LS/Aldehydes ?

[AlbertKLloyd]

Alkaloid extracts should not be referred to as LSA, unless one has purified LSA and eliminated all other alkaloids found in the seeds etc. Shulgin and many others who researched this stated they did not think that LSA was the active alkaloid in these seeds, but that other alkaloids were. LSA is the majority alkaloid, but there are others present that are much more likely candidates for psychedelic effects.

Who has been able to obtain pure LSA from a chemical supply house and taken it?

The only accounts I know of using pure LSA are not psychedelic accounts.

I feel as if the conjecture surrounding LSA is incredibly misleading.

Do we have data showing that active extracts or seeds are pure LSA and nothing else?
Can someone provide links to the analysis data or post it?

 

[benzyme]

i don't mess with seeds, but i did post mass spectra of claviceps extract, run reverse phase through C18 column; too lazy to search for it, so yeah.
i'm sure there are immuno-linked assays which show lsa activity too.

pure lsa could mean a racemic mixture; there are studies which mention
separation of the epimers using gamma cyclodextrin in the extraction solution, eluted
through a cation exchange column. fairly straightforward


P.S. - this aldehyde business is bunk, the adduct doesn't form by the addition of essential oil and related tom foolery. even extraction of LSH from fresh HBWR and c. paspali isn't a practical approach, apparently dissociation of the acetaldehyde is enzyme-catalyzed above 24 C

 

[flickedbic]

P.S. - this aldehyde business is bunk, the adduct doesn't form by the addition of essential oil

Adducts may not be forming thru aldehyde combinations; but something surely happens with the addition of the essential oils/herbs that drastically change the effects.

I'm sure we can all agree that the effects of doubling potency and increased OEV with the cinnamon combination, while bringing the trip on within 20 minutes (peaking at ~30 minutes) are significant for an entheogen that usually takes hours to reach full effects.

If this is enzyme inhibition or something else I don't know... pretty impressive speed of effect for concurrent dosing (if no actual physical changes are made to the goodies). I'm still planning on pre-dosing the Cinnamon(or its essential oil high in Cinnemaldehyde) to see if that gives the same changes in effect as the agitation-based combination.

Just to reinforce the other posts in this thread, all I know is:

I love Cinnamon CWE
The acetaldehyde combos are lovely as well . I feel they are generally much improved over straight CWE.

Blessings.

 

[benzyme]

The acetaldehyde combos are lovely as well

see, that's the thing...more than likely, you don't experience any aldehyde-derivatives, because it's so susceptible to degradation.

 

[endlessness]

What about the essential oil/acetaldehyde-containg substances being good solvents for the lysergic acid and derivatives and hence why its a stronger trip ?

What about something else in the essential oil or these substances used, temporarily inactivating the enzymes that dissociate acetaldehyde?

(just questioning out loud here, I never tried these "LSA-containing combos", just HBWR seeds..)

Regarding what AlbertKLoyd said, here's a quote from TIHKAL:

LA-111, ergine, d-lysergamide. This is an active compound and has been established as a major component in morning glory seeds. It was assayed for human activity, by Albert Hofmann in self-trials back in 1947, well before this was known to be a natural compound. An i.m. administration of a 500 microgram dose led to a tired, dreamy state with an inability to maintain clear thoughts. After a short period of sleep, the effects were gone and normal baseline was recovered within five hours. Other observers have confirmed this clouding of consciousness leading to sleep. The epimer, inverted at C-8, is isoergine or d-isolysergamide, and is also a component of morning glory seeds. Hofmann tried a 2 milligram dose of this amide, and as with ergine, he experienced nothing but tiredness, apathy, and a feeling of emptiness. Both compounds are probably correctly dismissed as not being a contributor to the action of these seeds.

Gingko in another thread asked:

Hofmann states pretty much straight-forward that LSA isn't visual. Thanks a lot for pointing it out endlessness. However, the compound ergometrine (ergonovine) - which is found in about 8% of the total alkaloids in A. nervosa (and likely also the other species) - is known to have LSD like action at 2 milligrams (see TiHKAL).

So perhaps ergometrine is the real psychedelic compound in these seeds? And what if the proposed LSH conversion doesn't form LSH, but really only extracts more of the ergometrine and less of the ergine (LSA)?

Any feedback on that? What other compounds can be active in these seeds?

 

[benzyme]

never actually entertained the thought of ergometrine exerting any central activity, I honestly don't know.
What I do know is it is much more vasoconstrictive than ergine, and has been traditionally been used in medical applications involving the uterus.

 

[remediosvaro]

5 seeds were taken and a mind blowing experience was received. they were called indian strain. me and two others all felt extreme beautiful effects, and horrible hangovers and cramps. 2 seeds of a different strain were taken, and just made me not want to move. and a hangover. the 5 seeds gave me a very veryyy euphoric come up, followed by swimming in memories i didnt know i kept.

i really think it has to do with the seeds you take. once was great, with side effects. second time it was just side effects. i wouldnt diss lsa to hastily though, just gotta look out for the good seeds.

im guessing and unstable molecule like lsh or lsc will just convert back to lsa as soon as you consume. that is even if the lsa becomes lsh/lsc. i would guess you would need something more than just mixing lsa/aldehyde.

 

[aliendreamtime]

What about the origins of this myth?

I'm not sure where it truly came from, but I read an excerpt in, I believe, Sacred Mushrooms of the Goddess by Carl Ruck.

In it...someone (hopefully someone can chime in here) I forget his name, believed that one could adduct aldehyde (maybe it was a methyl group) to ergometrine under heat and in the presence of wood ash (potash?). I cant remember the exact recipe and I dont have the book but I can get it in a few days. Maybe I'll transcribe it. Anyways, I believe this is where this myth originated, and it would be nice to get it back on track.

I believe his source of ergomentrine was a pharmaceuticul used for cluster headaches and uterine contraction. Its been a while but I'll double check soon.

Oh and it produced psychedelic effects more intense than the ergometrine alone.

Edit: This is what I could get off of Google books. I have the book just not with me.

"The first stage of this reaction, the partial hydrolysis of ergotamine
and its chemical cousins to ergine, can be brought about by fairly mild basic
conditions, such as a slurry of wood ash in water might provide. Only in much ..."

Guess it was ergotamine.

 

[aliendreamtime]

Never mind, it was the partial hydrolysis of ergotamine to ergine, the full hydrolysis of which would produce Lysergic Acid.

 

[AlbertKLloyd]

I'm sure we can all agree that the effects of doubling potency and increased OEV with the cinnamon combination, while bringing the trip on within 20 minutes (peaking at ~30 minutes) are significant for an entheogen that usually takes hours to reach full effects.

I can't agree to this without some evidence of it.
CWE prep of MG seeds can very active in under 30 minutes and very psychedelic, though I doubt strongly that LSA is the active alkaloid, it is just the predominant one...
I would love to see a blind study measuring reported response using a combination of something like cinnamon, peppermint etc and comparing it to non combined extracts and of course employing many people.