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Kash's Advanced LSA Extraction

Migrated topic.
Ah nevermind. I've been thinking about this for a while and in my head I mixed it up. Microwave MgSO4 to make it anhydrous and put that it room temp ammonia. My bad. But how do you know when its done? Density?
 
Hey Kash, kudos on the extraction logic! That is probably one of the best possible ways to go about an aqueous extraction by manipulating the nitrogen's charge to change its water and organic solubility accordingly. I have a few questions and such tho

Maybe I can save you a step but why do you want anhydrous acetone to start? That small amount of water and acetone will just make a small equilibrium of http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/Hydration_reaction_of_acetone.PNG ... but it doesnt really affect its solvent ability, and then next step your adding water anyway. Although technically it will still slightly slow down the evaporation rate of the acetone afterwards.


I am curious to know if you are testing the pH somehow to make sure it is in your ideal range? Mostly asking because if you accidentally put in to much citric acid or ammonia, you could very easily get away from the ideal range and isomerize the lsa to its inactive form. For people without a pH testing way, I would recommend lots of Sodium bicarbonate (typically baking soda)as a base that wont be strong enough to isomerize the lsa nearly as easily as ammonia can.

I am assuming your dose is the entire drink you made right? Have you tried storing this (presumably without the peppermint oil added in yet) for any period of time? I stored blotter for 6+ months once and had it be perfectly fine so the molecule is generally somewhat stable at room temp. Not sure how putting it into solution would alter that stability. It would be pretty cool if you didnt have to do an extraction everytime you wanted to do it.. you could save up!

I am also curious to further the peppermint oil idea. Ideas float around that say is converts the lsa to lsh because of its acetaldehyde content. Others say its just pharmacological or a placebo, but I also wonder if this can be furthered. Have you tried mixing it for longer with the oil? Tried drastically adding more oil? I wonder if that could help.

Anyway kudos man I definitely hope to try this sooner or later. :thumb_up:
 
Maybe I can save you a step but why do you want anhydrous acetone to start? That small amount of water and acetone will just make a small equilibrium of http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/Hydration_reaction_of_acetone.PNG ... but it doesn't really affect its solvent ability, and then next step your adding water anyway. Although technically it will still slightly slow down the evaporation rate of the acetone afterwards.
Click to expand...


Yeah i was thinking the same thing. Since acetone still absorbs water while drying on a fan, I don't know how you guys dry it to powder that way. any tips?

My end product is like a very small amount of liquid (no crystals) after i scrape everything up. Still glows in UV. I extracted from 50 hbwr Hawaiian strain.

I just dumped it in vodka, still not sure if i'd like to try it soon.
 
Powerdana said:
Hey Kash, kudos on the extraction logic! That is probably one of the best possible ways to go about an aqueous extraction by manipulating the nitrogen's charge to change its water and organic solubility accordingly. I have a few questions and such tho

Maybe I can save you a step but why do you want anhydrous acetone to start? That small amount of water and acetone will just make a small equilibrium of http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/Hydration_reaction_of_acetone.PNG ... but it doesnt really affect its solvent ability, and then next step your adding water anyway. Although technically it will still slightly slow down the evaporation rate of the acetone afterwards.


I am curious to know if you are testing the pH somehow to make sure it is in your ideal range? Mostly asking because if you accidentally put in to much citric acid or ammonia, you could very easily get away from the ideal range and isomerize the lsa to its inactive form. For people without a pH testing way, I would recommend lots of Sodium bicarbonate (typically baking soda)as a base that wont be strong enough to isomerize the lsa nearly as easily as ammonia can.

I am assuming your dose is the entire drink you made right? Have you tried storing this (presumably without the peppermint oil added in yet) for any period of time? I stored blotter for 6+ months once and had it be perfectly fine so the molecule is generally somewhat stable at room temp. Not sure how putting it into solution would alter that stability. It would be pretty cool if you didnt have to do an extraction everytime you wanted to do it.. you could save up!

I am also curious to further the peppermint oil idea. Ideas float around that say is converts the lsa to lsh because of its acetaldehyde content. Others say its just pharmacological or a placebo, but I also wonder if this can be furthered. Have you tried mixing it for longer with the oil? Tried drastically adding more oil? I wonder if that could help.

Anyway kudos man I definitely hope to try this sooner or later. :thumb_up:
Click to expand...
Thanks for the kind words.

The idea behind keeping the acetone anhydrous is to not pull extra garbage that may be soluble in the water but not in the acetone. You could leave out the desiccant if you really want to, wouldnt affect much. However this extraction is primarily meant for purity.

SWIM likes to use a pH meter to keep the pH between 9-10, ideally 9.5. The alkaloids have a very strange way of acting like natural pH dye, if it is based proper the solution turns green (9-10pH), based too much it turns blue(10+pH), though the color takes about 15 minutes to develop.

About the peppermint oil, SWIM has done LSA with only 5 minutes mixing and had a terrible time just feeling sedated and anxious and not being able to sleep. SWIM's other times he has mixed for atleast 15-20 minutes and had a great time, having minor to significant visuals, euphoria, and very minor sedation. SWIM has not tested mixing with peppermint oil for long periods of time (weeks/months) becuase was worried of unforseen chem reactions, but it could probably be done. He also has stored the vial for up to a month with no loss of potency. :p
 
dehingoli said:
Yeah i was thinking the same thing. Since acetone still absorbs water while drying on a fan, I don't know how you guys dry it to powder that way. any tips?

My end product is like a very small amount of liquid (no crystals) after i scrape everything up. Still glows in UV. I extracted from 50 hbwr Hawaiian strain.
Click to expand...
Any water the acetone would absorb from the air would be only trace amounts and will leave a powder when dried.

If the product you end up with after evaporating your nonpolar solvent is an oil, it is OK as long as there is no more solvent smell. This just indicates you have some impurities in there, or the extract absorbed some water.
 
Kash said:
The idea behind keeping the acetone anhydrous is to not pull extra garbage that may be soluble in the water but not in the acetone. You could leave out the desiccant if you really want to, wouldnt affect much. However this extraction is primarily meant for purity.
Click to expand...

Yea I agree it wouldn't affect it at all. There is probably way less than .1% of water in there anyway so I would expect almost no difference in the solvents extraction ability. Your acid base extraction is still great for purity.

And storing it up to a month is just fantastic. Im guessing you stored it in a freezer? or at room temp?
 
I want to try this tek out in the winter but one thing I would like to know.
Can I just use some good old russian vodka 😁 instead of ethnanol?
Is there some chemical stuff I dont see, because I dont see a prob in that..

thanks for the good tek:)
 
thanks for the tek kash

could you elaborate on the best way to store the LSA? also, how long would this last before degrading?
 
That result looks incredible HBWR is a amazingly visionary! My last and only one was a huge breakthrough on 12 seeds after a few drinks earlier on. My only solid memory of it was being under a sunlight of love and awareness I was living a life somewhere in total bliss but the people there seemed to know I was just visiting and were happy to show me around.
Being in this dreamspace seemed like it went on for what seemed like the whole night, it realy was the space between wake and sleep.
I doubt I could duplicate this experience I think I may have had just enough alcohol to not make me unconcious and enough in my stomach to extract the actives while inhibiting maoi.
Anyway great tek youve really piqued my interest :D
 
Yes vodka is ethanol and will work fine for LSA. Store the solution in a cool dark place. 😉 LSA can be a very strong visionary experience with the right dosage and purity.
 
Had a brief glance at the thread and the tech. Very nice work.

A couple of questions
Perhaps I missed it but was there any mention (or does anyone have any idea) of the length of time the final product can be stored in optimal condtions (ie a frridge or freezer)?

Would it be possible to salt out the LSA freebase using a method similar to FASA/W/I and store product as a powder? (Is there any advantage to storing in acidic solution? Would powder not be more beneficial for thwarting oxidation, storage conditions equal?)

Cheers
T
 
Kept in some kind of tube, wrapped in tinfoil in the freezer should keep your molecules stable for quite a while. I work in a molecular biology lab and that's what we do with our sensitive reagents and they store quite well.

Blessings
~ND
 
Thanks for the reply ND. I am going to try this extraction tomorrow, but wont be interested in experimenting with the results for at least another week or more.

Edited for clarity upon completion..

So after finding all the materials, with the exception of ammonia, which I attempted to replace witha very dilute NaOH solution, I started this procedure. Also worth noting In place of the HBWR seeds I used 6.3 grams of Rivea Corymbosa seeds.

Procedure Notes.
Upon evaporating the acetone pulls (steps 2-4) I ended up with a white opaque gooey mess. This didnt smell of acetone so I proceeded to the next step.

I found it difficult to determine how much of my lye solution (0.25 grams in 500 ml R.O H2O) to add because I currently do not have a pH meter, as the probe on my old one dried out and couldnt be replaced). So for the first and second pulls I think I had only a combined total of 6 mL of said solution. Worth noting, the solution was milky and not yellow as mentioned in step 7.

Putting this solution (with the toluol) under black light I noticed that none of the toluoul glowed but the solution glowed green. This and the lack of a yellow solution concerned me so I added ~30 mL more of my lye solution (I was getting quite impatient at this point..... I had not given myself enough time to complete this project and was rushing by this point). After this additional base my solution turned yellow and I proceeded with pull 3.

Note - as I figured I would have less LSA to pull compared to 100 HBWR (as stated in the tek), I used ~33 ml Toluol per pull for a total of 100 ml.

10 minutes into the 3rd pull I put the whole thing under black light to see that the freebased solution glowed less green but the toluol still did not glow. Or it appeared to not glow. Fed up I said "oh well", attempted to finish the 3rd pull and evaporated under a fan, fearing that all my hard work was for not. However, I ran into a nasty emulsion. I had smaller emulsions in the 1st/2nd pulls but they were very minor in comparison and I just let the bubbles back into the solution (using my sep funnel) figuring I would pick up any remaining toluol in the last pull.

Adding more lye solution (another 10 ml) did nothing and fearing I would oxidize (/destroy) the LSA due to excessive base I added a pinch of non iodized canning salt, swirled, added more salt, repeat until emulsion was significantly reduced.

I then separated the solution, put the dish in front of a fan to evaporate and headed to work. I was relieved I had dealt with the emulsion but was worried I had botched this initial LSA extraction for reasons already mentioned (not giving enough time, not enough base [first 2 pulls] and excessive base for the last).

Upon my return home I found my dish containing powder and upon placing the dish under black light it glowed as in Kashs picture, though there was not nearly as much powder in my dish :( .

Anyways, this powder was put back into acidic solution (though not filtered.. I will before consuming) and stored in a mason jar with some rice as desiccant in the fridge.

I will update upon trying my results.

Thanks Kash. At the least this was a learning experience :) (though I hope my efforts will be somewhat fruitful)

Cheers,
The Dude
 
Did a mass extraction from 500 grams powdered Heavenly Blue seeds using hexane to defat prior to multiple pulls with 90% ethanol. Yielded considerable quantity of oily goo with clear/whitish crystals suspended in it. I suspect incomplete defatting due to insufficient quantity of hexane. Can I adapt this tek to utilize that yielded product and salvage desired alkaloid?
 
out there said:
Did a mass extraction from 500 grams powdered Heavenly Blue seeds using hexane to defat prior to multiple pulls with 90% ethanol. Yielded considerable quantity of oily goo with clear/whitish crystals suspended in it. I suspect incomplete defatting due to insufficient quantity of hexane. Can I adapt this tek to utilize that yielded product and salvage desired alkaloid?
Click to expand...
Yes. In theory, it shouldn't matter what you are extracting the LSA alkaloid from (organic goo or wood), the solubility don't change.
 
I tried this extraction using around 150g freshly ground morning glory seeds.

Everything went approximately as planned. The acetone extraction was easy enough, evaporating the acetone also easy. Extracting into citric acid water, I had to work the putty quite a lot. Most of it didn't dissolve, but I kept mushing it until I was satisfied. I did it again with more citric acid water, just to make sure.

Then I filtered it out, then defatted with naphtha. This yielded yellow naphtha, so I repeated this twice. I then isolated the aqueous layer, slowly added ammonia using my pH meter to land firmly on pH 9.5 (I had noticed that additional precipitates formed when adding more ammonia from pH 8.8 so I continued until no more precipitate was noted, at 9.5). I extracted twice with toluene.

I evaporated the toluene solution to yield a viscous yellow goop. The crusty crysally solid I was hoping for was there, to be found as little chunks in the goop.

I dissolved this chunky goop in some unknown-proof ethanol (home distilled, estimated 90-94% etoh) and added a pinch of citric acid (I have no tartaric acid). The ethanol solution does glow blue in blacklight.

I wonder if I should have defatted maybe 5 times with naphtha? Or perhaps since I was using almost 2-year-old morning glory seeds, the alks have degraded into an oily substance. My pet theory is that morning glories just have so little LSA that using anything but water to extract them is asking for trouble with oily substances. I think this TEK is best for HBWR. I won't be trying this extraction with morning glory again. I will try with woodrose and see how it differs.
 
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