WARNING: vaping ketamine may have a high addictive potential, and the physiological safety of doing it is unknown.
I have stumbled upon something interesting, but it's not yet clear what.
Recently I've been interested in exploring the possibility of vaping ketamine in e-juice, as I just can't get insufflation right, particularly when dealing with high doses. I can't get it to work much better than rectal, so often I end up needing over 200mg to come close to a hole, and it's still likely to be underwhelming.
The melting point of ketamine HCl is about 252C and the boiling point is about 364C, so it should be stable enough and would probably remain solid when atomized. The main problem would be solubility: it's only about 60mg/mL in propylene glycol (PG), which would make it very difficult to reach a decent dose by vaping PG. There are some reports of "K-pods" being used in SE Asia, particularly Hong Kong, but it's very likely that they only aimed to provide low recreational doses.
Having obtained recently a few 0.5ml CCELL TH2 Evomax carts (to be used with 5-MeO-DMT), I decided to experiment with one of them. I have a tank and mod, but the tank is currently full of DMT.
I don't currently have available PG or VG (I will soon), so I decided to use a 70% PG, 30% VG mix I have. It also has 40mg/ml CBD, and terpenes (no THC).
In a hot water bath, I was able to dissolve over 90mg ketamine HCl in 0.5ml, to my surprise. Maybe ketamine HCl is more soluble in VG, or maybe the CBD made a difference, I don't know. It seemed to stay dissolved after cooling down.
Testing a few long draws, held for 20 seconds, I reached in the span of about 20 minutes a light state of dissociation, equivalent to maybe 25mg ketamine (I'm not too experienced with low doses, have only tried 25mg once). This was surprising, because I had much less than 1/4 of the cart, it couldn't have been more than 1/8.
I decided to try a higher dose, but I was wary of attempting to go for higher dosages vaping only. So I decided to insufflate 100mg ketamine (divided in 4 bumps, taken in two rounds about 10 minutes apart) to provide a strong base, and see if I could reach a strong experience by adding vaped ketamine. Given how poorly insufflated ketamine works for me, such a dose by itself would be severely disabling to me, but not particularly psychdedelic nor close to the hole.
About 10 minutes after my second insufflated dose, I started vaping. I could soon feel the come-up accelerate a lot. I kept vaping, maybe I took 8 5-second pulls, holding about 20 seconds.
Soon, I found myself in a very psychedelic headspace. It was much closer to the serotonergic psychedelic headspace than it had ever been to me: I was getting the usual blobs of light to form visuals, something that doesn't happen very often to me. It became very immersive and my thought process became more serotonergic psychedelic-like than usual as well. It also was very immersive. This also happens to me with high doses of ketamine, but remarkably I was able to come back into my body relatively easily. I was quite physically dissociated, but much less than I usually would have been during an experience of this intensity, where I would have been completely unable to vape (or to even think about doing so).
I kept vaping from time to time, and was able to stay in this state for about 50 minutes, it felt subjectively as many hours, as it happens to me in k-holes. I think I could have stayed there for longer if I had kept vaping more, but I felt satisfied with the experience. Also, I was worried I could be having some physical signs of danger without being able to realize so. This was partly because I had felt a strong pressure behind the eyes, like one gets with cannabis, and in the moment some images of eyes with bursting capillaries crossed my mind. My eyes were slightly reddened when I checked afterwards, but nothing worrying.
This has been one of my strongest experiences with ketamine, while at the same time being one of the few experiences where I was able to come back to the body, and able to move it well enough to vape. It also felt much more psychedelic, qualitatively quite different. I used less than a half of the cart, so the ketamine vaped on top of the initial 100mg can't have been more than 25mg. So I got more than usual from a lower than usual amount.
The problem is that it's not clear what made the difference, as I have introduced too many variables into this. Candidates are ROA, CBD, and terpenes.
I have been reading a bit on the pharmacology of CBD and it seems like it could interact with ketamine through AMPA activation and the cannabinoid receptors, which they both modulate (ketamine too, I didn't know that). I also found a pilot study on humans with IV ketamine + 600mg oral CBD. It seems like CBD may intensify what they call "activating effects" of ketamine as observed in the subject by the researchers, which basically seem to be external signs such as weird movements, tension, excitement, and motor hyperactivity. There are also some studies in animal models that found CBD to abolish ketamine-induced hyperlocomotion. This animal model is considered a model of psychotic effects, and antipsychotics are expected to abolish hyperlocomotion, and CBD is supposed to have antipsychotic potential, so it makes sense.
It seems likely to me that CBD could make ketamine more psychedelic (although maybe in a different way) while attenuating other effects. I have heard that cannabis synergizes extremely well with dissociatives, but have never wanted to try it (and I don't think I will), as THC tends to produce confusion and paranoia in me. But I didn't expect CBD to have any effect, much less an effect this strong.
ROA may have played a role as well, as the rise in plasma concentration was probably faster, and so it could be helping to reach higher concentrations with less material. But I'm unconvinced it could cause such a qualitative shift in effects, and I would expect a higher peak concentration to result in the inability to move I usually would have experienced at that intensity. As for terpenes, it doesn't seem too likely to me that they played any role, and the product gives no information whatsoever on what terpenes are present.
I must mention that there's a chance that the product contains some THC. In Spain, it's legal to sell products containing THC as long as it's less than 0.2%, and sometimes products with CBD and terpenes will have some amount of THC under that limit. I estimate I had about 0.2ml of the product, so if there was 0.2% THC or less, it has to have been a minute amount, on the order of magnitude of 50ug. I think it's very unlikely that such low amount of THC would have any effect. Whereas I must have had about 8mg CBD, a normal dose.
I will keep experimenting with this, although I will wait because I want to keep my ketamine experiences a week apart, at a minimum. Next time I will try again a combination of 100mg intranasal ketamine HCl with vaped ketamine, but the juice will be 70% PG, 30% VG without any CBD or terpenes. This is to make sure the difference is not due exclusively to the ROA, and to understand what differences the ROA causes. Later, I will try to vape CBD on top of intranasal ketamine, without vaping any ketamine.
As I said initially, if anyone wants to experiment with this, be very careful. The physiological risks are unknown, and if one starts to use ketamine casually, I can see such a convenient delivery method leading very easily into psychological dependency.
Edit: another potential cause I just found could be some CBD converting into THC, as it seems plausible that the CCELL TH2 could be operating at around 250C.
I have stumbled upon something interesting, but it's not yet clear what.
Recently I've been interested in exploring the possibility of vaping ketamine in e-juice, as I just can't get insufflation right, particularly when dealing with high doses. I can't get it to work much better than rectal, so often I end up needing over 200mg to come close to a hole, and it's still likely to be underwhelming.
The melting point of ketamine HCl is about 252C and the boiling point is about 364C, so it should be stable enough and would probably remain solid when atomized. The main problem would be solubility: it's only about 60mg/mL in propylene glycol (PG), which would make it very difficult to reach a decent dose by vaping PG. There are some reports of "K-pods" being used in SE Asia, particularly Hong Kong, but it's very likely that they only aimed to provide low recreational doses.
Having obtained recently a few 0.5ml CCELL TH2 Evomax carts (to be used with 5-MeO-DMT), I decided to experiment with one of them. I have a tank and mod, but the tank is currently full of DMT.
I don't currently have available PG or VG (I will soon), so I decided to use a 70% PG, 30% VG mix I have. It also has 40mg/ml CBD, and terpenes (no THC).
In a hot water bath, I was able to dissolve over 90mg ketamine HCl in 0.5ml, to my surprise. Maybe ketamine HCl is more soluble in VG, or maybe the CBD made a difference, I don't know. It seemed to stay dissolved after cooling down.
Testing a few long draws, held for 20 seconds, I reached in the span of about 20 minutes a light state of dissociation, equivalent to maybe 25mg ketamine (I'm not too experienced with low doses, have only tried 25mg once). This was surprising, because I had much less than 1/4 of the cart, it couldn't have been more than 1/8.
I decided to try a higher dose, but I was wary of attempting to go for higher dosages vaping only. So I decided to insufflate 100mg ketamine (divided in 4 bumps, taken in two rounds about 10 minutes apart) to provide a strong base, and see if I could reach a strong experience by adding vaped ketamine. Given how poorly insufflated ketamine works for me, such a dose by itself would be severely disabling to me, but not particularly psychdedelic nor close to the hole.
About 10 minutes after my second insufflated dose, I started vaping. I could soon feel the come-up accelerate a lot. I kept vaping, maybe I took 8 5-second pulls, holding about 20 seconds.
Soon, I found myself in a very psychedelic headspace. It was much closer to the serotonergic psychedelic headspace than it had ever been to me: I was getting the usual blobs of light to form visuals, something that doesn't happen very often to me. It became very immersive and my thought process became more serotonergic psychedelic-like than usual as well. It also was very immersive. This also happens to me with high doses of ketamine, but remarkably I was able to come back into my body relatively easily. I was quite physically dissociated, but much less than I usually would have been during an experience of this intensity, where I would have been completely unable to vape (or to even think about doing so).
I kept vaping from time to time, and was able to stay in this state for about 50 minutes, it felt subjectively as many hours, as it happens to me in k-holes. I think I could have stayed there for longer if I had kept vaping more, but I felt satisfied with the experience. Also, I was worried I could be having some physical signs of danger without being able to realize so. This was partly because I had felt a strong pressure behind the eyes, like one gets with cannabis, and in the moment some images of eyes with bursting capillaries crossed my mind. My eyes were slightly reddened when I checked afterwards, but nothing worrying.
This has been one of my strongest experiences with ketamine, while at the same time being one of the few experiences where I was able to come back to the body, and able to move it well enough to vape. It also felt much more psychedelic, qualitatively quite different. I used less than a half of the cart, so the ketamine vaped on top of the initial 100mg can't have been more than 25mg. So I got more than usual from a lower than usual amount.
The problem is that it's not clear what made the difference, as I have introduced too many variables into this. Candidates are ROA, CBD, and terpenes.
I have been reading a bit on the pharmacology of CBD and it seems like it could interact with ketamine through AMPA activation and the cannabinoid receptors, which they both modulate (ketamine too, I didn't know that). I also found a pilot study on humans with IV ketamine + 600mg oral CBD. It seems like CBD may intensify what they call "activating effects" of ketamine as observed in the subject by the researchers, which basically seem to be external signs such as weird movements, tension, excitement, and motor hyperactivity. There are also some studies in animal models that found CBD to abolish ketamine-induced hyperlocomotion. This animal model is considered a model of psychotic effects, and antipsychotics are expected to abolish hyperlocomotion, and CBD is supposed to have antipsychotic potential, so it makes sense.
It seems likely to me that CBD could make ketamine more psychedelic (although maybe in a different way) while attenuating other effects. I have heard that cannabis synergizes extremely well with dissociatives, but have never wanted to try it (and I don't think I will), as THC tends to produce confusion and paranoia in me. But I didn't expect CBD to have any effect, much less an effect this strong.
ROA may have played a role as well, as the rise in plasma concentration was probably faster, and so it could be helping to reach higher concentrations with less material. But I'm unconvinced it could cause such a qualitative shift in effects, and I would expect a higher peak concentration to result in the inability to move I usually would have experienced at that intensity. As for terpenes, it doesn't seem too likely to me that they played any role, and the product gives no information whatsoever on what terpenes are present.
I must mention that there's a chance that the product contains some THC. In Spain, it's legal to sell products containing THC as long as it's less than 0.2%, and sometimes products with CBD and terpenes will have some amount of THC under that limit. I estimate I had about 0.2ml of the product, so if there was 0.2% THC or less, it has to have been a minute amount, on the order of magnitude of 50ug. I think it's very unlikely that such low amount of THC would have any effect. Whereas I must have had about 8mg CBD, a normal dose.
I will keep experimenting with this, although I will wait because I want to keep my ketamine experiences a week apart, at a minimum. Next time I will try again a combination of 100mg intranasal ketamine HCl with vaped ketamine, but the juice will be 70% PG, 30% VG without any CBD or terpenes. This is to make sure the difference is not due exclusively to the ROA, and to understand what differences the ROA causes. Later, I will try to vape CBD on top of intranasal ketamine, without vaping any ketamine.
As I said initially, if anyone wants to experiment with this, be very careful. The physiological risks are unknown, and if one starts to use ketamine casually, I can see such a convenient delivery method leading very easily into psychological dependency.
Edit: another potential cause I just found could be some CBD converting into THC, as it seems plausible that the CCELL TH2 could be operating at around 250C.
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