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lsd?

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Darkbb said:
Ron so what you said about lsd's by products that cause the effects got me thinkin what would happen if it was possible to aquire the by-products without injesting LSD and then administering that do you think that it could have any affects
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I was thinking the same thing.

But if the break down products are poorly lipid soluble (LSD is fantastically lipid soluble) then taking them orally or injecting them might do nothing at all. You may have to inject them directly into the brain for them to be effective.

LSD passes the blood brain barrier really easily because of its fantastic lipid solubility. Maybe its breakdown products can't and so they need LSD to pass into the brain prior to them forming.

Another thing, if they are lipid soluble but destroyed in the digestive system, then they might work by injection.

If they are active orally that would be fantastic, but I doubt it. If they were active orally it seems like someone would have already tested that.
 
VisualDistortion said:
I think the dosage amounts you would be dealing with if your dealing with the by products woud be impossibly small.
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Yes, they would be very small for sure. It forms more than 1 break down product.

90-99% of the LSD ingested within a few hours becomes break down products or byproducts. One product that forms in humans after ingesting LSD is 2-oxo-3-hydroxy LSD (O-H-LSD). I wonder if that's active? Another that forms is lysergic acid ethylamide. Others include iso-LSD, nor-LSD, lysergic acid ethyl-2-hydroxyethylamide (LEO), 14-hydroxy-LSD, 13-hydroxy-LSD and isonor-LSD.
 
^^Many of the metabolites of lsd are not active. There could be some that are I don't know. Iso-lsd is inactive for example. Hydroxylated metabolites may be less lipid soluble and thus cross the blood brain barrier slower and they could in theory be more potent at the same receptors as lsd I really don't know. This happens in the case of THC and one of its main liver metabolites 11-hydroxy-THC. It appears to be more psychoactive but with a slower onset of action. The higher activity could be explained by receptor binding activity and slower onset of action could be explain by a weakened ability to cross the blood brain barrier.

Which may also happen with LSD but I don't know of any direct evidence for it.

Forensic chemists have done lots of this research into drug metabolites. Its in their advantage to be able to detect not just LSD but anything that it breaks down into to be able to prove that someone has used the substance. This is a normal part of forensic chemistry.

The only real way to know is to compare their pharmacokinetic profiles using different forms of administration and receptor binding activity and specificity would also help. Also post mortem analysis of brain tissue helps say what was going on.

It makes a lot of sense to me. I’m willing to bet that it’s NOT LSD but it’s break down compounds that make you trip. Considering the fact that most of the LSD is gone before you even reach the peak effects, seems to indicate that it’s the break down products and not the LSD itself that are effective in making you trip.
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Just because lsd disappears below an analytical methods level of detection does not mean it is not there. Remember we are diluting roughly a hundred micrograms of a substance into many many liters of human fluid and then adding all the fats and tissue into the equation makes it no small task. But it is do able and has been done. It also depends on what kind of tissue one is analyzing. Blood you can just take and take and take and it most likely will be undetectable in the blood as LSD very quickly. But the substance can still hang out in brain tissue for a while. One can't exactly slice up human brain tissue to see if LSD is in their brain when they are tripping. Theoretically you could but its of course unethical.


LSD does not break down into strychnine. But could it break down under storage conditions into a substance that has a strychnine like effect? Maybe but what is a strychnine like effect? Muscle convulsions?

Erowid LSD (Acid) Vault : Myth about Strychnine in LSD

Evidence against the myth that LSD is occasionally laced with strychnine.
www.erowid.org

This effect is most likely a result of impurities present in the LSD from the manufacturing process, other ergot alkaloids. Maybe one of them is breaking down and becomes more toxic or more potent. Either way I doubt pure LSD breaks down into something that can lead to such an effect as far as I know LSD's main breakdown product is iso-lsd and it doesn't do anything.

www.clinchem.org

Effective GC-MS procedure for detecting iso-LSD in urine after base-catalyzed conversion to LSD

Abstract. A sensitive method is described to detect isolysergic acid diethylamide (iso-LSD) in urine. The compound was extracted from urine and converted t
www.clinchem.org www.clinchem.org

"Iso-LSD is not psychoactive (18), but like LSD, the compound is classified as a schedule I drug under the Controlled Substances Act of 1970. Because LSD is prepared from ergot alkaloids with isomeric configuration at C-8 position, both LSD and iso-LSD are present in most illicit preparations. To control the use of LSD and iso-LSD, establishing a procedure to detect and quantify these compounds in urine is prudent. In this report, we describe a method that can be used routinely to detect the iso-LSD in large numbers of urine specimens."

 
burnt said:
^^Many of the metabolites of lsd are not active.
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That’s not necessarily so. They may not be active because they can't cross the blood brain barrier on their own. But could be very active if injected directly into the brain. I don't believe any of them were ever injected directly into the human brain to test for activity within the human brain. Any breakdown or byproducts that cannot pass the blood brain barrier that form within the brain may be active in the brain because they don't need to pass the blood brain barrier.

Very little tests have been done on what forms within in the human brain. Most of these tests are based on urine analysis, not by examining alkaloids that have formed in the human brain that have bound to neurotransmitter sites in the brain.
 
Very little tests have been done on what forms within in the human brain. Most of these tests are based on urine analysis, not by examining alkaloids that have formed in the human brain that have bound to neurotransmitter sites in the brain.
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True but also maybe not many studies have been done looking for LSD specifically in brain tissue either. Maybe it has I dunno?

Receptor binding studies could also at least give an idea of what is more potent etc. But yea to answer that question may require extensive literature review to see if its been done. SAR relationships etc.
 
If LSD forms a compound in the brain that is water soluble, it would not likely be effective if ingested orally or injected (unless injected into the brain), because it wouldn't pass the blood brain barrier. Researchers would think it’s inactive because they don’t normally inject drugs into human brain tissue to test for activity. If it formed inside the brain, it doesn’t need to enter the brain. LSD could simply serve as a way of passing it through to the brain, where it then forms and becomes active.

The effect of LSD peak after LSD is already nearly gone from your body. I don’t think LSD causes the experience. It doesn’t sound right to me. With psychedelics like DMT, it’s the DMT that is obviously causing the effects because it peaks when brain levels are at their peak and diminishes as the brain levels of DMT diminish. There’s a direct correlation. I believe the same is true for most psychedelics, but NOT LSD. That’s why I don’t think LSD is active, and that it must be a byproduct or break down product of LSD that’s doing all the magic.

Or it could be rapid withdrawal effects of LSD that are doing the magic. Hmmm.
 
In other words, LSD could simply be a prodrug of an unknown metabolite that forms in the brain after LSD enters it. There are many prodrugs that work on this very same idea. It is reasonable that LSD could be a type of prodrug.
 
LSD does bind to receptors in our brain that's been proven. Seriously check out what structure activity relationships have been done on LSD it could help answer this question. I simply don't feel like looking through the literature but I do agree with you in theory what you are saying is possible and it does happen with certain compounds. Heroin turns into morphine in the brain and thus becomes activated in a sense.

Most studies look at urine or blood like we said and thats not a good way to say whether or not LSD is hanging out in the brain or not or whether or not one of its metabolites are binding to receptors in our brain. Those studies are doable and may have been done.
 
69ron said:
In other words, LSD could simply be a prodrug of an unknown metabolite that forms in the brain after LSD enters it. There are many prodrugs that work on this very same idea. It is reasonable that LSD could be a type of prodrug.
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Even Hoffman thinks that LSD is a prodrug of some sort because it is eliminated from the body so fast. He talked about it in; LSD: My Problem Chilc
 
VisualDistortion said:
69ron said:
In other words, LSD could simply be a prodrug of an unknown metabolite that forms in the brain after LSD enters it. There are many prodrugs that work on this very same idea. It is reasonable that LSD could be a type of prodrug.
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Even Hoffman thinks that LSD is a prodrug of some sort because it is eliminated from the body so fast. He talked about it in; LSD: My Problem Chilc
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Everything points in the direction of it being a prodrug.

When i take LSD, it always takes 1 hour before the psychedelic effects start. It doesn´t matter whether i have an empty stomach or not, it doesn´t matter whether i swallow it or put it under my tongue, it´s always 1 hour, give or take a few minutes.

If it would affect the brain directly you would expect it to hit faster, and you would expect different methods of ingesting under different circumstances to lead to a greater variation.

I think that it enters the bloodstream pretty fast, but that metabolising it into the real active compound(s) always takes exactly X minutes.
 
In all the hundred's of times i took acid, it always took around one hour. I never had it working within even 45 minutes.
Physical sensations start almost immediately, but for me the psychedelic effects always take no more and no less than an hour to start.
I think this is true for the majority of people.
 
azrael said:
Yeah, I was lumping physical effects in with 'come up' but I see what you're getting at.
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Wich makes it all the more plausible that it indeed IS a prodrug. How can something have physical effects, almost from the moment that you take it, while it takes a full hour for the colours and lightshow to begin?
 
My employer has been threatening the workforce with random drug testing for a couple of years now. So far nothing has come of it except sending round a document detailing what they would test for. One of the categories they list is "popular" hallucinogens although they aren't specific on what the popular hallucinogens are.

Its claimed in the document that they can use gas chromotography to detect hallucinogens. I'm not sure how effective this is.

W
 
I experience a very pleasurable warming sensation and pooling of energy about 25 minutes in. Full psychadelia by 45. Always a faster peaker than anyone else I ever voyage with. I have a reasonably fast metabolism and am unfortunately hardheaded with almost every other psychadelic.

This theory of lsd being a prodrug has a lot of credibility, imo.
 
Whenever LSD is consumed, SWIM notices the effects immediately. Pretty much, as soon as it touches his tongue he knows that he ate something that's gonna make him feel a little funny. Visuals start at about the 45 min to 60 min mark. The idea of LSD as a prodrug really excites me and I wish that more research was being done to verify this.
Does anyone have any thoughts on as to why the trip itself is 'wavy'? With upswings and downswings?
 
For Swim usually it took 30-40 min to even start feeling any changes, but the last 2-3 experiences were unusually fast, deep and powerful.

She was peaking in less than 20 min. The peak lasted at least 2 hours. Judging by the trip content, undoubtedly it was the acid. Could it be some kind of sensitization to the drug?
 
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