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Interesting Article in Psymposia by David Nickles re Compass, Maps, etc
- Thread starter PlantTraveller
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Our very own SnozzleBerry wrote that :d
Great article.
Bump!
This is an excellent analysis of the current situation! Great choice of publication outlet as well! Incredibly well referenced and immensely relevant.
Kudos sir Snozz :thumb_up:
This is an excellent analysis of the current situation! Great choice of publication outlet as well! Incredibly well referenced and immensely relevant.
Kudos sir Snozz :thumb_up:
I understand and agree with a lot of what he says. But i don't see the wish for acceptance as looking at society from a privileged point of view, unless if it would mean "privileged to live in a country where you have freedom of speech and expression".
There's plenty of stuff wrong with western civilisation, but there's one great strength and maybe that's THE great strength of western society, compared to say...china, pakistan or saudi arabia: the relative acceptence of dissident movements.
There is no sharp boundary between culture and counter culture. Ofcourse you can say that this makes many of todays protesters hypocrites because at least a great part of them have always been fully integrated by everything they always claim to fight against. But on the other hand that fuzzy line is what keeps many of us safe.
And i think many of todays dissidents, would rather not have been a dissident. Sure it is a choice. But maybe a choice many of us feel was forced upon us.
I personally feel very ambiguous towards western civilization. I cannot fully embrace it, nor reject it. The only way for me to embrace it, is by knowing that at least i am not the only one to feel this way, and that at least there is room for such thoughts and feelings to exist.
And i find it comforting to know that in the past, dissidence has often lead to great improvements, that at some point even became totally mainstream.
There's plenty of stuff wrong with western civilisation, but there's one great strength and maybe that's THE great strength of western society, compared to say...china, pakistan or saudi arabia: the relative acceptence of dissident movements.
There is no sharp boundary between culture and counter culture. Ofcourse you can say that this makes many of todays protesters hypocrites because at least a great part of them have always been fully integrated by everything they always claim to fight against. But on the other hand that fuzzy line is what keeps many of us safe.
And i think many of todays dissidents, would rather not have been a dissident. Sure it is a choice. But maybe a choice many of us feel was forced upon us.
I personally feel very ambiguous towards western civilization. I cannot fully embrace it, nor reject it. The only way for me to embrace it, is by knowing that at least i am not the only one to feel this way, and that at least there is room for such thoughts and feelings to exist.
And i find it comforting to know that in the past, dissidence has often lead to great improvements, that at some point even became totally mainstream.
Jonabark
Rising Star
The great empires all were very comfortable with lots of liberty for citizens right up until their own habits destroyed them.
With the combination of global warming, species extinction, ocean warming and acidification, and the revival of nuclear weapons research, what is called western civilization has set the entire planet up for a destructive fall. In other words the problems of western civilization are glaring and profound and connecting to their corporate methods deserves thorough debate. What David seems to me to be saying is that the renaissance of psychedelic research has many reasons to be highly skeptical of legal approval if it comes at the expense endorsing corporate greed( think of Monsanto as an example of monopolistic control gone criminal), and militarism( Is the idea to heal soldiers with PTSD and send them back to dismember Afghans Africans and Iraqis? ). There is another obvious question: why should research methods developed and conducted by others and chemistry refined by others be turned over to a monopolistic corporation? Doblin has done good work and successfully fought for a renewal of research, but he is not alone and there is a definite conflict of interest considering the fact that Paleos and Doblin stand to benefit from a for profit system. Paleos says
“To address a public health need of this magnitude requires an enormous infrastructure, which will cost hundreds of millions of dollars to implement…The reality is that…a for-profit company is the only kind of organization capable of operating on this scale.”
This is deeply misleading. The production of the drugs would be cheap, and has always been relatively inexpensive. The millions would be about clinics and clinicians. The obvious means of insuring quality inexpensive psychedelics is to legalize production, set quality standards. and let anyone into the market who can meet the standards. Since many psychedelics are growable there is also no excuse for not letting people grow plants or fungi and partake of them at their own risk. But it would be good if there were standards of purity and effectiveness for commercial sale. AND IF FREE AMERICANS DO WANT TO "TURN ON, TUNE IN, AND DROP OUT" WHY THE HELL CANT THEY? WHAT DOES FREEDOM MEAN IF YOU CAN'T MAKE SUCH A CHOICE?
Every year thousands are going to Peru and Costa Rica for unregulated participation in the use of one of the strongest psychedelics and there is very little evidence of harm or danger. There are similar underground practices in the US with no major problems. So...
As far as turning psychedelics, which have been in use for tens of thousands of years , over to the regulation of the AMA and trained psychiatrists or psychologists, where is the proof that this is a better model than independent self help groups or individual exploration? Let's face it, positive results are not due to those with credentials but a little basic wisdom and the transformative effects of the experience. I believe the wisdom of including guides, sitters, psychologists, healers as best practice in the use of psychoactives can be passed on and that safe practices preserved without government help. Yes, it should include fancy, costly treatment centers as it already does in Peru. But maybe flying to a fancy retreat someplace is really just one more way to dump toxic shit on the planet in pursuit of personal well being at a time in history where we need to fly less and shift away from fossil fuel based means of transport.
The core answer is to decriminalize drugs and treat substance abuse as complex socio-economic and individual problem that it is. The core answer is to use wealth to care for humans rather than to weaponize it. Health care for all- dramatically reduce military spending- shift to green economy . On a planetary level capitalism has been more of a disease than a cure.
Saying we have free expression is misleading, in some cases just dishonest, and certainly dishonest about our past. The government of the US has a long history of persecuting dissidents and truth tellers, of excluding native americans, and slaves and black citizens from freedom of speech and religion. Corporations as corporations also have a long history of suppression and violence against advocates of unions, against safety whistle-blowers, against leftists particularly during the McCarthy era . Recently we have cases like Snowden, Manning, Binney, Kiriakou, Drake, but the list is long and includes the most serious cases like M Vanunu who has spent decades in Israeli prison for exposing their nuclear weapons program ( as though that were still a secret) . Every year thousands of journalists and activists are murdered all around this world created and overseen by western civilization. This is understandable, Western civilization has been mostly a warlike competition among colonialist powers that depend on exploitation for personal and national gain. Free speech often threatens that system and the war within western civilization over free speech, and freedom of thought( freedom to use psychedelics included) is only becoming more violent with the very real rise of fascism.
With the combination of global warming, species extinction, ocean warming and acidification, and the revival of nuclear weapons research, what is called western civilization has set the entire planet up for a destructive fall. In other words the problems of western civilization are glaring and profound and connecting to their corporate methods deserves thorough debate. What David seems to me to be saying is that the renaissance of psychedelic research has many reasons to be highly skeptical of legal approval if it comes at the expense endorsing corporate greed( think of Monsanto as an example of monopolistic control gone criminal), and militarism( Is the idea to heal soldiers with PTSD and send them back to dismember Afghans Africans and Iraqis? ). There is another obvious question: why should research methods developed and conducted by others and chemistry refined by others be turned over to a monopolistic corporation? Doblin has done good work and successfully fought for a renewal of research, but he is not alone and there is a definite conflict of interest considering the fact that Paleos and Doblin stand to benefit from a for profit system. Paleos says
“To address a public health need of this magnitude requires an enormous infrastructure, which will cost hundreds of millions of dollars to implement…The reality is that…a for-profit company is the only kind of organization capable of operating on this scale.”
This is deeply misleading. The production of the drugs would be cheap, and has always been relatively inexpensive. The millions would be about clinics and clinicians. The obvious means of insuring quality inexpensive psychedelics is to legalize production, set quality standards. and let anyone into the market who can meet the standards. Since many psychedelics are growable there is also no excuse for not letting people grow plants or fungi and partake of them at their own risk. But it would be good if there were standards of purity and effectiveness for commercial sale. AND IF FREE AMERICANS DO WANT TO "TURN ON, TUNE IN, AND DROP OUT" WHY THE HELL CANT THEY? WHAT DOES FREEDOM MEAN IF YOU CAN'T MAKE SUCH A CHOICE?
Every year thousands are going to Peru and Costa Rica for unregulated participation in the use of one of the strongest psychedelics and there is very little evidence of harm or danger. There are similar underground practices in the US with no major problems. So...
As far as turning psychedelics, which have been in use for tens of thousands of years , over to the regulation of the AMA and trained psychiatrists or psychologists, where is the proof that this is a better model than independent self help groups or individual exploration? Let's face it, positive results are not due to those with credentials but a little basic wisdom and the transformative effects of the experience. I believe the wisdom of including guides, sitters, psychologists, healers as best practice in the use of psychoactives can be passed on and that safe practices preserved without government help. Yes, it should include fancy, costly treatment centers as it already does in Peru. But maybe flying to a fancy retreat someplace is really just one more way to dump toxic shit on the planet in pursuit of personal well being at a time in history where we need to fly less and shift away from fossil fuel based means of transport.
The core answer is to decriminalize drugs and treat substance abuse as complex socio-economic and individual problem that it is. The core answer is to use wealth to care for humans rather than to weaponize it. Health care for all- dramatically reduce military spending- shift to green economy . On a planetary level capitalism has been more of a disease than a cure.
Saying we have free expression is misleading, in some cases just dishonest, and certainly dishonest about our past. The government of the US has a long history of persecuting dissidents and truth tellers, of excluding native americans, and slaves and black citizens from freedom of speech and religion. Corporations as corporations also have a long history of suppression and violence against advocates of unions, against safety whistle-blowers, against leftists particularly during the McCarthy era . Recently we have cases like Snowden, Manning, Binney, Kiriakou, Drake, but the list is long and includes the most serious cases like M Vanunu who has spent decades in Israeli prison for exposing their nuclear weapons program ( as though that were still a secret) . Every year thousands of journalists and activists are murdered all around this world created and overseen by western civilization. This is understandable, Western civilization has been mostly a warlike competition among colonialist powers that depend on exploitation for personal and national gain. Free speech often threatens that system and the war within western civilization over free speech, and freedom of thought( freedom to use psychedelics included) is only becoming more violent with the very real rise of fascism.
Yes, there's a long history of bad stuff. But all i am saying is that there is also a long tradition of people speaking out. Whistleblowers, dissidents, who are first seen as criminals, traitors or terrorists, but who're eventually being recognized as people who made great sacrifices and in doing so contributed enormously to things like human rights, the environment, or public health. And thus to the society we live in.
So what i am saying is: you can fight a lonely fight, be a dissident, and still believe that you are doing all of this for society as a whole. And that is not such a strange way of looking at it at all.
So what i am saying is: you can fight a lonely fight, be a dissident, and still believe that you are doing all of this for society as a whole. And that is not such a strange way of looking at it at all.
Jonabark
Rising Star
I see more clearly what you are saying. I am actually in agreement that working with an existing system can have good and transformative effects, and particularly so if you stand up for your ideas without compromising your integrity. I think Rick Doblin is such a person and has offered a healing path through the a very appropriate use of psychedelic medicines. I do not actually mind at all if they are mainstreamed for therapeutic use. My concern is the apparent eagerness of Compass to pursue a monopoly ownership of this treatment model.
As to freedom of speech, the problem is evident in the lack of mainstream public voices for peace, and against war, for workers rights and against the power of wall street. Yes most have a great deal of freedom to speak but many of the smartest and best voices, the ones that ordinary people most need to listen to are excluded from the mainstream media. There are also many places within the umbrella of Western civilization where telling the truth or acting to defend the environment or to stop violence can get you killed. Sometimes,as you say it can also be a catalyst for change.
Most of what I said was not really a response to you but to David Nickles article and I probably should have split it into 2 posts.
As to freedom of speech, the problem is evident in the lack of mainstream public voices for peace, and against war, for workers rights and against the power of wall street. Yes most have a great deal of freedom to speak but many of the smartest and best voices, the ones that ordinary people most need to listen to are excluded from the mainstream media. There are also many places within the umbrella of Western civilization where telling the truth or acting to defend the environment or to stop violence can get you killed. Sometimes,as you say it can also be a catalyst for change.
Most of what I said was not really a response to you but to David Nickles article and I probably should have split it into 2 posts.
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