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I thought you were enlightened

Migrated topic.
The idea of a permanent stage of enlightenment is something that could better be abandoned.

On the other hand i find the notion that enlightenment is something that either doesn't exist or if it does, would be totally out of reach for normal human beings like you and me absolutely wrong and fatalistic.

Every human being experiences moments of enlightenment every now and then.

For those who say that anybody who claims to be enlightened must be a charlatan i would say that your definition of enlightenment is probably false: if you define it as a superhuman quality, like being able to walk on water or something, then your fatalistic view will proof right at all times.

But with that attitude towards life and enlightenment, you withhold yourself the chance to ever act in an enlightened way, to face the challenges that are part of this life and to ever stick out your neck for something or someone.

Cynism may be right when it's about the world we live in, but it's wrong when it's about yourself.

Saying that enlightenment cannot exist is only a lame excuse for not trying to make something out of life. You turn yourself into a machine when you truly believe this.

As pandorra said, we often fail to act in an enlightened way when we're being challenged.

I would say that this is normal and rather obvious: eventually everybody will break when under stress. And life is stressfull for virtually every human being on this planet.

To be able to remain enlightened, even under great stress is the challenge life is all about if you ask me.
And it's a challenge because it's not an easy thing...or it wouldn't BE a challenge.
 
vovin said:
When this post was made it was a time when the forum was in a fit of chaos. There were quite a few arguments many downright rude. I made the post on a whim and did not imagine it would be stickied. The title of the post was meant to make people think about what they wrote, does their reply embody that which they claim to seek to be.

The reason behind the title is simple. Wanna be enlightened? fake it.

Seriously.

If you go through life acting and mimicking the actions of a enlightened individual. It in essence forces you to walk the walk. In time you will eventually begin to think as a wise one would. The old saying fake it until you make it really does work

But first before you start a flamin' let me be clear just acting as if you are enlightened is not going to work for anyone. It is but one piece of the puzzle. I choose to utilize this tactic to ensure that during everyday life I do not fall back into old habits. This is easy when you are relaxed among friends. But if they see you as one who is more spiritual or "enlightened' your gonna have to act like that all the time arent you :lol: and eventually you become that which you embody.

I learned this tactic in the army I overheard some doctors at lunch stating that if you lie enough you eventually will begin to believe it.

During basic training I informed everyone I was from a town in Virginia. I spoke of this in such detail and so often that during large road marches when my mind would wander I found myself drifting back to my home but in memory I would recall it as Virginia. I think it is important to note I haven't even been to Virginia. My mind simply merged my 'new reality' with memories of youth. I found it quite disturbing at the time to see how easily my own mind was manipulated.

Basically if you embody the persona as a 'enlightened' person then it will infiltrate every aspect of your life and you will have to become it to sustain it. In time you will begin to think in this mode of thought and in time perceive in it as well.

Keep in mind my perception of enlightenment is that it is a path not a destination. All who follow the path are enlightened from the very beginner to the wisest of us all. It is the dedication and determination to self betterment that denotes enlightenment not a rank or status awarded after completion.
Click to expand...

I have to say that I UNDERSTAND this, and I APPRECIATE it, but (well, at least for myself) I don't believe it's a useful approach for growth.

I don't think it's wise to try to "make oneself into something." Sure, that's how we're raised as children--practically the moment we pop out of the womb, people "get to work on us" trying to "make us into something."

I say this as an older person who (like everyone) has (and is) "struggling through:" The game of "making yourself into something" is ENDLESS and ultimately EMPTY. Internally, it's like treating yourself as a "thing," and thinking "now what would be a really GOOD thing I could make myself into?" Really, it's horrible. And it's the same sort of artificial crap one might try in...oh, making oneself a more effective "babe magnet" or something :D

People should DEVELOP, via a CONSCIOUS PROCESS of perception, learning, understanding, integration, and resolution between themselves and the universe--or, of course, just go STRAIGHT to finding the IDENTITY between themselves and the universe :)

Trying to make yourself into something is just more samsara, more changing forms, more acting, more UNconsciousness, more...violence, in a subtle way.

For me, I can be satisfied with ANYONE who, at the end of the day, shows they possess the INTENTION to grow, learn, develop--and I can tolerate almost ANY crap from them under those circumstances. And if they DON'T have that intention, I've already had enough from them even if they act like GANDHI!

I think what we need to do is somehow help (or keep reminding) everyone (including ourselves, of course) that most posting on the Nexus are more FRAGILE and VULNERABLE than people we might confront in ordinary life, because we are PLACING OURSELVES ON THE EDGE with the intention of learning and experiencing....SO....we can all benefit by KEEPING SUCH THINGS IN MIND, and trying to tread lightly.

And that would INCLUDE (on our parts) being ready to allow some "extra energy" exhibited by some (all) of us, sometimes, just...to slip away, without the need to recriminate or chastise.


[I hope I've been clear. My post is very specifically NOT meant to criticize ANYONE or even any IDEA. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think we really need to DO anything--other than increase awareness of the human condition, and re-connect with the idea that I'm sure we ALL have, that want we want is to grow and learn, and share experience, knowledge, and understanding with those who have the same intention.]
 
SWIMfriend said:
I have to say that I UNDERSTAND this, and I APPRECIATE it, but (well, at least for myself) I don't believe it's a useful approach for growth.

I don't think it's wise to try to "make oneself into something." Sure, that's how we're raised as children--practically the moment we pop out of the womb, people "get to work on us" trying to "make us into something."

I say this as an older person who (like everyone) has (and is) "struggling through:" The game of "making yourself into something" is ENDLESS and ultimately EMPTY. Internally, it's like treating yourself as a "thing," and thinking "now what would be a really GOOD thing I could make myself into?" Really, it's horrible. And it's the same sort of artificial crap one might try in...oh, making oneself a more effective "babe magnet" or something :D

People should DEVELOP, via a CONSCIOUS PROCESS of perception, learning, understanding, integration, and resolution between themselves and the universe--or, of course, just go STRAIGHT to finding the IDENTITY between themselves and the universe :)

Trying to make yourself into something is just more samsara, more changing forms, more acting, more UNconsciousness, more...violence, in a subtle way.

For me, I can be satisfied with ANYONE who, at the end of the day, shows they possess the INTENTION to grow, learn, develop--and I can tolerate almost ANY crap from them under those circumstances. And if they DON'T have that intention, I've already had enough from them even if they act like GANDHI!

I think what we need to do is somehow help (or keep reminding) everyone (including ourselves, of course) that most posting on the Nexus are more FRAGILE and VULNERABLE than people we might confront in ordinary life, because we are PLACING OURSELVES ON THE EDGE with the intention of learning and experiencing....SO....we can all benefit by KEEPING SUCH THINGS IN MIND, and trying to tread lightly.

And that would INCLUDE (on our parts) being ready to allow some "extra energy" exhibited by some (all) of us, sometimes, just...to slip away, without the need to recriminate or chastise.


[I hope I've been clear. My post is very specifically NOT meant to criticize ANYONE or even any IDEA. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think we really need to DO anything--other than increase awareness of the human condition, and re-connect with the idea that I'm sure we ALL have, that want we want is to grow and learn, and share experience, knowledge, and understanding with those who have the same intention.]
Click to expand...
swim freind- this is really some excellent thinking. you put into words what i wasn't able to just last night talking to a freind. the topic was "trying" to be something as opposed to simply being. you have eloquently captured the subtle yet very major difference between the 2. thank you
 
olympus mon said:
swim freind- this is really some excellent thinking. you put into words what i wasn't able to just last night talking to a freind. the topic was "trying" to be something as opposed to simply being. you have eloquently captured the subtle yet very major difference between the 2. thank you
Click to expand...

Thanks for understanding. And yeah, that's the issue I was aiming at: "Trying to be something" rather than just being, or, "coming to be" something different than you were, through a positive process of growth and learning. I'll admit I was already rather "old" by the time I finally came to that realization. We are TRAINED toward "acting" from a very early age, and there's usually nobody around to tell us that method is most useful for training societal slaves to be willing and easily-fit cogs in the machine.

One should learn that life is not an act, but a valuable opportunity to actually BE.

There are those who point out that psychedelics are so frowned upon by authority BECAUSE they tend to make people think about who they are and about what might have real meaning and value for them.
 
I feel less and less love & understanding on this forum everyday.

I understand why deeply paranoid, very far-fetched Conspiracy Theories aren't welcome,
but I'm quite dumbfounded to see my latest post removed. It was merely a possible,
theoretic story as an attempt to explain possible reasons for otherwise well-educated
scientist to go out and tell blatant, ignorant & harmfull lies to the public. Never
claimed this to be true. Even ended it with "Not unthinkable at all".

It was a rather long shot from being a paranoid, delusional Conspiracy Theory with Aliens &
Mindcontrol; It is a very plausable scenario. Just not proven true; which is kind of hard to do
with secret schemes. If we are actually forbidden to talk about this, speculate at least a bit,
without immediately being censored and PMed a warning, then I feel this forum isn't going in
a very desirable direction.

I also wasn't very fond of the way my Magnetic Motor Obsession-Topic was received. It has been
continuously interrupted and inhibited by cynical, condescending ego-talk; Not really proving
a point, just being a roadblock to decent, civilised, intelligent discussion.

When I repeatedly asked kindly for "Skeptics" to respect this topic
and leave it to those who DID take it seriously, the topic has been continuously harrassed by harsh,
negativity disguised as reason trying to make a point. I have even been told that "This kind of Ignorance
(referring to me not taking the Thermodynamic laws TOO serious) will not be tolerated to spread on this forum"
Is it me or is that just outright tyrannical?

Some people here have been behaving very tyrannical and intolerant. Deciding for all of us what
is worthy of being discussed and what is rediculous or even outright taboo & forbidden to discuss.
This really makes me want to withdraw from the rest of the forum and stick to the one thing
that these intolerant, dominant people and I have in common: Interrest in Psycho-active compounds &
related topics.


Since I've now been officially warned and censored for simply uttering a hypothesis trying to
figure out why scientists spread lies(about drugs), I feel that this judgemental, cynical mindstate has
also been incorporated deeply into the regulations of this forum. It's becomming over-policed,
almost puritan. Kind of strange for a DMT forum if you ask me.

Just a question for whoever is in charge of this forum nowadays:

Why would you be so repressive and intolerant towards Conspiracy Theories,
Unconventional views of Physics, Alternative Energy Systems and such talk,
yet have no problem whatsoever with people being condescending, rude and
hostile forum-trolls?

If anything will bring down the value of this Forum, it is NOT unconventional science,
conspiracy theories or noobs having false assumptions of Chemistry, but exactly this
additude of cynicism, condescendance & delusions of superiority & the animosity it creates.



Once this place used to inspire the adventurous, curious & filosophical side of me, but lately it's really
been bringing out mostly the worst in me. Only few people on this forum give me positivity anymore.
I really appreciate them, but unfortunately their humble, kind & open mindstate isn't half as populair as
the egoic "I am smarter than you ignorant fools"-mindstate is here.


I'll just withdraw to the exact subjects of this forum, about Solvents, Bases, Precipitations & Alkaloids.
Not much chance of triggering an Ego-Clash over something so Factual & Clear. Too bad that such Ego-clashes
have actually discouraged me to be active on other parts of this forum.

Maybe some people would do good committing a proper Ego-cide by consuming a terrifying dose of Mushrooms once.
Cause some people are really full of resentment & hostility and I see a very consistent, totally compulsive need to
ALLWAYS and EVER be RIGHT. To know better. To be intellectually superior. Cause THAT is exactly what has been pulling
this forum deeper & deeper down in egoic conlicts. THAT is what makes the intellectual & social level of this forum
drop very fast.

My heart has spoken.
 
SKA said:
I feel less and less love & understanding on this forum everyday.

I understand why deeply paranoid, very far-fetched Conspiracy Theories aren't welcome,
but I'm quite dumbfounded to see my latest post removed. It was merely a possible,
theoretic story as an attempt to explain possible reasons for otherwise well-educated
scientist to go out and tell blatant, ignorant & harmfull lies to the public. Never
claimed this to be true. Even ended it with "Not unthinkable at all".

It was a rather long shot from being a paranoid, delusional Conspiracy Theory with Aliens &
Mindcontrol; It is a very plausable scenario. Just not proven true; which is kind of hard to do
with secret schemes. If we are actually forbidden to talk about this, speculate at least a bit,
without immediately being censored and PMed a warning, then I feel this forum isn't going in
a very desirable direction.

I also wasn't very fond of the way my Magnetic Motor Obsession-Topic was received. It has been
continuously interrupted and inhibited by cynical, condescending ego-talk; Not really proving
a point, just being a roadblock to decent, civilised, intelligent discussion.

When I repeatedly asked kindly for "Skeptics" to respect this topic
and leave it to those who DID take it seriously, the topic has been continuously harrassed by harsh,
negativity disguised as reason trying to make a point. I have even been told that "This kind of Ignorance
(referring to me not taking the Thermodynamic laws TOO serious) will not be tolerated to spread on this forum"
Is it me or is that just outright tyrannical?

Some people here have been behaving very tyrannical and intolerant. Deciding for all of us what
is worthy of being discussed and what is rediculous or even outright taboo & forbidden to discuss.
This really makes me want to withdraw from the rest of the forum and stick to the one thing
that these intolerant, dominant people and I have in common: Interrest in Psycho-active compounds &
related topics.


Since I've now been officially warned and censored for simply uttering a hypothesis trying to
figure out why scientists spread lies(about drugs), I feel that this judgemental, cynical mindstate has
also been incorporated deeply into the regulations of this forum. It's becomming over-policed,
almost puritan. Kind of strange for a DMT forum if you ask me.

Just a question for whoever is in charge of this forum nowadays:

Why would you be so repressive and intolerant towards Conspiracy Theories,
Unconventional views of Physics, Alternative Energy Systems and such talk,
yet have no problem whatsoever with people being condescending, rude and
hostile forum-trolls?

If anything will bring down the value of this Forum, it is NOT unconventional science,
conspiracy theories or noobs having false assumptions of Chemistry, but exactly this
additude of cynicism, condescendance & delusions of superiority & the animosity it creates.



Once this place used to inspire the adventurous, curious & filosophical side of me, but lately it's really
been bringing out mostly the worst in me. Only few people on this forum give me positivity anymore.
I really appreciate them, but unfortunately their humble, kind & open mindstate isn't half as populair as
the egoic "I am smarter than you ignorant fools"-mindstate is here.


I'll just withdraw to the exact subjects of this forum, about Solvents, Bases, Precipitations & Alkaloids.
Not much chance of triggering an Ego-Clash over something so Factual & Clear. Too bad that such Ego-clashes
have actually discouraged me to be active on other parts of this forum.

Maybe some people would do good committing a proper Ego-cide by consuming a terrifying dose of Mushrooms once.
Cause some people are really full of resentment & hostility and I see a very consistent, totally compulsive need to
ALLWAYS and EVER be RIGHT. To know better. To be intellectually superior. Cause THAT is exactly what has been pulling
this forum deeper & deeper down in egoic conlicts. THAT is what makes the intellectual & social level of this forum
drop very fast.

My heart has spoken.
Click to expand...

I have read the thread you are talking about (the one on free energy). It seems to me that this forum is made for debate and constructive discussions. When you come up with an idea, and that this idea is debated, you can't expected people who don't share your opinion to silence theirs. And when those people come and share precious information on the subject, and that they challenge your point of view, you should be thankful because it pushes you to think more deeply about what your views are.

Maybe you shouldn't feel frustration when you can't defend your point properly, but take it as a sign that you should question your stance.

I often see this accusation of oversized egos on this forum, and I have to say that my honnest reaction in those cases is that these accusators should take a deep breathe and think about what is the part of themselves that feels threatened... they may learn a thing or two about themselves.
 
SKA said:
Maybe some people would do good committing a proper Ego-cide by consuming a terrifying dose of Mushrooms once.
Click to expand...

Interesting way to finish off this post in a nine-month-dead public thread that details your personal angst toward particular members forum, fraught with "I"s and "Me"s.

Not to call you out, but rather suggest that the only way to see the change you desire is to be the change you desire. Perhaps some smiles, consideration and forgiveness is all that is needed all around... either way, speaking divisively only divides.

All the best.
Hg
 
SKA said:
...
Click to expand...
1) Regarding your removed post: This forum is not for fear mongering and the spreading of paranoia.

2) Regarding your thermodynamics topic: When your have a standpoint and that standpoint is highly debatable, yo will be called out for that. Asking other people to not critically point out the highly debatable parts of your standpoint is not making any sense on a forum, especially not on the DMT-Nexus where critical thinking is highly encouraged. Why else would you discuss something here if you are not open for the idea that your idea is wrong? To me that is rather close minded. So instead of pointing at ALL the other people and accusing them of being wrong, it might actually be you who is wrong.


Kind regards,

The Traveler
 
I think what Vovin is putting across is basically simple common courtesy. I wouldn't confuse this with enlightenment, that is far deeper in my opinion, but we are certainly on that track towards it.

-I have noticed that on these threads we have some strong ego's floating about. Some people are closing themselves up to solutions to problems by arguing with other people and creating a load of noise in the process. It's almost like this is the "norm" to them, an automated response, maybe they watch too much television, and are used to arguing?/ They are failing to see the other persons "side of the fence". These are examples of an inability to empathise, and i guess a lot of us here are guilty of that during some heated discussions.

-Some people think their points are correct based on what they know, whilst others know different. We are all different, and must realise this. Although we might have similar interests in certain areas, we may be well off in other areas. If we can't agree, then that is ok, and not wrong. We can agree to disagree-and leave it to that.

-Certainly, like Vovin said, putting a point across should be a calm process. The moment one starts throwing ego into it, is the moment that they have lost the argument, but keep on fighting to try and maintain their pride-even if they are wrong. This is why todays world is in such a mess. We have a society built on such ego lies, when the truth is calm and simple. At least we can try to keep the nexus true , and perhaps leave the strong pride and ego's with parliament's and other establishments which feed on this detrimental noise and nonsense?
 
Hi SKA, and others whose threads have been shot down in similar ways,

SKA said:
"This kind of Ignorance (referring to me not taking the Thermodynamic laws TOO serious) will not be tolerated to spread on this forum"
Click to expand...

I think you're paraphrasing me here when I said "I don't think it's good for the forums to let ignorance fester in specially designated threads". I am probably responsible for a much bigger share of the negativity in your thread than the forum members here at large. But I'm not an admin or moderator. I'm not even a well-known or respected member. I'm just some guy. I am simply incapable of exerting an tyrannical or censorial influence. Even if I could, I would not, and it bothers me that you don't seem to be interested in extending the same courtesy to me. You would, as you put it, have me "leave this topic" and "start my own topic about it".

I appreciate that you find the word 'ignorant' offensive so I regret that it is still the best choice of word to describe your attitude towards science. It is not a judgement of character. Please note this difference. I am not saying that you are an ignorant person, merely that your attitude towards science is ignorant. I know that it sucks to be told that you are ignorant about anything, but it's an important part of enlightenment to be able to accept that you are ignorant about some things, and knowledgeable about some others.

I have never at any point - nor would I ever - reject your opinions or ideas simply because they were unconventional. It's very important to me that you understand this, because I have been getting the strong impression that you think your thread was derailed simply out of unthinking conformity. Though there is nothing I could possibly say to convince you that it is knowledge and experience rather than faith that underlies the rigidity of my opinion about the thermodynamic laws, perhaps I can show you an example where I do reject the mainstream "scientific" viewpoint:

I am formally trained in mainstream (neoclassical) economics, the kind taught at universities, where it is taught more or less as a kind of science. It is mathematical, comprehensive, and complete. For all the economic disasters that have happened around the world, we had ways of modifying some initial assumptions to make our models fit them. A hundred years of development formed a massive superstructure of complex interconnected, internally consistent theory in which we worked with relatively simple tools to make relatively important predictions. Our thermodynamic laws - the Sonneschein-Mantel-Debreu conditions - were equally untouchable as those of the hard sciences. Since they were so far removed from anything that I was actually doing, I didn't really understand why they were necessary or how they worked, but the whole intellectual edifice of economics accepted them faithfully, and so did I.

Eventually a few years ago a friend recommended me a book which claimed to 'debunk' modern economics. I approached it with the same attitude I approached your thread: extreme scepticism. I was primed to pick it apart to the bone, but as I read it I found my own arguments were anticipated by the author, page by page, and being picked apart to the bone themselves. The book started by examining the base assumptions that I had taken as gospel truth, showed me how they were arrived at, why they have been so tenacious and what was wrong with them. It was a difficult read, both intellectually and emotionally, but I ploughed through as the whole intellectual framework of my training shattered around me. The author had taken the mainstream theory and understood it so well, to such a high level of detail, that he was able to rebuff it on its own terms. It wasn't "let's try this theory", it was "your theory is wrong in these ways for these reasons, let's try to make an alternative theory". Since then I have come to discard most of mainstream economics as worse than useless.

This is what it takes to defeat the mainstream theory. You need to understand it and criticise it on its own terms. Good science is built on the shoulders of giants. It is unfair to expect people to determine why your alternative theory will not work if you are unwilling to explain to them why their mainstream theory does not work. You can build science on the shoulders on giants, or you can try to slay the giant, but if you just try to ignore it you'll be crushed every time.

Cheers.
 
Maybe I am wrong about the magnetic ferriswheel. This is a possibility. But I hope to let experiments tell me answers.
The topic I started was for other people to join in experimenting. Instead we've been mostly discussing Thermodynamic Laws.
I understand how they're related, but I'd rather put BOTH the design AND the Thermodynamics Laws to the test, using experiments.

You can speculate for ours why something wouldn't work using just the laws of thermodynamics, but you're in danger of becomming
stuck in intellectual concepts and forget to just experiment and be open to whatever is the result.

Many of the Skeptical replies contain alot of factual information, however most of it is not related to the actual magnetic ferris-
wheel design.

I explained my crude understanding of Thermodynamics and how I expect it should make the wheel spin continuously. This was completely ignored.
I asked the skeptics to explain exactly WHAT counteracting forces there were and just HOW they would eventually bring the wheel to a stop.
I was answered with centripetal force and friction. When I explained how strong enough magnets could effectively counter that centripeta force,
no one argued that. It was simply ignored again. Then some one posted a lot of facts and a picture of wrongly-depicted & correctly-depicted
magnetic flux fields. It was very interresting, but didn't at all explain how it would represent a problem in motion the ferriswheel.

I also explained how friction could be reduced to 0 (magneticly hovered driveshaft) but this too was ignored.
As far as I'm concerned I see simple ways to overcome & cancel out the opposing forces, but the skeptics have
stuck to the arguement these forces can just not be overcome, without explaining exactly why in detail.

I will remain open to scepticism if someone can give me a detailed description of exactly what forces would stop the wheel and just how.
But the arguements I've heard so far just don't go into any detail. Thusfar I've heard no such explanation.
I'm still eagerly awaiting that explanation. I have already given my explanation of how I expect it to work.

To be honoust these "arguements" do not contain much reason at all. Otherwise they could have easily explained what
problem would stop the ferriwsheel from spinning forever. That would have been constructive criticism.
Instead I feel they are simply attempts to repress certain views, dressed up as intellectual arguments.
Let's call it desctructive criticism. And it has thusfar effectively hindered the topic from becomming a
basis for joint experimentation and sharing of test results & new designs.

I just hoped to start a number of people experimenting, exchanging test results and making adjustments, instead of the
hostile Thermodynamics lecture it has become.
 
SWIMfriend said:
I don't think it's wise to try to "make oneself into something." Sure, that's how we're raised as children--practically the moment we pop out of the womb, people "get to work on us" trying to "make us into something."
Click to expand...

-I agree. You are not your job, or the person you are going out with. You're inner self is like a polished diamond. You are special and unique, etc. This is what needs to be respected.

-There's too much anger floating about because some posters that have studied science are overly defensive about their years of devotion to science and study, when someone comes along with a theory that cannot be proved. Well guess what folks, we still cannot understand how life lives, etc. We have our theories about life after death, but cannot prove it. Let us just admit that Science has it's place, but is not the answer to everything at the moment. We try our best, but don't always get it right, and never will. We cannot prove we dreamt about a purple goddess, or this or that. But are you saying it isn't then valid???

-By letting go of the anger and resentment, the lifeforce can flow, and Science must know where it falls short, and where imagination takes over. In fact imagination and free flowing ideas is vital to the growth of science. Scientific people that argue against free spirited unproven views are in fact shooting themselves in their evolutionary feet, and holding back the progress of science. They are shutting up shop, when a new breakthru is just around the corner.

-Be nice people, because that "uneducated fool" might be the bringer of knowledge that you educated and university bred types will never attain in your rigid thoughtpatterns. Controlled rigid thinking is not free thinking, and free thinking should be allowed and encouraged. Let us remember that wether we have university degrees or not, it doesn't matter one bit when it comes to imagination. That cannot be taught in schools.

-Try and see both sides of the fence, and realise that the point that you are so trying to defend may in fact not be worthwhile defending. Especially when the Nexus is all about growing together as a team. Lighten up, lighten up. In terms of spiritual growth a defensive ego has no place whatsoever. That can be found in the ugliness of society if you seeketh that.8)
 
dromedary said:
:

Eventually a few years ago a friend recommended me a book which claimed to 'debunk' modern economics. I approached it with the same attitude I approached your thread: extreme scepticism. I was primed to pick it apart to the bone, but as I read it I found my own arguments were anticipated by the author, page by page, and being picked apart to the bone themselves. The book started by examining the base assumptions that I had taken as gospel truth, showed me how they were arrived at, why they have been so tenacious and what was wrong with them. It was a difficult read, both intellectually and emotionally, but I ploughed through as the whole intellectual framework of my training shattered around me. The author had taken the mainstream theory and understood it so well, to such a high level of detail, that he was able to rebuff it on its own terms. It wasn't "let's try this theory", it was "your theory is wrong in these ways for these reasons, let's try to make an alternative theory". Since then I have come to discard most of mainstream economics as worse than useless.


/quote]
Dromedary-may I ask the title and author of the book you refer to?It sounds like its worth a read.
Click to expand...
 
Anyone who has been through, and learned from the psychedelic experience has been enlightened. Becoming one with the eternal, and viewing yourself from the outside, and changing yourself because of it is the definition IMHO. I realize this isn't the point of the thread, but reading through it I read many times that no one is enlightened. I disagree, we have all been enlightened at one point or another.
 
I do not think that simply having psychedelic experience(s), integrating and changing as a result confers enlightenment.

I am sure we all learn and change as a result of these experiences but I am not sure that makes everyone in that position enlightened.
 
Overall enlightenment is a myth.

One can only become enlightened on individual facts, subjects etc.

To declare oneself enlightened is to crawl up one's own anus.

The rest of us will just keep trying and in the process of which, will get miles beyond those who believe they are there.
 
Souldfood, I believe your post to be a semantic word game. And I mean that in the most respectful way. I'll shoot another at you, True enlightenment is the absence of striving for enlightenment. I twisted up a Chuang Tzu quote there to suit my argument. I understand the point of saying a realization of enlightenment cancels it out. I disagree wholeheartedly. When all secrets of reality and the universe and spirituality and the physical world are unlocked....that is my definition of enlightenment. Perhaps my ignorance of the whole concept is showing. I doubt many people walk around saying "i am an enlightened individual and am done with my quest for knowledge"....not many sane people at least, so please don't put those words in my mouth. If I have misunderstood you, or you think I'm off base with my point feel free to express it respectfully.

I believe enlightenment is fleeting. "i turned to look and it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now"
 
SKA, you should go join the lycaeum forums. While the audience is much smaller, you might find a more desireable reaction with your experiments.
 
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