Is psilohuasca an ayahuasca equivalent?

[bk2492]

DMT is very similar to psilocybin, structurally: 4-PO-DMT is an alternate name for psilocybin.

But one difference of the two is that DMT has negligible tolerance buildup.…

Dennis McKenna, "Psilocin and DMT same thing."

Discuss…

 

[new_science]

I don't think Dennis is an unintelligent person, however I feel like something may have been lost in translation here. High doses of many psychedelic tryptamines such as 4HODMT, 5HODMT, and n,nDMT do in fact lead to *similar* spaces and places, yes. Though I am not sure at all, if pressed, that Dennis would argue that they are precisely the same.

I also think anybody experienced with both mushrooms and dmt, or both psilohuasca and ayahuasca would be able to articulate various differences between the experiences.

n,nDMT is really unique and its individual character is in large part why we have this website devoted to it.

 

[doubledog]

Caapi is the primary component of both, so yes, they are very similar. It does not matter that much what is the tryptamine admixture, but of course, there are some slight differencies between DMT and psilo alkaloids.

 

[Jamie01]

The visions with psilo are maybe richer for me…more colours.

I’m more likely to feel like I’m dying on psilocybin. More likely to hear the weird carrier wave mechanical voice talking to me. Psilocybin might evoke more emotions in me. It’s a bit more of a mind warp.

The similarities far outweigh the differences when I compare other psychedelics to DMT. At least orally they are equal in my mind in terms of power. DMT being so easy to vape changes everything about it.

Steve Beyer(wrote singing to the plants) once described ayahuasca as the most visionary, mushrooms the most entheogenic and cacti the most empathic.

 

[Transform]

DMT is very similar to psilocybin, structurally: 4-PO-DMT is an alternate name for psilocybin.

But one difference of the two is that DMT has negligible tolerance buildup.…

Dennis McKenna, "Psilocin and DMT same thing."

Discuss…

It would be great to know what you think about this matter.

I'm not sure I could distinguish psilohuasca from a DMT-huasca in a blind test, except maybe in terms of duration. They would taste different as liquids, so it would have to be capsules. Let me know when the experiment takes place, so I can sign up


DMT is nothing like DMT*, apart from the two methyl groups…

*One of these stands for 'dimethylterephthalate'.

 

[dithyramb]

Mushrooms are like DMT with an additional earthy and emotional dimension. The general feeling with harmala is different as well, it's like you can feel the additional weight of a tryptamine that doesn't need an maoi to be felt on your receptors.

Also, mushrooms lean toward being funny and DMT is plain serious, or at least neutral.

Besides that, the energy flow is different and unique to all mushroom and plant species.

 

[Jamie01]

4-AcO-DMT felt closer to DMT than mushrooms…so I would assume whatever species have the cleanest psilocin/psilocybin profile would be the closest to chacruna etc your going to get.

My only experience is cubes and psilocybe cyans.

 

[Transform]

4-AcO-DMT felt closer to DMT than mushrooms…so I would assume whatever species have the cleanest psilocin/psilocybin profile would be the closest to chacruna etc your going to get.

My only experience is cubes and psilocybe cyans.

Great point - psilocybe mushrooms generally contain various, and varying, amounts of other substances with their own nuanced psychoactive effects - baeocystin, norbaeocystin, and sometimes even phenethylamine, along with several types of β-carboline, just to put it briefly.

 

[doubledog]

Ime psilo CEV are more colourful, structured and ornamental (but this also depends on exact type of mushroom), but main difference is that mushrooms "have" some kind of funny nature or humour, which is not present with chaliponga or chacruna.

In my case, lessons from psilohuasca are much more concrete (in one case it was just simple advice: "you should learn german language"), aya does not give me such clear messages, but works differently, it influenced my life more.

 

[dithyramb]

My only experience is with liberty caps and cubes. The two are quite different. Liberty caps are more loving and more heart centered. To me liberty caps are quite an empathogen. And with rue it definitely is an easier effective ego death (=deep reset and healing) than with DMT plants.

I am more interested in combining liberty caps with amanita for a local "mushroom huasca," with amanita taking the role of caapi as the dominant healing/guiding force in the medicine.

I believe all mushrooms and plants have their affinities when it comes to combining them with other mushrooms or plants. Rue with mushrooms is a very powerful and effective medicine, and to me it is superior to rue with barks. But there are other plants that better "spiritually marry rue" just as caapi and Chacruna are seen as spouses. My hunch is that amanita and liberty caps would also marry pretty well but it's just my speculation with no experience at this point. Needless to say, it is a very advanced combination which I don't recommend to anybody who doesn't have extensive experience with both mushrooms.

 

[Here&Now]

I don't think Dennis is an unintelligent person, however I feel like something may have been lost in translation here. High doses of many psychedelic tryptamines such as 4HODMT, 5HODMT, and n,nDMT do in fact lead to *similar* spaces and places, yes. Though I am not sure at all, if pressed, that Dennis would argue that they are precisely the same.

I also think anybody experienced with both mushrooms and dmt, or both psilohuasca and ayahuasca would be able to articulate various differences between the experiences.

n,nDMT is really unique and its individual character is in large part why we have this website devoted to it.

Yeah, it could be a misunderstanding, or perhaps Dennis would just need to expand on his opinion to get to the point where he starts listing their subjective differences. It's difficult to tell what he thinks regarding this.

 

[Transform]

and speaking of psilohuasca… was just reading a Reddit thread where Terence and Dennis McKenna’s experiment at La Chorrera was well summarized:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Psychonaut/s/Jnl0grvIrI

I wish I still had my edition of "True Hallucinations"… that was a fun read.

 

[plumsmooth]

Great point - psilocybe mushrooms generally contain various, and varying, amounts of other substances with their own nuanced psychoactive effects - baeocystin, norbaeocystin, and sometimes even phenethylamine, along with several types of β-carboline, just to put it briefly.

This would have to explain the differing Vibe of the NATS?

 

[Transform]

This would have to explain the differing Vibe of the NATS?

Possibly, at least in part. There may be other factors to take into account, like mannitol that can affect pharmacodynamics, or just the sheer potency of a species. This list is not necessarily exhaustive and other neuroactive or modulatory substances may also play a role, except I can't comment on, say, GABA-ergic substances or whatever else may or may not remain to be discovered in a given species of mushroom:

While the jury is still out on the possible modulating influence of other secondary compounds in these fungi (such as other tryptamines, terpenes and trace beta-carbolines), it is worth considering that we’ve barely scratched the surface of chemically profiling them, with one study paper concluding that "our understanding of the chemical diversity of these mushrooms is largely incomplete". We should be aware that these fungi exist not merely as packets of pure psilocybin/psilocin, but as chemically complex organisms. Fungi are master chemical alchemists, and there is a growing body of research suggesting that there may be more than psilocybin alone that contributes to the effect of these fungi

 

[Yuxibu]

Jurema is very different from chacruna or chagropanga or acacia. And it's all DMT.

Cambodian cubes are very different from golden teachers or APEs. And it's all Psylo.

In the end they all take you to a similar place but express themselves in distinct ways. It's all about the nuances. And I would say caapi and Syrian rue are distinctively different from each other even if they're both MAOIs.

So to really answer you question, it would depend if you are using just enough caapi to achieve MAO inhibition, in that case the qualitative differences from the tryptamine source will be more obvious.. or using a lot more than necessary and making it the base ground of the experience, that way it will be heavily modulating the tryptamines and the differences between them will be less obvious.

 

[Tricholoops]

DMT is very similar to psilocybin, structurally: 4-PO-DMT is an alternate name for psilocybin.

But one difference of the two is that DMT has negligible tolerance buildup.…

Dennis McKenna, "Psilocin and DMT same thing."

Discuss…

DMT is more than just a regular drug or substance, its a _neurotransmitter_.
If we could develop tolerance to neurotransmitters, then, the whole system wouldn't work for too long.
Therefore, the human body has a resource - neurotransmitters, by definition, cannot build up tolerance.
Biochemistry is an utterly boring subject, but it can answer a lot of questions (but it can also bring more questions than answers too).

TPb