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Lazy alkaloid salting combos (CISLO)

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I just wanted to add Loveall,

I'm not sure exactly how soluble harmala tartrate is in PG/VG, it appears mostly soluble I went with the ratio's from the Hielo Tek.

.06ml VG
.20ml PG
.10mg Harmala Tartrate Crystals

Unsure if these are the right ratios I don't vape.

Majority was soluble I could have tried heating it, waiting longer, mixing it better or change the ratios but a few tiny crystals didn't dissolve.

Will look into lactic and malic next.

Edit: missed the heat bath line in the Hielo tek, it would likely be fully soluble then.
 

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_Trip_ said:
I just wanted to add Loveall,

I'm not sure exactly how soluble harmala tartrate is in PG/VG, it appears mostly soluble I went with the ratio's from the Hielo Tek.

.06ml VG
.20ml PG
.10mg Harmala Tartrate Crystals

Unsure if these are the right ratios I don't vape.

Majority was soluble I could have tried heating it, waiting longer, mixing it better or change the ratios but a few tiny crystals didn't dissolve.

Will look into lactic and malic next.

Edit: missed the heat bath line in the Hielo tek, it would likely be fully soluble then.
Click to expand...

Those ratios are good. Very interesting result! If you can, keep an eye on the e-juice over time, sometimes it takes a few days to xtalize if not soluble. Like a very slow manske in PG.

These are xtals from dissolving EA salted precipitate in water and evaporating, right?

Looks like blood of the gods lol.
 
I broke the number one rule of kitchen chemistry and threw it away.

Do you want me to make up more?

Yeah EA salted, caught with a filter then dried and had the filter washed with water then evaporated.
Harmala tartrate embeds itself in the filter, its not sticky bit it embeds itself. probably not an issue in larger amounts but requires it to be washed in H2O.
 
Here is a test from a harmala salt powder candidate made from rue calcium carbonate paste extracted with EA, salted with tartaric, and dissolved in PG with a warm water bath (1:2 mass ratio for harmala salt candidate to PG). Similar to _Trip_'s result, but this harmala salt could also contain harmalol, results pending.

So far the solution has remained clear (not cloudy) for about an hour at room temp. Hoping it remains this way.

Edit: one can see some of the undissolved powder on the glass wall
 

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When you say congeals do you mean thickens to a blob or it is recrystalising?
If it is just forming a blob, then could it still work in a vape and liquidfy when heated?
 
_Trip_ said:
When you say congeals do you mean thickens to a blob or it is recrystalising?
If it is just forming a blob, then could it still work in a vape and liquidfy when heated?
Click to expand...

See image. This started as the red liquid above in post #25. I do not think it will work when heater as the flow into the atomizer would be slow with high risk of burnt cotton.
 

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I see what you are saying.

I may retest this Loveall, just to be sure as my tartrate is from EA pulls to citrate salting and then sodium carb basing then converted from FB back to tartrate. I doubt there be a difference but there may be a difference between your results straight from seed and mine from FB (as in a slight difference in harmala alkaloid spectrum).

Harmala will form with malic acid for harmala malate but not as efficiently as tartaric. It forms a crystalized gum, I do want to retest this though as I had a few abnormalities and should have dissolved the malic in EA first before mixing it with the harmala loaded EA. It did not cloud very well, which lead me to stirring it, passively waiting may have rendered crystals. I may try to re-x the malate in H20.
 
As per previous ratios

40mg harmala malate
.80ml PG
.24ml VG


Harmala malate took some convincing to dissolve in the hot water bath had to work it with a utensil but it eventually dissolved in the PG/VG it is sitting in a glass dish will see if it congeals or drops out as a crystal over the next 12 hours.
 

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_Trip_ said:
As per previous ratios

40mg harmala malate
.80ml PG
.24ml VG


Harmala malate took some convincing to dissolve in the hot water bath had to work it with a utensil but it eventually dissolved in the PG/VG it is sitting in a glass dish will see if it congeals or drops out as a crystal over the next 12 hours.
Click to expand...

So sorry I didn't notice this before (in your original post), but I think we have a factor of ~10x different.

I use 400mg of harmalas malate in 800mg of PG.

Will still be interesting to see what happens at this dilution.
 
I see, I feel like tartaric would have worked fine at that dilution then.

Malate worked fine at that dilution but obviously this is not ideal as it needs to hold more nothing dropped out or congealed over 12 hours.

So when using DMT citrate you are mixing 400mg to .80ml PG .24ml VG?

Therefore we are just looking for the most polar harmala salt. Harmala tartarte still may work we may just need to tweak ratios. What I'm getting at is perhaps the tartrate may not have congealed at lower ratios.

If you are going to be mixing ratios of DMT citrate and harmala (insert salt name) then we only want 1/3rd to 1/2 the harmala to DMT. A 1:1 ratio will be a very hard hit. I always found 1:2 or 1:3 more than sufficient when mixing the two together in FB form with the genie.

Therefore, maybe instead of 400mg to .80ml to .24ml we should be aiming closer for 1/3 to half that by harmala weight? (obviously we will have to factor in salt forms weight too).

I'm thinking (and tartaric may not be a dead end) 133mg-200mg harmala to .80ml PG and .24ml PG.

The problem here however is that those ratios although sufficient for a extended blast off, it will not create an ayahusca like experience, for that you'd need two e-vapes or experiment with lowering the DMT ratios.

Your thoughts?
 
Lactic acid is turning out to be a bit of an enigma, I will need to read up on its chemical properties more.

Heated ethanol may be the best bet when forming Harmala Lactate. However, it may just stay dissolved.

I may have had limited success with EA/ Ethanol and Acetone/ Ethanol in forming harmala lactate. But the reactions aren't as fast as malic or tartaric, very limited clouding (and judging by the solvent color the reaction is more limited). There is also a possibility what is crashing may just be lactic acid. I think the solubility is low with EA and acetone.

I still think tartaric deserves more attention, it was the fastest reaction and left the EA clear. Malic looks promising too. Maybe we should look to dial in the ratios.


Edit: 210mg of harmala malate was dissolved in a heat bath with .8ml PG and .24ml VG. Over 4-6hours this crystalised to a degree, it stayed in oily but crystals dropped out (however it is still very oily). I will dilute this with an extra .275ml of PG, this should give close to 1/3rd the strength of harmala malate to DMT citrate if one was to mix. So if this was used for vaping it could be mixed at a 1:1 ratio and form a very acceptable vape solution each 30mg of DMT FB there would be just over 10mg of Harmala FB. If it works.
 
Well worst case moving forward with experiments we seem to have a candidate for harmala in PG. The harmala malate stayed stable in the PG. Must be close to 16hours+ now.

Therefor 140mg of harmala malate should be stable in PG if one uses 1.14ml of PG. As PG is believed to be more soluble at this stage. Using PG only (no VG) 160mg of harmala malate may be possilbe and stable.

If this mixes well with DMT/PG, 140mg Harmala malate to 400mg DMT citrate in 2.24ml of PG should be suffice for e-vape. The harmala to DMT ratios should be more than acceptable for the average pyschonaut. This by weight is roughly 1:3. I would theorize adjusting the DMT lower could give a more ayahuasca like experience.

More tests we be needed.
 
Great work, Trip and Loveall!

One more thing that to be taken into consideration when proceeding with your plan is that mixing harmala malate with DMT citrate may cause harmala citrate to precipitate. So that's at least one further stability test that'll need to be done.
 
This is exactly my worry, but I'm hoping this doesn't happen. Otherwise DMT malate?

Edit: DMT Malate started to form nicely in EA (don't know if this will work).

Will try both DMT citrate and DMT malate with harmala malate.

One step closer.
 
So Harmala lactate is possible, very nice crystals similar to the tartaric, but not as easy to work with.
Could be a candidate but needs some experimenting at this point I'd suggest harmala dissolved in EA or acetone and then lactic acid dissolved in ethanol before mixing the two for precipitation. I attached photos. Harmala lactate is PG and water soluble.

I have harmala malate and DMT citrate mixed in a PG mix (it contains a tiny amount of VG) 1:3 ratio Harmala to DMT. So far so good. Will report after 12 hours.
 

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A maybe slightly daft idea just struck me - another option for salt formation would be 4-hydroxybutanoate. At least at vaping concentrations it wouldn't be a noticeably psychoactive dose, but unfortunately it does break the 'no watched chemicals' rule in most jurisdictions. [Will I have to ban myself for this? :p]

It would likely be tricky to work with due to the easy formation of the lactone under acidic conditions, however. All the same, it still seems worth including in the overall line of thinking. One might still occasionally find products like label remover which include an appreciable level of this lactone as a solvent.
 
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