Martial arts?

[Hyperspace Fool]

I'm an enthusiastic BJJ practitioner, I've also trained both MMA and muay thai and I firmly believe in the effectiveness of all these in a situation where a violent action is inevitable. The doubts I have regarding the traditional arts and some of the techniques they teach is the inability to drill them realistically, how am I supposed to perform a 5 point death strike (and I don't mean to mock, it's just a technique mentioned here and I don't know the names of the traditional techniques) under stress in midst of the chaos of a fight if I've never been able to work in the muscle memory under these circumstances? I really like BJJ because you can go pretty much full blast during sparring sessions without fearing serious injury, let alone death.

The fact that you can train full blast without hurting anyone shows that the techniques are not deadly.

Arts that rely heavily on grappling seem more effective than they actually are in real life combat because rarely are you able to focus on a single opponent who is going to refrain from using deadly techniques on you while you maneuver him into position. Because you can't gouge eyes, snap necks or break vital bones in MMA or any such "sport" it is not an actual approximation of real combat where the opponent will have no such restrictions, and will likely be armed with a weapon.

MMA techniques will not help you when you are attacked by a gang of people, or even when a mugger pulls a knife on you. Sport arts like Judo, Jiu Jitsu, Karate and the like train you to be proficient in the sport... with its rules in mind. Street fighting has no rules.

The strike I described can be practiced on a heavy punching bag, on pieces of wood, on wooden strike training dummies etc. It is not a difficult technique to master and is effortless to use in actual combat. The first poke is easy to sneak past most defenses as it is not a punch and only requires a small amount of pressure... this however causes involuntary muscle response from the person poked, to which you instantly apply the leaopard paw knuckle strike (this is often enough to break bones) where you have merely continued the forward motion, but now apply your weight to a strike with a very narrow surface of contact... thus drastically increasing the pounds of pressure per square inch and making it childs play to completely shatter ribs and other relatively week bones... dislocate jawbones etc. The third strike is with the full fist, again in a single motion from the 2nd strike. This gives the opportunity to use blunt force and increasing weight to an area that is already injured (this tends to send the broken ribs or bones splintering inward... into vital organs and the like. Strike four is the forearm smash... which in typical overkill with techniques designed to kill, obliterates whatever was left of the ribs (or whatever) and drives them deeply into the underlying organs and tissues causing hemorrhaging and sever internal bleeding. This is followed by the fifth strike which is an elbow applied to the same location still in one fell swoop of a motion. By this time one's full weight is brought to bear and the results of this strike can be horrific... undefended vital organs riddled with bone just explode.

The optional 6th strike is a shoulder that sends the opponent flying... either away or to the ground depending on your wish... it can be replaced with a wrist lock or simply hyper-extending the elbow... or many other things for that matter.

End result, in a single strike you have delivered a plethora of blows, and by not having to pull your hand back between strikes, once the first one has landed, it is very hard for the opponent to avoid the following strikes. A good first strike can already paralyze entire muscle groups. By the time the last strike lands, the opponent is a bag of jelly. Even if only half of these blows land properly, the person on the receiving end is certain to be unable to continue on as a threat to you. Hard to imagine (and it is only one tiny part of the overall range of possible high level Techniques)... but, this kind of strke can be trained and tested.

 

[ewok]

As mentioned I do brazilian jiu jitsu and again hyperspacefool I disagree with your assessment of it. Yes people compete under rules but doesn't mean we all train with those rules. I have disarmed an attacker with a baseball bat that had many nails poking out of it. I used jiu jitsu as I learnt it. sure helped me in a real life situation. He was put to sleep unable to attack I was uninjured and was at no risk of being charged with any sort of excessive force bullshit that often happens when one defends themselves.

Can you explain how you test your 5 point punch? I can practice all sorts of stuff on a bag but does it work?

 

[Hieronymous]

I'm a 3rd dan black belt at Karate, with a fair bit of experience in the ring back in days when kickboxing was popular.

Last week I had an altercation with a bloke up the road who is a BJJ/MMA practitioner and I've got to admit my Karate didn't help me much if at all. I sustained a fairly serious neck injury trying to avoid his choke hold.

I managed to escape by lifting his whole body and slamming him into the ground a few times (that's how I hurt my neck) and then I kept him at a distance so I could read his attacks, everytime he made a charge he went for the mid section so my rugby league experience helped me fend him off and keep him down & out of the way. I sort of panicked a bit too and threw my legs back each time he made a charge so he couldn't get hold of them to lift & turn me over. I collected him with a few head and neck shots as I was getting out of the way each time which subdued him after a about six or seven attempts to get me on the ground.

I really think I just got lucky when I escaped him the first time, my strength & fitness (I train with Russian Kettlebells almost every day & a 20kg Bulgarian bag almost every other day) helped a lot and my rugby league experience helped a lot too.

All my martial arts experience basically amounted to nothing when faced with someone willing to take a few big hits to get me on the ground. I was only game to kick this guy once, it did hurt him but it got me off balance and he almost got the chance to move in on me.

I've gained a lot of respect for BJJ.

 

[ewok]

^^ Just needed that 5 point death punch thingy.

 

[Hieronymous]

Yeah I can't see how that 5 point punch could be applied to a BJJ attacker. The speed of the attack combined with the fact that there are no exposed weak spots (except maybe the neck) when they charge like a bull makes a lot of traditional martial arts useless.

You don't even have time knee them in the face or get an elbow in because of the way their attacks are designed - fast and unbalancing.
The only openings I could see were on my way out after a charge.
I have to admit I was at a serious loss because of my lack of grappling skills so I had to avoid him at all costs.

Traditional martial employ a fighting distance that is just outside the reach of the opponent and that's required to be able to deploy an attack, if you try that approach with a BJJ opponent you will get hurt, they will get hurt a bit too but they've planned on that and are willing to take a few hits to get you where they want.

 

[ewok]

Don't worry hyperspace fool will be along soon to enlighten us again on how useless bjj is in real combat. And how he would of exploded his head like a watermelon with a 1 hit death punch. I think thats the go to move when the 5 point punch isn't an option anyway. but the master will inform us.

 

[Rising Spirit]

I am curious how many of you folks have discovered "the art of fighting without fighting"? Bruce Lee used this quote in the famous motion picture, Enter The Dragon. It was a direct paraphrasing from the acute wisdom of the 15th-16th century Japanese master swordsman, Tsukahara Bokuden. He was the greatest swordsman in Japan in his own lifetime and he freely traveled across Japan, perfecting his skills with the katana (Japanese long sword). He became famous for being unbeatable, due to his concentration and uncanny martial instincts. He was known for his slogan, "Style of No Sword".

One day in a boat crossing Lake Biwa, he was challenged to a duel to the death, by a pumped-up youth, arrogant and full of unbridled aggression. Bokuden knew that in a few simple movements he could easily kill the offender but felt a deep sense compassion for the ignorant antagonist. Just what would it prove to take the life of this foolish youth? he thought of the parents, siblings and closest friends of this person, of their sorrow and the suffering resulting from his meaningless death. So, he accepted the challenge but insisted upon meeting in an open area, not upon a crowed boat full of passengers. Much the same as the scene from Enter The Dragon.

The antagonist agreed to this sensible notion and when Bokuden advised their taking a row boat to a small, nearby island, they began their journey to the island. When they reached the island, the young man jumped vigorously to the shoreline and drew his sword aggressively. Bokuden simply used the oar to push off from the shoreline and rowed away from the antagonist. When he was a good 30 feet offshore, he shouted to the foolish youngster, "This is my style, the true art of no sword". He abandoned the kid to think things over and he never even drew his blade to defeat the challenger.

In essence, it's not about kicking ass or breaking bones... it's about winning a violent fight because one chooses to avoid the conflict through direct intention. In other words, when a warrior cultivates enough Qi, said warrior can easily evade the brutality of violence for violence's own insane sake.

Sometimes we are not privileged to have this kind of psychological advantage. So... we use our skills to deflect the assault with our bodies. This is were serious training is necessary. But never ever think for even a second, that we are fighting the other. We are always fighting our own weaknesses and our own fears.

The trick is actually knowing when to resist an attack... and when to recede from any resistance. The strongest fighters do not parade about in spectacles, like the grotesque madness of the machismo enacted within "the octagon"... they quietly cultivate an unwavering degree of highly focused intent and a clear degree in clarity of focus (which goes beyond winning or losing, mere egoic conflicts or when push comes to shove, self-defense).

A true Master is one who understands when and where to use violent means for a truer purpose than who is the baddest dude in a scuffle. This can only righteously happen to protect the weak, the innocent and to uphold the decency of the human spirit, itself, a spark of the Divine Mind in sentient action.
Just sayin' cause in my own experience, it's true... 8)

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

Look, I have long since grown bored with this thread, so I will break it down quickly:

1) The sad fight scene described by Hieronymous above is unfortunate and should never have happened in all likelihood, but all it proves is that even a weak combat art like Karate and a practitioner who is only 3rd Dan (something most people can achieve in 5 years or so), and one who was admittedly scared and intimidated... can still go toe to toe with a BJJ guy and come out without being choked out... even after having had the BJJ guy get the jump on him to start, no less. Seems this anecdotal tale makes BJJ look rather bad, because Karate is also a sport art and a rather terrible system of self-defense. I can say that because I was also a Karate blackbelt before I got into Kung Fu. (and Shotokan is not nearly the worst of the Karates either)

2) Individual fights and the respect that the fighters may earn therein, are only partially attributable to the style they practice and accrue to a large degree on the physical and mental skills of the individuals in question. There are untrained street fighters that are dangerous as can be... and there are people studying very fine arts who haven't got the stones to be remotely effective in combat. (In response to Hieronymous' saying that this fight got him to respect BJJ more.)

3) Fighting is the least impressive part of any real martial art. If all you learn about and all you think about is fighting, you are being a meathead and such martial artists give us all a bad name. Learn to meditate. Get into some breathwork... you would think that anyone interested enough in psychedelics to join a DMT forum would at least be interested to know that the really advanced arts are all about getting you ridiculously high. Yogic arts are, in fact, systems of endogenous entheogen production. Fighting is just a way for people with way too much testosterone to blow off steam.

4) As such, actual masters never fight unless it is truly UNAVOIDABLE (unlike sports artists who often are just itching to test themselves). When a violent situation is unavoidable, it is generally a life or death situation. And so, IF a master is going to strike you, it will usually be the last thing that ever happens to you. Laugh at me all you will, but my statistics on pounds of pressure per square inch and vulnerable strike zones is accurate. The only way you could not be understanding me is if you are willfully obtuse. And considering the current round of name calling and ironic condescension... I think it is probably this unfortunately.

5) One can nearly always avoid a fight... and should. No one should be proud of any fight they found themselves in. This is the very worst of human nature.

6) Any "martial technique" where you rush at someone's mid section or dive at their legs is suicide in real life. Hieronymous was scared and in flee and defense mode in his confrontation and still managed to avoid that weak tea. Anyone I train with would surely have managed to use the forward momentum of the attacker to devastating effect. Hieronymous said that the neck is vulnerable... this is nearly always the case with BJJ and even moreso with MMA in general. They don't know how to defend this area because in their sport it is illegal to hit people there. I could deliver a leopard paw that would result in paralysis or death even if I let the idiot grappler grab me... in under a second.

7) People think that we "traditionsl" martial artists don't know how to grapple. This is not true. We often have very advanced grappling systems, and I was quite good at both Judo and Aikido before ever learning Kung Fu... but grappling is simply not an effective technique for real life combat situations. What do you do when there are two of them? You get stabbed in your kidneys is what. Joint locks and throws are more useful... submission holds can be used well when the situation doesn't call for hurting the opponent, but again, usually if that is the case... the fight could have been avoided and you are probably just being a meathead.

8) This kind of sick gladitorial conception of martial arts as some kind of glorious testing of combat skills for the entertainment of all is rather twisted. People who engage in it willingly and even those who enjoy watching it... tend to have a dark streak in their soul a mile wide. Sorry, but having a deep interest in gladiator combat (even if it is watered down and at least somewhat fake) is sad and not worthy of a real martial artist.

9) The illusion that these one on one, regulated matches with clear start and end times and referees has anything in common with what happens in real life and death situations... is a dangerous one. Most MMA guys really do believe that they can fight. And there is no doubt that their physical shape, stamina, and general testosterone level will, in fact, enable them to defeat most of the untrained and out of shape masses... even many other martial artists who either practice a sport art or are not proficient in a combat art they are learning... so they tend to get even more cocky because they find that they can defeat normal people with ease. But engaging in combat and taking pride in it always comes back to bite you in your ass. There will eventually be someone who will come along and put you in the hospital or the morgue. At some point a real killer will cross your path and he (and his buddies) will carve you up like a turkey and leave you dying in a pool of your own blood.

I sincerely wish that none the Nexians who practice martial arts ever have to use it in real life. But if you are attacked by a gang of armed thugs... do not try and grapple with them.

So, I will bid this thread adieu and leave it over to the youngsters who love their sports, and get some ineffable thrill from watching "fights" on TV. If those fights were as real as you hope they are... it would only be an even bigger indictment about the state of your soul that you love to watch them. Watching boxing matches is bloodthirsty enough, cheering on rough & tumble style pit fighting makes you a sociopath in my opinion. Young boys full of spunk seem to be at least partly evil, though. Most of them only watch hockey for the fights and race car driving for the crashes. They sit around and share youtube videos of people being hurt, and were probably the core audience for the Jackass films.

I know of no martial or cultural tradition where such attitudes are acceptable from a warrior. I suggest people read Musashi and the Samurai Code. The way of the warrior is not this juvenile fighting. The human body is simply too weak and easily broken. MMA is dangerous because it gives kids the idea that you can hit someone in the nose with your full force and they will just shrug it off and continue fighting with you. In actuality any martial artist worthy of the name would be shoving your broken nose bone and a mess of cartilage into your brain.

I am actually glad that MMA and BJJ in particular have become popular, if only because an entire generation of young people looking to fight are now grappling and not killing each other. They can get a great workout, learn valuable physical and mental skills... and not be a danger to their society in general. So, I am fine with this. Much better than having them all learn Ninjitsu, Kenpo and San Soo like they did in the generation or two before. Kids getting into fights at school with throwing darts, sais and shiruken.

IMHO a real martial artist is the guy serving food to homeless people with humility and mindfulness... not the kids who go bum bashing and watch bum fights on the computer their mommy bought them.


Peace out my hommies. Stay safe.
HF

 

[ewok]

Odd you run down and mock other martial arts hyperspace fool, then take the high road when mocked or questioned on your ludicrous claims.

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

Odd you run down and mock other martial arts hyperspace fool, then take the high road when mocked or questioned on your ludicrous claims.

I take the high road while running down arts that are called martial but are actually sports. I don't leave the high road, I like mountains.

If you think my claims are ludicrous, you probably aren't reading my posts... and at any rate your blithe and antagonistic replies are not answering or even acknowledging the things I have laid out in much detail. My posts are long enough... yours, on the other hand are probably grounds for a warning from a mod.

Name calling does not make you seem witty or enhance your presentation of your opinion. You simply look petulant. Mocking is what you do. I demonstrate solid points as the basis for my poor opinion of MMA as a combat art... none of the fanboys here have even tried to refute these points, so I suppose talking smack and being snide are your only recourse.

I think my rather long posts and willingness to respond to people even when they are clearly just baiting me shows that I am not avoiding any confrontation. If you have some guns to break out go for it... go through my pages of input on this thread and address what I have said... then I will be happy to answer any unanswered questions you might have. If you do not, there is no need for any further communication between us.

To dumb that down a bit and make sure you understand... I will debate you any time of day or night... I actually enjoy a good debate, so bring it on.

 

[Hieronymous]

I've got to agree, fighting certainly is a mugs game.

I only fought because I was attacked and I had no choice.

I've also done Kempo, Hapkido and some (not much) Ninjitsu, for the last 10 years all I've done is Qi gong.

Scared - for sure I was scared, I was being attacked by man nearly 20 years younger than myself who was off his face on ice and holds a red & black belt in BJJ.

The fear was probably what saved me, when you get scared your body releases adrenaline and you become much stronger and your reactions become much faster - the fight or flight mechanism. I was always taught to embrace fear and realise it is a natural response that can be very beneficial.

The Ninjitsu is worth a mention here too, I could never lay a punch or a kick on my Ninjitsu teacher, I'd go to hit him when sparring and he'd roll away and pop up 5 or 6 feet away. That mentality to stay out of range certainly helped.

& yes I was one of those testosterone pumped meatheads in my youth and I had many street/club fights as a result as well as nearly 30 sport fights in the kickboxing ring with better than average results in both.

They were the reasons for my contempt for BJJ, now I've experienced it first hand the contempt has turned to respect just as the contempt from the BJJ crowd down the road has now turned into respect for me.

 

[ewok]

Haven't once called you names, I read you posts and the exploding heads like watermelons 1hit death puch 5 hit punch etc are all ludicrous claims.

I can't see a mod warning me for that or for asking for evidence, you can't prove your claims so a debate is meaningless.


I'm happy doing jiu jitsu your happing with whatever you do. Isn't that the point. The fact you so adamantly run down jiu jitsu while not being able to prove your claims says a lot to me.

 

[ewok]

Scared - for sure I was scared, I was being attacked by man nearly 20 years younger than myself who was off his face on ice and holds a red & black belt in BJJ.

There aren't many red/black belts in bjj assuming one got a black belt at 20 it takes 30 year's minimum to reach red/black. Makes you nearly 70.

You sure was red/black belt?

 

[Hieronymous]

When he goes to to train he wears a black belt with a red tip.

I just thought it was a red belt, I don't know anything about their grading systems.

I'm almost 45 and I'm guessing he's about 28.

Maybe it's become like Karate did before I left - pay your money and get the belt.

 

[ewok]

When he goes to to train he wears a black belt with a red tip.

I just thought it was a red belt, I don't know anything about their grading systems.

I'm almost 45 and I'm guessing he's about 28.

Maybe it's become like Karate did before I left - pay your money and get the belt.

Red black belt is sections of red and black along the belt that guy just be black belt. And unfortunately has happened the whole buy ya belt in bjj. but people that train it know the legit guys from the rest.

 

[Aegle]

Bub

I would highly recommend the martial art T'ai chi as it is a hard and soft martial art technique. The core philosophy is rather than meeting force with force to meet it with softness and follow its motion while remaining in physical contact until the incoming force of attack exhausts itself or can be safely redirected. I have personally gained so much control over my body and mind through Wu tang tai chi and Qi jong, also the health benefits were incredibly noticeable.



Much Peace and Kindness

 

[armbarsalot]

*repeated facepalm move of certain death*

i love all martial arts, each one can bring a person closer to their human potential. The fact that you can defend yourself is just a bonus.

 

[Jarppi]

Maybe hyperspace fool can come and teach us his legendary Fus Ro Dah attack from the Skyrim Dojo... meanwhile all I can do is to invite him to come do a training session at our gym so he can form an informed opinion on BJJ instead of basing himself on a couple of youtube clips and a few nights at the pub watching UFC.

I understand that for fighters the ego is a hard thing to keep in check and not even a sparring sessions can solve anything because the ego will spawn a plethora of excuses as to why "the superior art/fighter/player/team" didn't reign supreme this time. All this "traditional" vs "modern" martial arts discussion boils down to a differently worded Yankees/Red Sox argument in the end.

I also believe that Ewok is right when saying everyone should stick to training what makes them happy, that's the reason we haul our asses to the gym day after day after all. Let's not carry on with this pissing contest and try to keep the conversation positive .

 

[bub]

Hello Aegle and thank you for your suggesition.

I like the idea of energy arts. Just checking out some youtube vids and researching the branches Qigong.

I've found a great online 12 week training course at Long White Cloud Qigong.

Thank you you've made my day.

 

[armbarsalot]

My '100%' practice aka 'Rolling' usually consists of me putting myself in the worst possible position vs larger opponents and figuring out how to escape using technique over strength on a fully resisting opponent. This for me has made me a champion, when i go into competition i'm not worried about getting in a bad spot, its where i spend most of the time training.

I don't defend my belt vs the lower belts, i want them to try there best to tap me, thats how i learn. This is very hard for most people, letting go of the ego to gain knowledge is not natural. Our projections feed the conscious ego driven agendas, be good looking, rich , a better driver than others, and the illusion of an ability to physically fight. The reality is much different, we don't look that good, are just corporate shills, don't drive better than the guy next to you and can't maintain a physical fight for life more than a few minutes.

Letting go is a constant battle, the ego is always getting messages to conform & inflate itself w/ the comparison of others. We can only repeatedly analyze our feelings and emotions for the telltale projections. Once assimilated healthily the ego is open to more of what the universe really has to offer. Synchronicity, collective consciousness & connection.