• Members of the previous forum can retrieve their temporary password here, (login and check your PM).

Illusion of free-will?

Migrated topic.
endlessness said:
Now, talking from a purely personal perspective, without any grand philosophical argument or scientific proof to back it up, but I feel that free will is not a black and white thing that either you have or you don't. It feels rather like it is some kind of gradient, which is related to inner development. I don't think as humans we will ever reach 100% free will, but I do think the more I develop my consciousness and awareness, the free-er I am. As I develop myself, the more variables I am able to take in account regarding different phenomena due to my expanded awareness, the closer I am to being really free.
Click to expand...
 
joedirt said:
Why is it inconceivable that in an inconceivable universe that choice couldn't be a fundamental aspect of it?
Click to expand...

I like that statement. I am going use it as a get out of jail free card for any future debates/discussions that i am involved in. Why is it inconceivable that in an inconceivable universe that i am not the queen of Sheba?

And to be honest life would be far easier if I could just blame all my bad luck in life on the universe at large.. denying that I have any responsibility.. --Oh the though arises to kill that man.. well it's not my choice to kill him.... There is a video actually of Charlie Manson essentially saying this.
Click to expand...

I don"t think that life would be easier, as blaming bad luck on the universe tends to take the fight out of an individual. Which maybe one of the reasons that we have developed the illusion of freewill. Charlie Manson was broken and arguably an evolutionary dead end.

So let's say consciousness is an emergent property of the brain. Some studies have in fact shown that if you hit certain brain regions with an electromagnetic field you can alter or close down consciousness... OK... so we have it nailed to a brain region (play along).. now which cluster of neurons in the brain region is responsible for this? Ok now we have a cluster of neurons that we can deem responsible for consciousness..well science, by nature, is reductionist so which neurons are most important? Is it a single neuron? Is it two neurons? If one can't do it then what is it about 2 or more than can... and furthermore is it actually the neuronal cell or is if the small molecule interacting with it... or is it because of the dielectric gradient of interstitial fluid? Is it only one g-protein coupled receptor that gives rise to the first origins of consciousness.. Is it perhaps the neurotransmitter that does it? What about the carbon-caron bonds in say serotonin is that it? Or is it the free amine that ultimately kicks off the cascade of events that allows consciousness to emerge like a flame from materiality? Oh but there is more... what of these molecules we are speaking of.. what does science say about the actual materiality of these molecules... Particle wave duality anyone? Subatomic particles that jump in and out of existence.. and what precisely does it mean to jump out of existence?
Click to expand...

I understand what you are saying (and it quite appeals) but this point relies on the proviso that consciousness arises from one part of the brain rather than it arising from different parts of the brain communicating in order to create awareness. Our favorite Instagrams from Alternative Spring Break

Which i guess leads to this....

OK so you say reductionism is the wrong approach.. Ok then let's start building it back up. Is not the entire chain of events in the universe interlinked and interconnected? Can there be a tree without a perfectly maintained biosphere in a perfect solar system? Is the internet the rise of global consciousness? If so what does that say about our individual consciousness? If so then isn't consciousness once again fundamental to the universe?.. something that the universe continues to manifest at higher and higher levels of order? Perhaps one day we have to make decisions on a planetary scale.. say to interact with another species on other planets.... All of this deterministic behavior for a material universe that doesn't even appear to have substance when examined at the smallest level? Wut?
Click to expand...

Some parts of which i don"t really understand. What does a tree needing a perfectly maintained biosphere have to do with consciousness?
I think that the internet and global consciousness is related to human beings naturally developing their infrastructure in their own image (or that of the brain).
The universe may not have any substance when examined at the smallest level due to the tools not having yet been developed to study it.

So when monkey's start declaring things like it's all just cause and effect and they don't have any choice at all it is humorous.. not because it's wrong, but because it's got no more solid footing than anything else in the universe. The whole sheebang is utterly inconceivable and irrational from a human perspective.
Click to expand...

I agree.

Choice, though not free will, does appear to be a very real part of at least on aspect of higher level consciousness.
Click to expand...

I have no problem with consciousness giving rise to making choices but if you are saying that choice and freewill are not the same things then perhaps being able to make choices further reinforces the illusion that we have freewill.

Joedirt i know that i am probably a deterministic, mechanist bore but it"s what makes the most sense to me and therefore it is how i roll (at the present moment). I also am totally open to the idea that i am probably badly wrong.
 
Joedirt i know that i am probably a deterministic, mechanist bore but it"s what makes the most sense to me and therefore it is how i roll (at the present moment). I also am totally open to the idea that i am probably badly wrong.
Click to expand...
Hey brother, I completely accept your take on this. The fact that we can both openly admit we could be (and likely are) wrong means we are booth seeking the truth. :) The mystery of it all is what drives some of us, and I just love this sort of conversation.

hug46 said:
joedirt said:
Some parts of which i don"t really understand. What does a tree needing a perfectly maintained biosphere have to do with consciousness?
Click to expand...
It's meant to highlight that things don't and can't exist in isolation. A tree is an arbitrary division we construct about this planet. Consciousness may very well arise from the whole brain, but the whole brains is supported by the universe at large... Isn't it really just an artificial division to say the brain starts and stops with this lump of grey matter? I mean hearing, sight, smells, all connect the brain to the world outside. Which to me means quite clearly that the universe is conscious...and are arbitrary divisions o my starting with this skin.. is way false.. I'm loosing atoms back to the environment all the time and when I eat I bring atoms from outside in.. Why should I think of myself as this small division when I require the universe at large to live?

This all to me translates back to meaning the universe has a foundation that supports something like choice..since choice can only arise from consciousness and the universe has clearly demonstrated via all of us that it could produce something as immaterial os conscious experience.

That was were i was going with it.. and yeah there is a leap in there. I certainly don't expect to over turn anyone's views.. especially in a forum like this were people have all spend considerable time thinking deeply about things like this. :)

I think that the internet and global consciousness is related to human beings naturally developing their infrastructure in their own image (or that of the brain).
Click to expand...
But if humans don't have will then humans are't developing any thing. We are just 'star dust' crashing around building mines, constructing pyramids, etc, And why should a dumb material universe organize into creatures that play? Or creatures that make war or love? Why would the universe give rise to emotions.. You might say competitive advantage.. but asteroids don't need a competitive advantage to do their things.. Some say it's just random.. and I say well if that view is comfortable then wear it.. it doesn't work for me though. More likely we are like tiny bacteria on the scale of what life really is or is not..

The universe may not have any substance when examined at the smallest level due to the tools not having yet been developed to study it.
Click to expand...
Perhaps. Or perhaps it really doesn't have an actual substance.. I haven't yet heard a single satisfying explanation for particle wave duality OTHER than a single physics paper calling for the end of particles and embracing fields with special eigenstates that are what we thing of as condensed matter.. But perhaps that is only beause I find the view of insubstantiality appealing.

I have no problem with consciousness giving rise to making choices but if you are saying that choice and freewill are not the same things then perhaps being able to make choices further reinforces the illusion that we have freewill.
Click to expand...

I'd say that free implies freedom from or of something. Can you make a choice that has no effect on the material universe? Even if that effect is just an internal release of neurotransmitters? Choice seems real, but an agent of freedom is what I see as false. Everything that I am is conditioned from the family I grew up in, to the society I live in, to the people I am around. Right now as you read this "your" brain is changing and adapting based on the words I wrote..just as my brain has done while responding to your post. Were do you stop and I begin in this process? And yet every person alive feels as though they can make a choice... Which is why I have to allow for the fact that 'choice' is just another one of those utterly fascinating aspects of the universe like say a black hole...

Peace
Click to expand...
 
What if fractals are a larger part of the equation than we realize, as with consciousness, and the universe is an organism? It is still growing, and perhaps interacting with other universes. We are cells, or not even. Galaxies would be cells, solar systems are molecules, and so on. Consider the similarity in structure of dark matter networks and neural networks. I'm starting to think that material and consciousness are the two driving forces of the universe, apart from entropy. Hell, what if time is the ultimate dimension that the universes reside in? Space is a byproduct, or rather time is to consciousness as space is to matter. They are one in the same.
 
joedirt said:
Hey brother, I completely accept your take on this. The fact that we can both openly admit we could be (and likely are) wrong means we are booth seeking the truth. :) The mystery of it all is what drives some of us, and I just love this sort of conversation.
Click to expand...

Joedirt, i like these words and your attitude and i feel the same way.

Psybin said:
What if fractals are a larger part of the equation than we realize, as with consciousness, and the universe is an organism?
Click to expand...

It"s funny that you should mention the importance of fractals, as the idea of fractals did spring to my mind while i was thinking about humans infrastructures (sprawling towns, computer networks and the like) mimicing how our brains are set up. But i don"t know enough about either to expand on or formulate any decent ideas.
 
This kind of thinking that...Something happened therefore that something was always going to happen is a kind of backwards thinking that holds no value whatsoever. It implies nothing, it's just stating the obvious, but to use it as an excuse or an explanation for anything makes no sense.

Here's an example. If an alcoholic drinks every day heavily he might have some liver problems later in life. You could say his liver problems were always unavoidable because he ended up with them. But all along his path he could have stopped drinking. But he didn't stop you say, stating the obvious. Well does that mean he has no free will? He made a choice to keep drinking, he made a choice not to stop.

What you're doing is you're saying the effect of cause is already determined before choices are even made, and all choices can be predicted from previous causes? Some choices can be determined but to determine all choices would need all data in the whole universe since everything is so interconnected. I don't know if this makes sense but I'm going to think about how to explain it better and maybe respond later.

Also, does the illusion of a "self" discount the idea of a free will? If there is no personal self, is there 1 self? If there is only one self, does that one self have free will? Does god have free will? Do you believe your delusional "self" free will to be disconnected from god's free will? :)
 
spacexplorer said:
This kind of thinking that...Something happened therefore that something was always going to happen is a kind of backwards thinking that holds no value whatsoever. It implies nothing, it's just stating the obvious, but to use it as an excuse or an explanation for anything makes no sense.
Click to expand...
It may hold no value, and yet it very well could be true anyway.

Also you say it holds not value and then go on to say that it's stating the obvious..

Well if it is in fact obvious, and true, then isn't there value in the truth?

Also, if there is no choice (which is what you essential declare as obvious), then things like value would be illusory as well.. for who would be the evaluator?

This rabbit hole is deep. Likely deeper than our simply human brains (the most complex things we know of) can fathom...

Personally, I do think there is choice, but no separate entity that does the choosing. How do photons 'choose' to go through one slit or the other in the double slit experiment? There is obviously a choice of sorts, and yet I don't think anyone is claiming that photons are separate entities that have free will..

And no my explanation doesn't really set well either. Everything around me makes it feel like I am here and the environment is over there... and yet all the science I understand allows me to see clearly that I am inseparable from the larger hole and this very much includes the thoughts in my mind.


just to play :twisted: advocate. :)
 
joedirt said:
spacexplorer said:
This kind of thinking that...Something happened therefore that something was always going to happen is a kind of backwards thinking that holds no value whatsoever. It implies nothing, it's just stating the obvious, but to use it as an excuse or an explanation for anything makes no sense.
Click to expand...
It may hold no value, and yet it very well could be true anyway.

Also you say it holds not value and then go on to say that it's stating the obvious..

Well if it is in fact obvious, and true, then isn't there value in the truth?

Also, if there is no choice (which is what you essential declare as obvious), then things like value would be illusory as well.. for who would be the evaluator?

This rabbit hole is deep. Likely deeper than our simply human brains (the most complex things we know of) can fathom...

Personally, I do think there is choice, but no separate entity that does the choosing. How do photons 'choose' to go through one slit or the other in the double slit experiment? There is obviously a choice of sorts, and yet I don't think anyone is claiming that photons are separate entities that have free will..

And no my explanation doesn't really set well either. Everything around me makes it feel like I am here and the environment is over there... and yet all the science I understand allows me to see clearly that I am inseparable from the larger hole and this very much includes the thoughts in my mind.


just to play :twisted: advocate. :)
Click to expand...

Well if you're talking about free will, it holds no value to justify free will in either sense. Yes there is value in stating a truth but if you want to convince someone of something, just stating unrelated truths doesn't really convince anyone. Having a cause and effect already laid out and stating that there was no other way for things to happen and using that to rationalize no free will seems wrong to me and I can't quite put my finger on why.

So if someone says is free will real? and you say no, because everything seems to follow a cause and effect path so free will doesn't exist. Well...everything might follow a cause and effect path but how does free will just escape the equation? Is free will only defined as a 100% completely free choice free of all outside influences?
 
You are completely and utterly connected to the universe at large. The thoughts you are thinking right now are not 'your' thoughts.. they are only arising because you are reading these words.. In this kind of world how could your will possible be free of anything? Would i have 'chosen' to write the words I just wrote if you had not written yours prior?

Can you stop the next thought from popping into your head? Try as hard as you can. If you are a long term meditator you might last 5-10 minutes.. and then against your so called free will the next thought will pop into your head.

Furthermore can you will yourself to feel happy when you are depressed?

Now choice... that could be a fundamental property of the universe...but choice and "free" will do not in fact have to be one and the same. Nature makes 'choices' all the time.

Do sunflowers use will to turn and face the sun?
What about ameba do they will the direction the move?
What about bugs, do the will the direction they hunt for food?
What about animals do they have free will?
Humans?

Exactly where on this tree of life would "free" will have arisen.

Just more food for thought.
 
joedirt said:
You are completely and utterly connected to the universe at large. The thoughts you are thinking right now are not 'your' thoughts.. they are only arising because you are reading these words.. In this kind of world how could your will possible be free of anything? Would i have 'chosen' to write the words I just wrote if you had not written yours prior?

Can you stop the next thought from popping into your head? Try as hard as you can. If you are a long term meditator you might last 5-10 minutes.. and then against your so called free will the next thought will pop into your head.

Furthermore can you will yourself to feel happy when you are depressed?

Now choice... that could be a fundamental property of the universe...but choice and "free" will do not in fact have to be one and the same. Nature makes 'choices' all the time.

Do sunflowers use will to turn and face the sun?
What about ameba do they will the direction the move?
What about bugs, do the will the direction they hunt for food?
What about animals do they have free will?
Humans?

Exactly where on this tree of life would "free" will have arisen.

Just more food for thought.
Click to expand...

Well, everything is just being the way it is by utterly free will, there's so much free will, everything is free will we just don't see it because there's so much of it or we choose to define free will in narrow constricted terms and miss whats staring us right in the face.
 
spacexplorer said:
joedirt said:
You are completely and utterly connected to the universe at large. The thoughts you are thinking right now are not 'your' thoughts.. they are only arising because you are reading these words.. In this kind of world how could your will possible be free of anything? Would i have 'chosen' to write the words I just wrote if you had not written yours prior?

Can you stop the next thought from popping into your head? Try as hard as you can. If you are a long term meditator you might last 5-10 minutes.. and then against your so called free will the next thought will pop into your head.

Furthermore can you will yourself to feel happy when you are depressed?

Now choice... that could be a fundamental property of the universe...but choice and "free" will do not in fact have to be one and the same. Nature makes 'choices' all the time.

Do sunflowers use will to turn and face the sun?
What about ameba do they will the direction the move?
What about bugs, do the will the direction they hunt for food?
What about animals do they have free will?
Humans?

Exactly where on this tree of life would "free" will have arisen.

Just more food for thought.
Click to expand...

Well, everything is just being the way it is by utterly free will, there's so much free will, everything is free will we just don't see it because there's so much of it or we choose to define free will in narrow constricted terms and miss whats staring us right in the face.
Click to expand...

Um.. OK.
 
All humans have free will and can choose as they want. Many of those who do not want to assume responsibility for their acts will argue about this.

Even with advertisement or any external influence we still have free will and can choose to do or buy or see or smell or touch or eat atc. what ever we want. No one can take that away from you so do not try to get rid of that. Those who chose to live without free will are zombies or robot like people. People like that are not really a humans anymore.

That is my opinion and strong experience and feeling of free will and there is nothing in this universe that can take it from me unless I give it up. And I wont because this is gift from God. Without it we would not be masters of this planet but just another free will less animal(well many people already are zombified unfortunately).

With free will we were given huge responsibility to take care of each other and whole planet. We must act on it not give it away.
 
smokerx said:
That is my opinion and strong experience and feeling of free will and there is nothing on in this universe that can take it from me unless I give it up.
Click to expand...
Nothing? Will you not allow death to take your "free will"

If you are imprisoned in a cell will you be able to will your self out of it?


By all means hold to this view. I understand why. It's a comforting position... and you are right. It damn sure feels like there is free will. But, if you are willing to challenge your own comfortable position then examine the nature of your will right down at the source. Look deeply at the thoughts that arise. Can you control which thoughts arise? No you can't and if you think you can then you need to stare longer. Can you stop the next thought from arising?

You might say you can choose to act on a given thought (and I'd agree). But if you can't control which options your mind presents to choose from then exactly how can it be said to be free?
 
joedirt said:
Will you not allow death to take your "free will"
Click to expand...

I do not see death as end of me or my free will

joedirt said:
If you are imprisoned in a cell will you be able to will your self out of it?
Click to expand...

No but I will be able not to will my self into it.

joedirt said:
By all means hold to this view. I understand why. It's a comforting position... and you are right. It damn sure feels like there is free will. But, if you are willing to challenge your own comfortable position then examine the nature of your will right down at the source. Look deeply at the thoughts that arise. Can you control which thoughts arise? No you can't and if you think you can then you need to stare longer. Can you stop the next thought from arising?

You might say you can choose to act on a given thought (and I'd agree). But if you can't control which options your mind presents to choose from then exactly how can it be said to be free?
Click to expand...


You can stop thoughts if you know their source. And if you can not stop it to come then you can definitely make it to go. Thats the free will. Problem start when you start indulging in your thoughts specially I am talking about the bad ones.
 
Back
Top Bottom