Hiyo Quicksilver
just some guy
Shush. I'm moar enlightened than all of you combined.soulfood said:
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I thought you were enlightened
- Thread starter vovin
- Start date
xsparkyx said:
Sooo... you know of someone who has achieved this?
I'm getting some super glue, smearing my hands in it and picking up my pistols here.
christian
Rising Star
It is my humble opinion that enlightened individuals are people that have in some form or other stepped outside the societal norm and onto a higher ground. These individuals know of a deeper understanding in general of life, and what it really should mean, rather than fall victims to the daily grind of being a valued citizen as dictated by your lovely caring governments that have got you where you are now thanks to fearmongering , armies, police, and naff religions.
-Enlightened people also would rather walk away from an argument then get caught up in what is really someone elses unhappiness. They can see beyond that level of triviality for they are aligned to a joyeus and spiritual path. And moaning and being childishly nasty has no place in this path.They would simply let such a person be, untill they found their own answer, like they once did-a long time ago.
-To reach such a level of enlightenment there are many paths, often requiring a lot of space, peace and quiet. Not noise, arguing and stupidity.8)
-Enlightened people also would rather walk away from an argument then get caught up in what is really someone elses unhappiness. They can see beyond that level of triviality for they are aligned to a joyeus and spiritual path. And moaning and being childishly nasty has no place in this path.They would simply let such a person be, untill they found their own answer, like they once did-a long time ago.
-To reach such a level of enlightenment there are many paths, often requiring a lot of space, peace and quiet. Not noise, arguing and stupidity.8)
Christian,
That's a fair enough definition on the matter for me, but I call that "understanding".
Understandimg begins with some acceptance of ignorance, whereas I believe a self-proclaimed enlightened one begins with assumption.
That's a fair enough definition on the matter for me, but I call that "understanding".
Understandimg begins with some acceptance of ignorance, whereas I believe a self-proclaimed enlightened one begins with assumption.
More and more I appreciate your posts Christian.
You may call it "understanding", soulfood, but this type of understanding can defenitely be considered
a Social form of enlightenment. And that social enlightenment is what mankind lacks and therefor needs.
Mankind is alreadyy quite intellectually enlightened, with our fairly deep understanding of the world
around us, what elements it's made up of and the natural laws that dictate their behaviour & interaction.
When you compair this highly developped form of intelligence to the collective, average Social skills/intelligence
of mankind it isn't hard to spot that we're socially impaired, underdeveloped. What is needed for mankind to
survive and flourish is exactly this Social side of us to be more developed, enlightened.
If our Social Intelligence may be developped to match the level of our Intellectual Intelligence,
then one day mankind may become more balanced and take large steps forwards in the process of
developping civilisation.
You may call it "understanding", soulfood, but this type of understanding can defenitely be considered
a Social form of enlightenment. And that social enlightenment is what mankind lacks and therefor needs.
Mankind is alreadyy quite intellectually enlightened, with our fairly deep understanding of the world
around us, what elements it's made up of and the natural laws that dictate their behaviour & interaction.
When you compair this highly developped form of intelligence to the collective, average Social skills/intelligence
of mankind it isn't hard to spot that we're socially impaired, underdeveloped. What is needed for mankind to
survive and flourish is exactly this Social side of us to be more developed, enlightened.
If our Social Intelligence may be developped to match the level of our Intellectual Intelligence,
then one day mankind may become more balanced and take large steps forwards in the process of
developping civilisation.
christian
Rising Star
Thanks for your compliments SKA, and nice input Soulfood.
-To me Enlightenment has to be sortof "user friendly" in our world, for greater good, to be a worthwhile path. It has to be something that can be put to use to benefit us all, something that can help us develop a more healthy respect for this life that we have, etc, and be aware of this.
-I can see what you mean, Soulfood, but it sounds like the Enlightenment that you speak of means Nirvana. At least it seems so.
-To me Enlightenment has to be sortof "user friendly" in our world, for greater good, to be a worthwhile path. It has to be something that can be put to use to benefit us all, something that can help us develop a more healthy respect for this life that we have, etc, and be aware of this.
-I can see what you mean, Soulfood, but it sounds like the Enlightenment that you speak of means Nirvana. At least it seems so.
d*l*b
Rising Star
This is what comes to mind first when I hear the term, but in fact I think there are many types of enlightenment.christian said:
Simply seeing and understanding any one thing could in fact mean enlightenment, but does not mean that the person in question is necessarily enlightened in other ways.
I suppose a more feasible form of enlightenment is that which is part of an ongoing process that will probably never actually be concluded. What is seen as an enlightened view today will certainly not be considered so in 100 years, not to mention that from one social group to another the parameters and possibilities are very different.
I agree that there are many types of "enlightenment." Even in the East they differentiate between a satori, samadhi, nirvana, nirbikalpa samadhi etc.
I think most people are not talking about the simple understanding or learning, which is one of the definitions of the word, when they discuss enlightenment in spiritual or mystical contexts. To be enlightened in this sense seems to imply a somewhat permanent upward shift in consciousness... a kind of spiritual quantum leap. When an electron gathers up enough energy it can disappear from the ring it is currently rotating in and reappear in another higher one. There seems to be this kind of conception regarding one's consciousness.
I have met a number of people who's range of consciousness is significantly higher than that of "normal" people to the point where their most unconscious states are already higher than the high points for a typical person. If someone is so elevated that they never descend into petty egoic bullshit, maintain peace and equilibrium in all things, and are continually able to maintain states that normal folk need a hefty dose of entheogens to approach... I consider these people "enlightened masters." They are rare, and it is an honor and blessing to be around them.
Most of us on the path to mastery lie somewhere between the "normal" ego attached, going through the motions, auto-pilot masses... and the true masters. For us, we may taste some of their bliss in moments we can consider satoris or revelations, but be unable to maintain such exhalted states indefinitely. We might require lengthy practices, entheogens, or other shamanic tools to get up there, and suffer the indignities of falling down into petty BS from time to time. On this path, we may initially measure our moments of enlightenment in milliseconds.... brief pauses between breaths where we "white out" momentarily and grok the nondual. We may have entire half hour forays into ecstatic bliss when boosted by ayahuasca or some other such tool. People who experience these things are not fully enlightened, but they may very well be on their way.
What I notice is that sincere seekers of truth can reach out and touch it in timeless moments of ecstasy, but this doesn't guarantee that they will be able to maintain such lofty and rarified states. What it does do, is acclimatize them to those heights. After a while, what seemed impossibly cosmic and unreachable becomes somewhat repeatable and familiar... not an immersion into a foreign and befuddling landscape, but a trip to an exotic but known locale where you start to know your way around.
The range of your experience moves up via such pathways. You still have your highs and lows, but they are all moved up so that your lows are no longer quite so low... and your highs are, well... higher. When you reach a state where your lowest points are qualitatively higher than your former norms... you can consider yourself somewhat of an adept. When your lows are higher than your former highs... you are probably worthy of considering yourself a master.
Of course, I have never met a master who was foolish enough to think that they were done, or that there was nothing more they could learn or achieve. Even if you had the experience of knowing all there was to know, the Universe is not stagnant. There are always more subtle nuances and finer levels of control. Better retention... better integration... a sharper intent. When things you struggled for in the past become nearly effortless, this doesn't mean you are done... just that you have new mountains to conquer.
A person might have a masters degree, and still have a lifetime of study ahead of them... but that doesn't mean that they aren't lightyears ahead of a bunch of kindergarten students.
All that said, I do think that total enlightenment is a reality. Not just a possibility, but a certainty... for all of us. The you at the end of time is what I call the "highest self," and this being is fully realized and transcendent IMHO. This is the future version of you who actually knows who you really are. Not intuits, not grasps, not momentarily recognizes... but thoroughly and completely knows.
Be well friends,
HF
I think most people are not talking about the simple understanding or learning, which is one of the definitions of the word, when they discuss enlightenment in spiritual or mystical contexts. To be enlightened in this sense seems to imply a somewhat permanent upward shift in consciousness... a kind of spiritual quantum leap. When an electron gathers up enough energy it can disappear from the ring it is currently rotating in and reappear in another higher one. There seems to be this kind of conception regarding one's consciousness.
I have met a number of people who's range of consciousness is significantly higher than that of "normal" people to the point where their most unconscious states are already higher than the high points for a typical person. If someone is so elevated that they never descend into petty egoic bullshit, maintain peace and equilibrium in all things, and are continually able to maintain states that normal folk need a hefty dose of entheogens to approach... I consider these people "enlightened masters." They are rare, and it is an honor and blessing to be around them.
Most of us on the path to mastery lie somewhere between the "normal" ego attached, going through the motions, auto-pilot masses... and the true masters. For us, we may taste some of their bliss in moments we can consider satoris or revelations, but be unable to maintain such exhalted states indefinitely. We might require lengthy practices, entheogens, or other shamanic tools to get up there, and suffer the indignities of falling down into petty BS from time to time. On this path, we may initially measure our moments of enlightenment in milliseconds.... brief pauses between breaths where we "white out" momentarily and grok the nondual. We may have entire half hour forays into ecstatic bliss when boosted by ayahuasca or some other such tool. People who experience these things are not fully enlightened, but they may very well be on their way.
What I notice is that sincere seekers of truth can reach out and touch it in timeless moments of ecstasy, but this doesn't guarantee that they will be able to maintain such lofty and rarified states. What it does do, is acclimatize them to those heights. After a while, what seemed impossibly cosmic and unreachable becomes somewhat repeatable and familiar... not an immersion into a foreign and befuddling landscape, but a trip to an exotic but known locale where you start to know your way around.
The range of your experience moves up via such pathways. You still have your highs and lows, but they are all moved up so that your lows are no longer quite so low... and your highs are, well... higher. When you reach a state where your lowest points are qualitatively higher than your former norms... you can consider yourself somewhat of an adept. When your lows are higher than your former highs... you are probably worthy of considering yourself a master.
Of course, I have never met a master who was foolish enough to think that they were done, or that there was nothing more they could learn or achieve. Even if you had the experience of knowing all there was to know, the Universe is not stagnant. There are always more subtle nuances and finer levels of control. Better retention... better integration... a sharper intent. When things you struggled for in the past become nearly effortless, this doesn't mean you are done... just that you have new mountains to conquer.
A person might have a masters degree, and still have a lifetime of study ahead of them... but that doesn't mean that they aren't lightyears ahead of a bunch of kindergarten students.
All that said, I do think that total enlightenment is a reality. Not just a possibility, but a certainty... for all of us. The you at the end of time is what I call the "highest self," and this being is fully realized and transcendent IMHO. This is the future version of you who actually knows who you really are. Not intuits, not grasps, not momentarily recognizes... but thoroughly and completely knows.
Be well friends,
HF
Thinking back I think I'm more fond of the term "awake".
I like the implication that one realises that they have been sleeping, or lacking awareness of some part of themself or their environment, up until the point they realise the illusion. It's not some spiritual, mystical thing by a long shot. Sometimes waking up can be a painful shock to the system depending on what you've been "dreaming", grounded in complete logic yet is sometimes hard to find a way it can be useful as it's often easiest to deny.
I'm pretty sure I've woken up a couple of times, but now I realise there are no limits to awakening, yet I will never blink endless eyelids as at the end there is only one perfect perception therefore I shall never fully awake.
I'm pretty much repeating myself but I did so in a pretty way
I like the implication that one realises that they have been sleeping, or lacking awareness of some part of themself or their environment, up until the point they realise the illusion. It's not some spiritual, mystical thing by a long shot. Sometimes waking up can be a painful shock to the system depending on what you've been "dreaming", grounded in complete logic yet is sometimes hard to find a way it can be useful as it's often easiest to deny.
I'm pretty sure I've woken up a couple of times, but now I realise there are no limits to awakening, yet I will never blink endless eyelids as at the end there is only one perfect perception therefore I shall never fully awake.
I'm pretty much repeating myself but I did so in a pretty way
soulfood said:
Yes. I have experienced this state of awareness. I was under the impression that was a common revelation on psychedelics. That's not something I feel gives me a "one up" on anyone else. While I don't appreciate your negativity, I am not offended in the slightest as you, my friend, are barking up the wrong tree. If you haven't experienced this for yourself, keep looking because it isn't an exclusive club, its available to all. I think what me and you are doing right now is comparing apples to oranges. I don't define enlightenment as some permanent perfect state of being. I think to do that is to deny our existence on earth. This life is meant to be lived, not meant to waste ones life meditating on mountaintops trying to attain what will be given to you later. I see that as being a spoiled child that can't wait to get a cookie. Perhaps I'm wrong on my definition here, but instead of making rude comments in a thread about respect, why don't we attempt to reach a common ground, or at least discuss respectfully.
You want to superglue a gun to your hands? I don't understand what you mean.
Again Soulfood if I am misunderstanding you or creating negativity, set me strait with how you see this subject. If you see the Buddah in the road, kill it!
d*l*b
Rising Star
One question I have is how do we know we are enlightened at any point. How can anyone be sure that “all secrets of reality and the universe and spirituality and the physical world are unlocked” and we are not simply deluded, or as is so often the case with psychedelics, we are dealing with something that is capable of being a bit of a trickster?xsparkyx said:soulfood said:
Yes. I have experienced this state of awareness. I was under the impression that was a common revelation on psychedelics. That's not something I feel gives me a "one up" on anyone else. While I don't appreciate your negativity, I am not offended in the slightest as you, my friend, are barking up the wrong tree. If you haven't experienced this for yourself, keep looking because it isn't an exclusive club, its available to all. I think what me and you are doing right now is comparing apples to oranges. I don't define enlightenment as some permanent perfect state of being. I think to do that is to deny our existence on earth. This life is meant to be lived, not meant to waste ones life meditating on mountaintops trying to attain what will be given to you later. I see that as being a spoiled child that can't wait to get a cookie. Perhaps I'm wrong on my definition here, but instead of making rude comments in a thread about respect, why don't we attempt to reach a common ground, or at least discuss respectfully.
You want to superglue a gun to your hands? I don't understand what you mean.
Again Soulfood if I am misunderstanding you or creating negativity, set me strait with how you see this subject. If you see the Buddah in the road, kill it!
Mmm, I like that one. I think if we can just attempt that one (I don’t think anyone is really capable of it all the time) all is good and we can probably forget being enlightenedchristian said:
xsparkyx,
I was taking your phrase 100% at face value:
*Switch to sarcasm mode*
Next time you're there, call CERN and the head of every organised religion. You'll save everyone much time, money and blood.
*sarcasm mode off*
I certainly have never been in a state where I have revealed to me all the secrets of the universe. I actually think it would probably cause me to have a heart attack, a stroke and an orgasm all at once... maybe even a bit of neck cramp.
I'm sticking to my guns
It's funny!
Get it?
Sorry,
I'm not used to people taking me seriously.
I was taking your phrase 100% at face value:
xsparkyx said:
xsparkyx said:
*Switch to sarcasm mode*
Next time you're there, call CERN and the head of every organised religion. You'll save everyone much time, money and blood.
*sarcasm mode off*
I certainly have never been in a state where I have revealed to me all the secrets of the universe. I actually think it would probably cause me to have a heart attack, a stroke and an orgasm all at once... maybe even a bit of neck cramp.
xsparkyx said:
I'm sticking to my guns
It's funny!
Get it?
Sorry,
I'm not used to people taking me seriously.
Ahhhhhhh lol sticking to your guns. Doh, I'm guilty if taking myself way too seriously . On to the complete understanding of everything.....how real is it? Delusion? No idea, but I guess as real as anything else.
Those revelations never changed much in me. Learning things about myself and human society is what altered my life in a meaningful way. The far out revelations don't stick. Once you take notice they peel away, and are carried off on the breeze as I desperately grasp at fistfulls of empty memories.
Those times where everything clicked, is what I have always defined as enlightenment. Although, I would never consider dedicating my life on earth to what lies beyond it. There is a whole world out there to explore, in our beautiful, isolated, mortal ego. Our soul is the driver, the car is our bodies, and the ego is the keys. Drive it like you stole it!.
. On to the complete understanding of everything.....how real is it? Delusion? No idea, but I guess as real as anything else. Those revelations never changed much in me. Learning things about myself and human society is what altered my life in a meaningful way. The far out revelations don't stick. Once you take notice they peel away, and are carried off on the breeze as I desperately grasp at fistfulls of empty memories.
Those times where everything clicked, is what I have always defined as enlightenment. Although, I would never consider dedicating my life on earth to what lies beyond it. There is a whole world out there to explore, in our beautiful, isolated, mortal ego. Our soul is the driver, the car is our bodies, and the ego is the keys. Drive it like you stole it!
.
Great discussion! I am enjoying the semantic wrangling over the definition of enlightenment. I'd call this a productive thread.
All I have to add to this: I'd compare enlightenment to fitness. All people have it in varying degrees, it will only improve with hard work, there is no permanent end-point to aim for, and as soon as you give up doing the hard work, you start to slip.
Now as for the civility thing: imagine this. You log on, start reading a post and find yourself disagreeing wholeheartedly with the line of reasoning. You feel that you just absolutely have to say something! But here's the question: what is your objective when you hit that "post" button? Are you wanting to express your anger, or do you want to make a sincere effort to explain a contrary viewpoint in a way that might actually be listened to and considered?
Which brings us to one of the basic laws of communication: in order to get someone to listen to what you have to say- particularly if it's an opposing view to theirs- you have to make it attractive to listen. Simple, really. It's much easier to express anger than to patiently explain yourself to someone you disagree with, just as its much easier to make ugly art than beautiful art. But we are a community that aims to take the high road when we can. This is always worth keeping in mind.
All I have to add to this: I'd compare enlightenment to fitness. All people have it in varying degrees, it will only improve with hard work, there is no permanent end-point to aim for, and as soon as you give up doing the hard work, you start to slip.
Now as for the civility thing: imagine this. You log on, start reading a post and find yourself disagreeing wholeheartedly with the line of reasoning. You feel that you just absolutely have to say something! But here's the question: what is your objective when you hit that "post" button? Are you wanting to express your anger, or do you want to make a sincere effort to explain a contrary viewpoint in a way that might actually be listened to and considered?
Which brings us to one of the basic laws of communication: in order to get someone to listen to what you have to say- particularly if it's an opposing view to theirs- you have to make it attractive to listen. Simple, really. It's much easier to express anger than to patiently explain yourself to someone you disagree with, just as its much easier to make ugly art than beautiful art. But we are a community that aims to take the high road when we can. This is always worth keeping in mind.
I always liked this explanation by Jamie:
Furthermore, enlightenment is a completely subjective discovery. Like the concept of love, it's just something for which you eventually have to decide: "this is it". If you're waiting for enlightenment, then you are not yet enlightened. I believe that's all there is to it.
And in response to Vovin's initial post, I'm sorry that some of us have let you down, and I know what good can spring from this community if we point ourselves in the right direction, but this is DMT we're talking about; I was certain of my enlightenment back in the days when I was just doing LSD. Now I'm still scraping the pieces of my mind off the walls. Infinite possibility means infinite unpredictability; I don't think that any attitude, belief, or behavior would be an overreaction to the experience we are here to celebrate. That's the way I feel about it sometimes, at least.
Furthermore, enlightenment is a completely subjective discovery. Like the concept of love, it's just something for which you eventually have to decide: "this is it". If you're waiting for enlightenment, then you are not yet enlightened. I believe that's all there is to it.
And in response to Vovin's initial post, I'm sorry that some of us have let you down, and I know what good can spring from this community if we point ourselves in the right direction, but this is DMT we're talking about; I was certain of my enlightenment back in the days when I was just doing LSD. Now I'm still scraping the pieces of my mind off the walls. Infinite possibility means infinite unpredictability; I don't think that any attitude, belief, or behavior would be an overreaction to the experience we are here to celebrate. That's the way I feel about it sometimes, at least.
Inner Paths
Secretary of the Interior
Hyperspace Fool said:
Hyperspace Fool, I just wanted to say, I resonate with a lot of your ideas and posts on this forum and wanted to let you know I appreciate your contributions, as I do a lot of people on here
As for enlightenment... Well, I know I'm a long way off that, at the age of 30 (soon to be 31), I feel like I'm only just starting to slowly unravel the mystery that is myself ( or as George Costanza would say, "I'm like an onion. The more layers you peel off, the more it stinks!" ), but I try my utmost to appreciate another persons opinion, on this forum, and in life in general. As much as differing opinions can build up walls in the ego, I feel it's the job of the deep self to tear down those walls and question the ego's motives in putting up those walls in the first place... After all, isn't enlightenment all about complete union that is free of separation from the rest of the universe?
InnerPathsToOuterSpace said:Hyperspace Fool, I just wanted to say, I resonate with a lot of your ideas and posts on this forum and wanted to let you know I appreciate your contributions, as I do a lot of people on here
As for enlightenment... Well, I know I'm a long way off that, at the age of 30 (soon to be 31), I feel like I'm only just starting to slowly unravel the mystery that is myself ( or as George Costanza would say, "I'm like an onion. The more layers you peel off, the more it stinks!" ), but I try my utmost to appreciate another persons opinion, on this forum, and in life in general. As much as differing opinions can build up walls in the ego, I feel it's the job of the deep self to tear down those walls and question the ego's motives in putting up those walls in the first place... After all, isn't enlightenment all about complete union that is free of separation from the rest of the universe?
Why thank you friend! The feeling is mutual. I have enjoyed reading your posts here as well.
Difficult to say if enlightenment is about complete union with the universe we see here... many would argue that this is just an illusion and a distraction. And there is some sense to this perspective IMHO as the grandest states tend to come from going within and tuning out so-called consensual reality.
Whether or not the world is actually maya (Sanskrit for illusion), there are certainly profound joys to be had from merging with and sublimating in nature, other people, and various other avenues of external bliss. I don't think anyone who has smoked spice can ever quite reject the power of seemingly external forces on their consciousness... of course, I have smoked spice in my dreams and gotten to hyperspace from something that was clearly not an external alkaloid in retrospect.
Who knows with this stuff. Just when you think you have it figured out, some fresh new twists come along to confound and befuddle you. All I can say for certain is that I am getting better at this stuff, and the progression thrills me to no end. Having already tasted phenomenal states of consciousness with oodles of useful knowledge and wisdom poured down into my swollen head... I can only guess what the Omniself has still in store for me.
HF, that was a good post indeed. I often feel humans as just the prologue to something more evolved, something we can still be. Seems near....... I agree with intuitively feeling these different level of consciousness/understanding in people, and also in the oscilation that happens within limits. Also the idea of jumps in these levels.
I think the idea of enlightenment is interesting as something akin to a mandala that buddhists visualize when meditating, setting your intent towards this higher goal. I resonate a lot with your idea of it being a permanent process in tune with the universe's continuous change.
At the same time I see too many people on the "spiritual" path getting hunged up on this idea, losing sight of the moment and the extreme importance of the day to day. Also I often see too much repetition of what others say instead of actual personal thoughts spoken with one's whole being and the weight of actual experience.
I was just talking to my girlfriend about this, about how there seem to be these levels, and you can always understand whats below you, but you can never understand whats above you. And when we achieve different levels of consciousness, we revisit our previous knowledge and add new layers of subtlety to it. It's an interesting paradox that on one hand, the answers are always "there", but at the same time we need to suffer and make effort, go through struggles and experiences, to realize these truths.
Existence
I think the idea of enlightenment is interesting as something akin to a mandala that buddhists visualize when meditating, setting your intent towards this higher goal. I resonate a lot with your idea of it being a permanent process in tune with the universe's continuous change.
At the same time I see too many people on the "spiritual" path getting hunged up on this idea, losing sight of the moment and the extreme importance of the day to day. Also I often see too much repetition of what others say instead of actual personal thoughts spoken with one's whole being and the weight of actual experience.
I was just talking to my girlfriend about this, about how there seem to be these levels, and you can always understand whats below you, but you can never understand whats above you. And when we achieve different levels of consciousness, we revisit our previous knowledge and add new layers of subtlety to it. It's an interesting paradox that on one hand, the answers are always "there", but at the same time we need to suffer and make effort, go through struggles and experiences, to realize these truths.
Existence