything swim ever feared... And his girlfriend begin to be no-existent, as if she was there just to keep him trapped... Fear of being alone, fear of being stuck for an eternity. Time didn't move, when he looked at the time it was blur:31, later it was 4:blur1... then the time just didn't function in his brain and he couldn't make sense of it. Everything he did he was stuck in it, and everything he ever tried he already tried and had to repeat for an eternity... and then he realized he has already done it, and there was nothing else to do and we were all trapped within our self, and everyone sleeps so they may forget that they were stuck in an eternity, but before u wake up u have to experience it for an infinity, and because he took Ayahuasca he has to be tortured in that mind set for an eternity. And that God made a mistake by trying to experience things... It was like taking the movie Inception and twisting it according to his deep seated fears. He eventually got out when he told himself he just has to Love, and he began to Love his girlfriend, and crying and apologizing for everything he did during his bad trip. (It was worse then he ever can explain it in words to be)

 

[Global]

When I first took ayahuasca (rue and mimosa - "ayahuasca" is traditionally caapi and psychotria yes, but you'll find it's common nowadays to refer to ayahusaca as the combination of MAOI and a mimosa or psychotria beverage), I had only two brief experiences with smoking DMT several months prior. My ayahuasca experience lasted 8 full hours. I took it at midnight and it wore off by 9 in the morning, and boy was it a long night. It took forever and it felt like it would never end. I began to feel like I was going crazy, having schizoid thoughts. For me what really made it so bad was the nausea that persisted throughout the entire experience from start to finish. I'm convinced if I weren't so nauseous, the infinitely long experience would have been much more bearable and probably quite pleasant. I felt like a nauseous zombie. Anyway after acquainting myself much more with DMT through numerous smoked experiences, when I returned to oral DMT (first pharmahuasca and later ayahuasca), I found the experience not only much more easy to handle, but they are among my most blessed, blissful experiences I've ever had. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself more with the effects (which granted can be somewhat different than when smoking it without MAOIs), or what I would also recommend is that if your thoughts start getting to you and everything seems to be too much and whatnot, often the best medicine is some kind of distraction. Listen to music, or turn the TV on or take a shower (if you feel physically safe to do so) or talk with someone. I often find that listening to music is an ample distraction from unpleasantly racing thoughts, and it can provide a good pivot point to steer the trip in a different direction.

 

[ragabr]

You have to own the aggressiveness inside you. It's not like Rue is a deliriant that brings out behavior you would normally do. Find a way that you can create the mental space to allow the anger/fear/aggression to rise up, without having to give expression to it. Watch it.

Regarding the suggestion to do it out in the woods, I wouldn't take it. Especially from someone who doesn't have any experience with oral harmalas. If you have to purge, it can go on for hours, from both ends, and it's really, really nice to be able to have a toilet and a shower there for that.

If you take a solid amount, you're not going to be running around.

 

[013akilper]

I often find that listening to music is an ample distraction from unpleasantly racing thoughts, and it can provide a good pivot point to steer the trip in a different direction.

while i do agree this is a good idea to curb a bad experience i would like to add to try and choose the music wisely if at all possible in that state of mind. one example i have is while peaking on a large dose of very potent mushrooms a few years ago i had an album by the band pelican playing and i had a massive grin on my face while i was sitting there listening to the music and felt so amazaing but eventually that album ended and the cd player switched to the next cd which was the great annihilator by the band swans and when it got to the third track She Lives! it sent me into a downward spiral of an unimaginable mind fuck...

i dont really know what to tell you about turning violent though. i personally have never turned violent while on anything but then again all of my strong experiences i was solo so who knows what could have happened

 

[jamie]

What do you believe was the source or reasoning behind your aggressive/violent behavior?

I had a similar frightening expereince when my roomate and myself did mushrooms about a month ago. We decided to do the shrooms kinda on the spot, wondering if we should've waited till later or not. Then during the trip we had a long conversation about where our lives were going and how we were growing up. This roommate of mine has been a long-time childhood friend. Well our conversation also got religious somewhat. It was the first time I admitted to him that I didn't comepletly believe in the Christain God. At some point the trip started turning bad for him and he believed he was seeing demons and was thinking he was an evil person and was contemplating killing himself or atleast sayin out loud "I'm not going to kill myself". I was trying to convince him that we were both "Good" people and he didn't need to do that. Then he went into his room yelling, "God save me", really loud. He was in there for quite awhile after he finally came out. He sat next to me on the couch and told me of the terrifying experience he was having and how he was seeing demons. Then he said he asked God to save him and it all went away.
Well then it got really bad after he asked me if I had been saved. I should've just lied and told him yes but I was trying to be honest here and said I did when I was youner but only felt it was because my mom wanted me to. So he started going on a rampage yelling at me telling me I needed to ask God to save me. So I was like okay, "God save me", then he'd be like no say it! "God save me" just reapeting it over and over and getting louder. No matter how many times I said it he wasn't convinced I had said it or was saying it right. Then he got really violent, said, "If you don't say it right now I'm going to punch you" he punched me a couple of times in the face. I was trying to stop him and he just kept repeating it. Then I was trying to get away from him or calm him down and we ended up fumbling around our apartment. At one point he had me pinned against the wall choking me, telling Satan to leave me. Eventually I convinced him we needed help from my mom. So he ran out of the apartment yelling and went and got his grandparents and my mom (The most religious people we know) because he believed I needed to be saved. I never blamed him for the whole incident because I was able to stay in touch, and I realized he was having a bad trip. I'm just glad our neighbors didn't call the cops and noone got seriously injured.

I believe this was just an example of how set can go wrong. I went in with the mind set of having a healing experience and he seemed to have some deep personal issue underlying the event which took a turn for the worst.

Wholy shit man! Your friend sounds like they have some serious mental health problems.

 

[Dovy91]

Ya, SWIM said he had an intuitive hunch that he should go with the original Ayahuasca, but he only went with half, maybe thats why half of it was grate the other one a bit psycho, but i can trully say i know what its like to be a schitso, and they need a lot of love.

 

[Global]

Ya, SWIM said he had an intuitive hunch that he should go with the original Ayahuasca, but he only went with half, maybe thats why half of it was grate the other one a bit psycho, but i can trully say i know what its like to be a schitso, and they need a lot of love.

I really doubt this. A lot of people claim a lot of big differences between rue and caapi. Subjectively I can't tell the difference. If you dosed me and after the experience asked me which MAOI was given to me, I'd probably have a 50/50 shot of getting it right. It would be interesting to design an experiment like this, but you'd have to make sure that the person remains unaware of which it is by taste or something like that. Also, although I feel that because of psychedelics I may sometimes be able to relate to a schizophrenic, I don't think any of us can ever feel like they really know what it is to be schizophrenic unless they are in fact themselves schizophrenic.

 

[Dovy91]

Well SWIM can say he had very schitso like thoughts... acted like a schitso... he's sure you can't really say he hasn't really acted like a schitso because he had his own experience and he felt very sympathetic to them...

Where as with the syrian rue or psychotria viridis... It's just what his intuition tells him, he won't dispute it because it was right when he choose rue that it won't be exactly grate to take it... So if the very same inner voice speaks to him, he will definetly listen to it this time.
This is of course not the first time where SWIM's intuition was right, both in times he listen and did not listen to it.

SWIM is also glad you don't have to worry about that since it seems rue & mimosa combo is much more affordable, where as capii & psychotria is not.

 

[Dovy91]

Also would it be appropriate to ask for a good internet vendor for Banisteriopsis caapi, and psychotria viridis (affordable sounds good).

 

[DMT Psychonaut]

Wholy shit man! Your friend sounds like they have some serious mental health problems.

Well he was definitley having a bad trip but he's alright now. After the trip I found out that he thought I was possesed by demons because everytime I said "God save me", to him it sounded like hissing and he didn't believe it was me. But I definetly won't be doing psychedelics with him again for awhile. I'll also remember not to bring up the topic of religion while tripping.

 

[ragabr]

Also would it be appropriate to ask for a good internet vendor for Banisteriopsis caapi, and psychotria viridis (affordable sounds good).

Suppliers subforum

 

[Dovy91]

I appreciate all the feedback it has been very helpful. Now as there have been multiple days since the experience I can see how the dark experience has truly helped me. It was the exact happening of what I was afraid the most, and I was trying to resist it in anyway I could, or escape it by possibly doing something supper drastic and irrational (like running outside in my underwear 3:30am).

It was enough to make me face my fears and make a point that I can never escape it and only when I accepted it and began to love did it actually go away, and made a very superior point... It was not a negative experience at all now that I am able to conclude, it was completely positive from beginning to end, thank you all for all of your responses.

(and thank you for the suppliers part of the forum)

 

[SoundOfFire]

A little sidenote, if I may, on the references to "schizophrenics".. I've definitely had experiences which one could relate to the state of mind our culture has labelled schizophrenia, but these are passing experiences.. our brains are programmed to return to "normal" functioning of this consensus reality. From what I understand, schizophrenics either don't want or don't have that control.

This being said, I also remember reading somewhere (I'll see if I can dig up the reference later) that in cultures where shamanic practice was common, a person with symptoms that we label as the "dis-ease" schizophrenia, is generally seen as someone with shamanic potential, their minds already existing in realms outside of the common comprehension. These people were often taken aside and trained as potential shaman. I can't really elaborate further, it was a while back I came across that theory. Just thought I'd share it, food for thought.