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maidenii tips?

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XDX5

Rising Star
Hello Nexians,

I do not post here too often, as I tend to spend more time reading through all the awesome information this beautiful community brings together. Thank you!

I have a ~5yr old Acacia maidenii tree that I started from seed. its truly a beautiful tree, cant wait until it flowers! (when does that happen, btw?) its in a pot, not terribly huge, but it is a solid shrub for sure.
this year, one of the main branches has died back over the last season or two. i think the dieback had stopped spreading, but I just cut the branch off a couple weeks ago, in hopes it might help. i hope it doesnt have some sort of fungus- i fear Armillaria and Verticilium run rampant in my garden, not sure if maidens are susceptible to these infections- but the rest of the plant appears healthier than ever, so for now, no worries. when i went to put the branch in storage, i noticed i have a decent bit of phyllodes saved over the years as well. I put it all on a scale, ~100g, so i think it might be time to get a bit more intimate with this maiden...

plant meterial:
~100g, 3:7 bark/wood: phyllodes, freshly dried to 3yrs old
harvest season: scattered, mostly winter-spring
plant age: ~5yrs

other info:
~50% of phyllodes sat under the tree for a season and have been browned in the sun, the other half were dried indoors in the dark and have retained some green color. many phyllodes, especially the small young new growth, drop at the real start of winter, after some serious rains, with the advent of hard frost or snow. but then theres also quite a few larger older mature phyllodes that remain until mid-spring/early summer, then drop with the surge of new growth. I have collected them all together mixed. i am unsure if these details matter, or if anyone even knows yet, but i figured id mention them.

looking for extraction tek suggestions. especially specific to maidenii, anyone with experience or special tips for working with this plant? I have read there may be 5meo in the wood, is this just myth? any suggestions how to keep that in the final product? Avoid hydroxides is one thing i read, is this the trick?

the method for A. confusa that i am very comfortable with is a bit of a hybrid tek i've developed over the years, a mash-up mostly influenced from the BLAB and Q21Q21, and I thought one other, but nothing else looks right. its essentially an A/B, using vinegar & KOH, pull with limo, vinegar backsalt, dry, base with CaOH, pull with acetone, evap. then separate by freeze precip using hexane. takes a bit of time and reagents cost a bit more, but its negligible in the long run, and feel much safer- skin doesnt melt if things spill, and the house smells like tangerine dreams for a week!

as you may notice, there is liberal use of hydroxides. sodium compounds are just not preferential and are avoided whenever possible.

could this method work successfully for a maidenii extraction? would using this method as posted result in the loss of any possible 5meo in the final product? could this same method be used, except at both steps replace the KOH and CaOH with Na2CO3? are there other bases that could be substituted instead?

any suggestions or advice would truly be appreciated, thanks!
 
The tree is ~115-120cm tall, with several prominent branching shoots, and base trunk diameter just shy of 3cm. It would have maybe grown taller, but i think i've cold-stunted it. on year 2 or 3, I potted it up into a huge fake half wine barrel, and it shot straight upwards basically a whole meter! i also began testing its cold tolerance, and well i took it a bit too far, i let it dip down to -5 or -6C, maybe even a bit lower, causing the main growth shoot to die back. now ill let it get to 0C, then watch for the newest growth to begin to wilt & die back. at which point, i bring it indoors and leave it at my backdoor/laundry room area with no lights, no water, & a cold draft. i basically treat it like i do my cacti, and if its too warm in the winter, it behaves like cacti do as well, and sends out pale etiolated new growth. ive done nothing as far as soil or fertilizers. i found the pot half full with dirt already, plus some buried dishes, on my old neighbors back porch after they moved away. i'm pretty sure they were growing cannabis, and thats where the dirt in the pot came from. mostly coco & peat with some perlite, probably fairly leached.
im thinking i might skip the cold tolerance tests this year to limit damages, and see how much that effects rates of growth next spring/summer.
 

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Hi there,

A couple of my own observations which relate to your questions;
An acacia in a pot quickly grows to a certain miniature size, then stops, or slows right down. Limited by root space/depth.
All four species I have grown have flowered in their second or third year. One produced seed in its second year.
Brown phyllodes collected off the ground underneath the plant, which had been there for months or maybe a year, contained no alkaloids.
Brown phyllodes collected off a tree whose branch had been snapped sometime in the past, and left dangling (unsure of age), contained the usual alkaloids.

I have no madeinii experience sorry.
 
awesome, thanks for your input!

i might get around to some experiments this next week. im going to read around some more and try to dig up some more info if i can.

one of my biggest goals over the next year is to find a forever-home to put all my plants in the ground. but for those who are limited by space, climate, or lifestyle, this is probably a decent representation of what one could grow in a pot. there are definitely more experienced gardeners out there, and better climates for these to grow.
it has bushed out quite a bit, i might could expect 100g of phyllode and twig material per year now. with maidenii, this may or may not yield much, if anything. but get growing species like acuminata and simplex, even a single (potted) tree after just a few years could provide enough materials, for sustainable personal use. grow a few, just to be sure... and share!😁
 
@XDX5 Thanks for the infos and photos! I thought it would be taller.
But if it died down a bit one time that might be the reason.
Its a nice little tree and looks quite healthy to me. Which fertilizer did you use?
How long did it take till the phyllodes regrow?
 
my pleasure!
if the main growth tip hadnt died back a couple years ago, id expect it to be probably twice as big. but it is a good size for me, can still move it indoors if needed. if it gets much bigger, i will have to leave it outside, hope for the best, & take notes on cold tolerance.
phyllodes started showing just on the 3rd or 4th "leaf". took mine about a year to get established, only grew maybe 20cm. 2nd year it shot upwards like a meter. third year it branched, likely in part due to dieback. after that slow first year getting established, its all phyllodes, except when its wet out, and only forms true leaves at the newest growth tips, and at the base of the trunk.
and ive used no fertilizers, except pretty sure i did half-strength organic bud/bloom enhancer, once a year, for the past 2-3 years. I did not give it nitrogen, because Acacias should have Rhizobia bacteria to fix nitrogen. and i have killed other legumes from sudden nitrogen spikes, id rather not risk the maiden. fert suggestions would be appreciated, especially to try to coax it into bloom!
 
I meant how long did it take the phyllodes to regrow after you harvested them?
Or did you cut of whole branches?

I am not sure about the thing with the Rhizobia bacteria. If you never used soil from nature there might be no Rhizobia bacteria and supporting Mycorrhiza funghi.

But one can buy Rhizobia and add it to the soil. I think Herbalistics did this to be able to grow Acacia phlebophylla in pot from seed.

 
oh, gotcha!
the phyllodes drop seasonally for me, not sure if thats normal, i thought they were supposed to be evergreen... but even pines and other evergreens will drop their needles every couple years so i guess it makes sense that acacias would cycle through their phyllodes as well.
but so i have only harvested phyllodes as they were on their way out, or after they have dropped. I wonder how much phyllode age and maturity affects potency? not how long have they been sitting around drying, either in the sun or in the cupboard- how long the phyllodes were growing on the plant for, and how much longer should they have been growing had they not been harvested? i imagine potency plotted over age would produce a bell curve, with young phyllodes not mature enough, peak phyllodes peak potency, and in aging phyllodes potency diminishes.

idk if theres Rhizobia in the pot or not, i never added any. but i did take a lil soil from the maiden and added it to my confusa and simplex seedlings. then i thought about the possible fungi that killed the branch... i should just go buy some, but im too broke for all that. alas, the strong will survive.

any thoughts about using soda carb as the original base to add to the mixture? will this work to push the alks out into a solvent? i thought i remember reading somewhere that soda carb wont work in all situations, but i dont remember where or why. i think ive tried to use it with confusa when i ran out of stronger bases, and it did not go well...
 
I see. ok thanks! I think they drop when its getting to cold or to dry.
Not sure about how age of phyllodes change the potency. I think more important might be the time of the year and if it is flowring. The Acacia analysis thread should have more info on this.

Regarding the extraction I have no experience with phyllodes so far.

Did yo check this thread? A/B extraction on Acacia phyllodes - FAQ - All your basic questions and answers - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

How is your Simplex growing. Is it a fast grower for you?
 
I just stumbled again over this phyllode tec which is exactly what you were searching for. Thought it would be a good idea to post it here:

the Phyllode Tek Experiment 3

plant material..a friend and i observed an interesting looking small population of Acacia maidenii in NSW..this population shares some characteristics with A. obtusifolia in that it's pods are less coiled than typical maidenii (though not as 'straight' as obtusifolia, which typically has mildly convex pods), but it's phyllodes are not as thick and leathery as obtusifolia, nor blunt (as in the meaning of obtusifolia)..
it has been previously seen flowering in spring (September)

recently, i witnessed an experiment in which the leaf and twig were extracted as follows:

..500grams of A. maidenii phyllode and small twig were crumbled and broken by hand..leaves would have averaged 3-5 'breaks'/sections, meaning it was not especially finely ground/processed
..the material was covered with ethanol/H20/vinegar 90:5:5, and allowed to stand for 2-3 hours..
..the solution and plant material were then heated at approximately 70-80 degrees C, allowing the ethanol to boil..it took a medium red colour, around 2.3 litres..
..the liquid was poured off, reduced in volume by 75%, and filtered several times through unbleached cotton..a large of amount of particulate matter/tar amd gum was collected in the filter and discared..the volume was reduced to 300ml and brought to ph 5-6 with vinegar (a small dash)..this was labled ∂ (alpha)
..the plant material was then shaken with 250ml of ethanol for 30-45 seconds, this was discarded and combined with the first lot of liquid..
the phyllodes were then covered with H20 and approx. 100ml vinegar, and allowed to stand for 16 hours..it was then boiled for 40minutes..it took a golden/red colour with a slight milky cloudiness..
..the liquid was again poured off, reduced, and filtered several times..far less tar/gum was caught than in the alpha extraction..it was reduced to 300ml, final pH 5..this was labled the ß (beta) extraction..
..both acid solutions were then brought to pH 12-12.5 with NaOH/H20 solution, allowed to cool to room temperature, mixed with equal portions of dichloromethane, violently shaken for 10 minutes, and left to stand..clear separation of polar/non-polar layers took approx 1-2 hours..the NP solvent took on a mild yellow colour in both..
..the NP solvent was drained, washed once with H20/NaOH/NaCl solution (pH 8 ), re-separated after 20 minutes, and evaporated with a non-heat fan..
..after around 12 hours both extractions were a yellowish oil, though ∂ had more yellow, and signs of gum still congealing (pale brown paste)
..so..the results..?
∂ resulted in 30-40mg of a yellow/beige 'toffee' which would not completely solidify after another 24 hours of standing..experience and bioassay suggested that it was probably at least half nmt (n-methyltryptamine)
ß resulted in almost 1.5 grams (yes, 1500mg) of mainly off-white dmt soft crystals, with small amounts of yellow conglomerations..crystalization was sped up by scratching the surface of the 'oil' with a needle..later assay suggested mainly dmt, though it did not completely solidify, reverting to 'putty', often caused by nmt with betacarbolines, and perhaps trace fatty acids..these do not detract from the experiential aspect..

..a third 'pull', with 40minutes heat as in the beta, resulted in maybe 50mg alkaloid at most, so esstentially the ß extracted most of the alkaloids..
the percentage, then, of this A. maidenii was around 0.3% [from phyllode/small twig 80:20]..qualitively it was probably, in the case of the ß at least 85% dmt,with probably some nmt (slight duration extension and extra spatialness) and trace betacarbolines (as suggested by a slightly slowed onset at assay, and again slight time extension..according to the bio-assayer)

so, this would suggest, amongst other things, that some tests would find only a small percentage, not going through the extra stage as described here..also, it suggests that water slightly fortified with ethanol and a dash of white vinegar is the preferred solution..

..some brands of methylated spirits (95% ethanol) can be substituted, check carefully for residues;
methanol is the most efficient but is very poisonous and has no smell, so should not be used outside of safe lab conditionsl..due to reaction problems caused by some acids with acacias specifically i would suggest using (for now) only either acetic, dilute sulphuric, or citric acids
..as far as non-polar solvent choices go, hexane and xylene will work as well as described above in place of dcm; naphtha will usually require 2-3 pulls or extractions from the basic solution, whereas these other solvents require often only 1 solvent washing (they have a higher 'holding capacity', or solubility ratio)
..d-limonine..endlessness has achieved very good general dmt extraction results with the more 'natural' d-limonine (NP solvent derived from oil of lemon/citrus, naturally occuring in traces in the rind) ..this is perhaps what 'from plant' purists & organicists best use..
..chloroform is the common scientific standard NP solvent for such tasks, but should not be exposed to sunlight or left standing for long with alkaloids, or can react, as can to a lesser extent other chlorinated hydrocarbons..
for more detail on basifying alternatives to NaOH (some potentially less harsh)
and solvent choices/comparison, search the extraction subforums of the Nexus..

..hope this info is helpful, encourages sustainable leaf teks, and leads to less likely wastage of long grown plant material through inefficient or failed extraction..

please be kind to trees and grow them..

Its from nen888 you can find it here: Acacia Extraction Workspace - A/B - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus
 
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