Is this common on DMT? TIHKAL paragraph

[fairbanks]

Here is a scientific study on the effects of harmaline overdose thru p. harmal.

http://bit.ly/TVAJpx

I shouldn't need to cite anything else, it's obvious that alkaloids that stimulate the nervous system have the potential to be overdosed on causing hypertension.

 

[fairbanks]

You have repeatedly stated that synthetic harmaline is dangerous

NO I HAVENT. Please re-read this thread. I said repeatedly that it's riskier as far as dosage goes for synthetic harmaline. I have never said harmaline is dangerous in and of itself, simply that there is the potential to OD.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

You have repeatedly stated that synthetic harmaline is dangerous

NO I HAVENT. Please re-read this thread. I said repeatedly that it's riskier as far as dosage goes for synthetic harmaline. I have never said harmaline is dangerous in and of itself, simply that there is the potential to OD.

And you have ignored my repeated inquiries as to what dose ranges you are talking about. It has already been explained why the article you keep citing is inappropriate for the claims you are making (if we take your dosing assertions with regards to that article, you are claiming that people might miscalculate their doses by grams of harmaline).

This is the last time I am going to ask. At what dose ranges are you asserting people can make this "potentially fatal" mistake? And how is that relevant to the paper you keep citing? And why is synthetic harmaline riskier to dose than extracted harmaline?

Can you answer these questions? Or any of them?

 

[fairbanks]

Both synthetic and extracted you are dealing with MGs which can leave room for error in the proper dose. I think you have mistaken me, I'm not saying that synthetic harmaline is dangerous than natural source, but that when dealing with MGs of powder it's riskier.

I'm just saying be careful when doing that.

 

[dreamer042]

Harmaline extracted from P. Harmala is identical to harmaline synthesized in a laboratory.

That one reference has an aside pertaining to an overdose(50 grams) of P. Harmala seeds in conjunction with coffee (which is a CNS stimulant). This has absolutely nothing at all to do with extracted or synthesized harmaline and the toxicity there of. It also makes no mention of hypertensive crisis at all.

Human Toxicity
While this plant has traditionally been used in Bedouin medicine as an emmenagogue and as abortifacient agent [17-19] there are few reports on its human toxic effects and syndrome. Saiah et al. [20] reported a case of overdose with P. harmala in a young lady (aged 27 years) who has taken 50 g of seeds of this plant for the treatment of amenorrhea. Few minutes after ingestion of seeds in a cup of coffee, signs of intoxication were observed and the patient was taken to hospital. The signs of P. harmala overdose comprised of hallucinations and neuro-sensorial syndromes, bradycardia and GI disturbances such as nausea and vomiting.

Para-clinical tests showed that the function of liver and kidney to be normal and the patient had a normal hematological picture. She was discharged from hospital few hours later after signs of intoxication had disappeared.

+Bioline International Official Site (site up-dated regularly)

Here is some further information regarding the actual toxicity of harmaline:

is harmaline toxic? - Harmalas - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

 

[SnozzleBerry]

fairbanks, you still have not given any dose ranges, leaving your assertions seriously wanting.

If your only point was "weighing mg's is hard" why not just say that? Reading through your prior posts, that doesn't seem to me to be what you were saying, but if that's where you want to leave it, sure, that's why you should get a decent scale.

I think you have mistaken me, I'm not saying that synthetic harmaline is dangerous than natural source...

If he would have done real ayahuasca instead of the synthetic chems maybe he would have had a better experience.

 

[fairbanks]

Having a better experience vs danger is a big difference. Yeah I said real ayahuasca might have given him a better experience and that's just my opinion. That doesn't mean I think synthetic harmaline is more dangerous than a natural source like ayahuasca, I think it's risker when it comes to dosing though.

I was saying that all along so I'm sorry I didn't spell it out in "weighing mg's is harder"

 

[jamie]

You have repeatedly stated that synthetic harmaline is dangerous

NO I HAVENT. Please re-read this thread. I said repeatedly that it's riskier as far as dosage goes for synthetic harmaline. I have never said harmaline is dangerous in and of itself, simply that there is the potential to OD.

You realize that makes no sense though, right? Harmaline is harmaline is harmaline..synth or extracted..there is no difference whatsoever.

 

[jamie]

Here is a scientific study on the effects of harmaline overdose thru p. harmal.

http://bit.ly/TVAJpx

I shouldn't need to cite anything else, it's obvious that alkaloids that stimulate the nervous system have the potential to be overdosed on causing hypertension.

Thats an old study many here have seen over and over again that is just bunk in relation to how any sane person here uses these beta carbolines. Take a look at the doses being used. Pushing the conclusions of a stufy like trying to make it fit in relation to the use of them here is iffy and shows only bias. Show me any study anywhere that finds this in the type of reasonable doses we ingest here please.

It's just like the rat studies done with harmaline and ibogaine..yes repeated frequent exposure to just rediculously large doses of most substances is not a great thing.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

That doesn't mean I think synthetic harmaline is more dangerous than a natural source like ayahuasca, I think it's risker when it comes to dosing though.

I. would. still. like. to. know. at. what. doses. you. are. talking. about.

Can you please tell me?

 

[dreamer042]

First off, TiHKAL was not written by an in-experienced tripper lmao. It was written by the Shulgins and is a sequel to their first book PiHKAL both of which were mainly psychedelic trip reports.

At the dose of harmaline and DMT he had, it's understandable why he had a difficult time. That's basically like a full on ayahuasca admixture trip minus all the plant material and THH. The shulgins were synthesizing chemicals and using them, alexander shulgin was a chemist not a botanist. If he would have done real ayahuasca instead of the synthetic chems maybe he would have had a better experience. You aren't even supposed to be walking around with that much harmaline in you. Regardless, the effect of ego smashing that he talks about makes sense and is very common from ayahuasca admixtures.

Actually Sasha and Anne have taken ayahuasca and they said they both a terrible experience on it as well. I've been trying to find the source for where I read/heard that. I'm fairly sure it was in the Ask The Shulgin's Talk they gave for Palenque Norte in 2006. I'll keep searching and post a link when I do find it.

Found it! start @ 3:41
[YOUTUBE]

 

[fairbanks]

Alls I was saying is to be careful orally dosing synthetic harmaline. The room for error with MGs is a lot larger than if you are dosing a plant containing these alkaloids. I'm sorry the studies I provided are not comparable.

 

[VIII]

Well this is not how I operate buddy. I avoid bad times whenever I can.

Then I'd say psychedelics are probably not for you.

Probably best to stick to MDMA.

I agree that if you want to avoid any potential for a rough few minutes/hours then psychedelics are probably not for you. Although personally I don't enjoy MDMA.

edit: I'm speaking of all psychedelics I'm experienced having bad trips with: DMT, Mushrooms.

I suppose it depends on what you think a "bad time" consists of. In my experience, what you experience on psychedelics depends on you. You will experience yourself from a new perspective and at first some of these perspectives can appear negative and bring you into some seemingly depressed thoughts. After looking through this perspective a little longer you may notice that this perspective is not negative at all, but something you needed to see. That depressed loop of thoughts has been transformed and through the window of psychedelics emerges a new understanding of that depression, from which joy is free to sprout.

The question becomes are you willing to temporarily experience these aspects of yourself? Are you willing to step outside of your normal self to see what you are truly capable of? Are you willing to fully surrender yourself and trust that you will be OK in the end?

Never fight her flow.
The words feel heavy, but they're soft as snow.
From this short despair, I found the life I wear.

You have to do a little digging to get to the goods and digging can be hard work at times and a jolly ol' time at others. To be honest before I tried psychedelics I thought I would have many more bad trips than I've had. Perhaps I'm lucky.

In the end for me it has always ended in the following ways:
1) Suddenly see it in positive light.
2) Realize I'm just tripping, these thoughts are ridiculous.
3) Later (post-trip) understand the meaning of the negative thoughts I had.
4) Later (post-trip) realize I was just tripping, those thoughts were ridiculous.
Possible #5: Denial???


Best of luck on your journeys if you choose to follow them and welcome to the Nexus.

 

[Eliyahu]

First off, TiHKAL was not written by an in-experienced tripper lmao. It was written by the Shulgins and is a sequel to their first book PiHKAL both of which were mainly psychedelic trip reports.

At the dose of harmaline and DMT he had, it's understandable why he had a difficult time. That's basically like a full on ayahuasca admixture trip minus all the plant material and THH. The shulgins were synthesizing chemicals and using them, alexander shulgin was a chemist not a botanist. If he would have done real ayahuasca instead of the synthetic chems maybe he would have had a better experience. You aren't even supposed to be walking around with that much harmaline in you. Regardless, the effect of ego smashing that he talks about makes sense and is very common from ayahuasca admixtures.

Actually Sasha and Anne have taken ayahuasca and they said they both a terrible experience on it as well. I've been trying to find the source for where I read/heard that. I'm fairly sure it was in the Ask The Shulgin's Talk they gave for Palenque Norte in 2006. I'll keep searching and post a link when I do find it.

It does not suprise me at all that the shulgin's had bad Ayahuasca experiences. From what I have observed from my personal explorations with Ayahuasca....the Ayahuasca ally absolutely despises ecstacy. Of course that's just my own experience.

 

[RayTracer]

IMO the MAOI part of ayahuasca/pharmahuasca is like the window that you look through and the dmt is like the scene your looking at...

With ayahuasca "the window" is very clear. When you start removing components then IMO the window becomes fuzzy or obscured in certain ways.

IMO Straight DMT without harmala gives a completely different effect than oral DMT

Interesting Eliyahu. I've never heard it put like that. I've only experienced freebase DMT.
Could you please elaborate a little more on the differences between freebase DMT and ayahuasca?

I've wanted to try ayahuasca since my friend told me about his experiences with it back in the mid 90's. The purge always sounded kind of scary, but I hear it can actually be pretty healing.

[]Deace

 

[nen888]

..my middle-ground over-simplification would be:

Harmine (& harmalas generally) modulate or alter the metabolic process/effects of DMT..
(they don't just 'give you more time')

some individuals (maybe 10-15% at a guess) are quite sensitive to harmlas, and smaller dosage ranges can elicit more extreme effects in them..

and last, the harmalas are potentially potentiating a wide range of both endogenous and imported compounds (amines), so general health, brain chemistry at the time, diet/drugs etc. (which, as a psych i believe are all
inter-related with general mental 'peace' ) play a role..

like, not everyone sees elves..

 

[Eliyahu]

IMO the MAOI part of ayahuasca/pharmahuasca is like the window that you look through and the dmt is like the scene your looking at...

With ayahuasca "the window" is very clear. When you start removing components then IMO the window becomes fuzzy or obscured in certain ways.

IMO Straight DMT without harmala gives a completely different effect than oral DMT

Interesting Eliyahu. I've never heard it put like that. I've only experienced freebase DMT.
Could you please elaborate a little more on the differences between freebase DMT and ayahuasca?

I've wanted to try ayahuasca since my friend told me about his experiences with it back in the mid 90's. The purge always sounded kind of scary, but I hear it can actually be pretty healing.

[]Deace

IMO the Ayahuasca is far more organic and earthly in many ways, more reminicant of an ultra high mescaline dose visual wise than straight DMT. For me there is much more euphoria involved in Ayahuasca than with DMT as well...I refer to it as "true ecstacy".

The purge is actually enjoyable. It leaves me feeling like million bucks.
When I don't want to purge I use caapi changa. Although I eat so much fast food that I feel like I need a good purge every two months or 3000 miles whatever comes first.

Ayahuasca experiences vary greatly from individual to individual. IMO this factor is dependant on whether the Ayahusca ally accepts or rejects a person.

 

[RayTracer]

That sounds amazing:lol: I tend to think that the molecule is somewhat selective about who it accepts too. I myself have felt absolutely embraced by dmt. Thanks for sharing

 

[Mars Man 233]

Well this is not how I operate buddy. I avoid bad times whenever I can.

Then I'd say psychedelics are probably not for you.

Probably best to stick to MDMA.

I agree that if you want to avoid any potential for a rough few minutes/hours then psychedelics are probably not for you. Although personally I don't enjoy MDMA.

edit: I'm speaking of all psychedelics I'm experienced having bad trips with: DMT, Mushrooms.

I suppose it depends on what you think a "bad time" consists of. In my experience, what you experience on psychedelics depends on you. You will experience yourself from a new perspective and at first some of these perspectives can appear negative and bring you into some seemingly depressed thoughts. After looking through this perspective a little longer you may notice that this perspective is not negative at all, but something you needed to see. That depressed loop of thoughts has been transformed and through the window of psychedelics emerges a new understanding of that depression, from which joy is free to sprout.

The question becomes are you willing to temporarily experience these aspects of yourself? Are you willing to step outside of your normal self to see what you are truly capable of? Are you willing to fully surrender yourself and trust that you will be OK in the end?

Never fight her flow.
The words feel heavy, but they're soft as snow.
From this short despair, I found the life I wear.

You have to do a little digging to get to the goods and digging can be hard work at times and a jolly ol' time at others. To be honest before I tried psychedelics I thought I would have many more bad trips than I've had. Perhaps I'm lucky.

In the end for me it has always ended in the following ways:
1) Suddenly see it in positive light.
2) Realize I'm just tripping, these thoughts are ridiculous.
3) Later (post-trip) understand the meaning of the negative thoughts I had.
4) Later (post-trip) realize I was just tripping, those thoughts were ridiculous.
Possible #5: Denial???


Best of luck on your journeys if you choose to follow them and welcome to the Nexus.

After watching the video posted here about the shulgin's ayahuasca experience and them not gaining anything from their bad experience I don't see what's to gain from it. These people are very experienced. They wrote 2 books. I'll do some more reading before choosing which psychedelic to try first.

 

[RayTracer]

Obviously it's a pretty subjective experience. Did you hear them also say they that they didn't like marijuana either?
To each his own. I just think you basing your descion on the Shulgin's experience is rediculous:surprised