Mescaline STB without emulsion

[pete666]

Edit : This topic is not live anymore, please go to STB Mescaline Extraction TEK

Well, someone might be interested in avoiding emulsions in STB mescaline extractions. I found a way and I feel it might be of use for someone else. It is nothing new, everything can be found here or there, but here are concentrated important facts and confirmation it works when done all together. I hate any fear and fear of emulsions is something I really liked to avoid. It allows shaking without mercy and without any doubts. There is no need for any heating regarding emulsions in initial extraction.
It works for me with powderized peruvian torch dried chips from reputable Peru source. The chips are just green tissue. I didn't try it with anything else, so please bear that in mind. If you try with anything else, feel free to inform others about results in this thread.

So, for STB follow these recommendations :

1. For initial cell breakdown - Water - use 1:7 ratio (weight - cactus/water). KOH - use 1:1,5 ratio (weight - cactus/KOH)
2. Mix properly (I am using 1kW mixer) and let sit for 3-5 days (22C) until watery. Heating helps to speed up cell breakdown, but I am not using it.
3. When watery, add another water with 1:1,5 ratio (weight - cactus/water)
4. Add NaCl with 1:2,61 ratio (weight - cactus/NaCl). Mix properly before adding np
5. Then add toluene. I am using 2ml for 1g of cactus, but it might be less if you can remove all np easily

Then mix as you wish. I am using 1 min violent shaking with subsequent total layers separation. 3 rounds for first pull, 6 for second pull and 10 for third pull. First pull provides about 68%, second pull 22% and third one 10% of goods. First separations take longer, last are much faster. Sometimes first full separation takes few hours. But the result is - always zero emulsion layer!

 

[blue.magic]

Thanks, this is very helpful.

I have actually shifted towards basified alcohol extraction (An1cca's Tek) because of the emulsion problems in the past (e.g. Kash's Tek).

Some people also advise pressure cooking.

 

[pete666]

Yes, I know what you are talking about. My first extractions were full of heating to get rid of emulsions. For all pulls. But I felt STB is the right path for me. I don't like cooking anything, doesn't matter whether it is cactus or MHRB. Why use heat when there is no need?
STB can be pretty clean and straightforward.

The only challenges were :

- Emulsions - solved as stated above
- Powderization and mixing with water - ordinary mixer/blender with crushing ice function managed to do both. Clean & cheap
- Separation of np - 50ml pipette + rubber bulb is excellent for this. I can't imagine doing that by turkey baster and not having the result full of salt at the end
- Final cleanup - acetone, IPA and MEK washes (all cold/dry) remove almost everything unwanted. There only will be some micro-amounts of KCl (when salting by HCl). I don't have an idea how to remove it, but there is so little when np is separated correctly, so it doesn't matter

 

[pete666]

I've forgotten to mention - many thanks to Dg for all his posts about STB. Without all this information it would be much more complicated to succeed.

 

[blue.magic]

I prefer using as little chemicals as possible so I avoided STB due to excess base used. But I hate cooking even more, so...

I will try this as I need to process quite a bit of cactus and the alcoholic route would need at least three runs.

Powderization is the fun part for me - I just cut 5 mm stars, dry in a food dehydrator, crush and then load into coffee grinder.

As for the KCl, I would not be worried about it. Some people even use it as a substitute for table salt (no joke).

Also I've seen successful recrystallizations of M from just water, so that could remove that highly soluble salt.

 

[pete666]

Do you use whole cactus? Peruvian torch? I have tested it with green tissue chips, so you undertake a risk when using other parts like core, spines, skin and white tissue.
It might not cause problems, but it is not sure. I tried using the NaCl for extraction from MHRB and it caused huge emulsion. You have been watching the thread. I finally managed to break it down, but it was a pain.
But if you decide to go this route and prove it is ok for whole cactus, this might make a solid background for usable cactus STB tek. At least for peruvian torch.

 

[blue.magic]

Do you use whole cactus? Peruvian torch? I have tested it with green tissue chips, so you undertake a risk when using other parts like core, spines, skin and white tissue.
It might not cause problems, but it is not sure. I tried using the NaCl for extraction from MHRB and it caused huge emulsion. You have been watching the thread. I finally managed to break it down, but it was a pain.
But if you decide to go this route and prove it is ok for whole cactus, this might make a solid background for usable cactus STB tek. At least for peruvian torch.

No I use just the darker-green parts incl. the waxy skin. I simply cut it between the ribs, not completely to the core, then slice off the ribs and what remains is the core/spine that is discarded. I then chop the slices to a 5 cm parts (now resembling a triangular french fries) and put in a food dehydrator.

Dethorning is done prior to cutting only with the long-thron species. Not needed for T. Pachanoi.

I got about 1% yield of washed alkaloid extract from this biomass.

I have now extracted friend's cactus powder and got 0.6% yield. I suspect this powder was made from whole cactus.

 

[pete666]

So have you already used this STB?

I have some cactuses in my garden, they just need another year or two before I can use them. I will test them all with this STB to confirm compatibility. However, I will use whole cactuses, including spines and core.

 

[Fractalus]

hi pete! swims have a faw question about your stb tek

1. swim has lots of calcium hydroxide from 69ron tek, would it be fine to use it insteed of koh?
and if so at phase 1 of the tek, what is the ph of water one should reached/how much calcium to use?
2. in phase 2-4 after the mixing and let settle, the next mixing is after the adding the nacl, correct?
3. one can replace the xylan\toluene with other np like d-limo? already have it from 69tek..
4. what is the yield one get using this tek assuming san pedro is used?

thank a lottt dude!!! this tek can be the right path for swim extraction.

 

[pete666]

Hi Fractalus,

1. swim has lots of calcium hydroxide from 69ron tek, would it be fine to use it insteed of koh?
and if so at phase 1 of the tek, what is the ph of water one should reached/how much calcium to use?

No, it is a weak base. I even wouldn't use NaOH, which is strong one. This was tested with KOH and following it to the point is giving higher probability of success. Every extraction is different and even the same extraction with two vessels and identical procedure/chemicals being done simultaneously is sometimes giving different results.
We are not using the base only for migration of the goods, we need it for proper decomposition of the plant material. So it has to be strong.

2. in phase 2-4 after the mixing and let settle, the next mixing is after the adding the nacl, correct?

After few days (it has to turn watery no need to hurry) we add the water and NaCl at once. Then mix properly, then add np

3. one can replace the xylan\toluene with other np like d-limo? already have it from 69tek..

Well, it is the same like point 1 - I am not saying it is not possible. It may be. But there can be some reaction between the np and plant material or KOH or NaCl. If it causes saponification, there will be emulsion. I believe any emulsion can be broken up, but the magic is not having to do that. I have tested toluene and I would stick to it. It can (and should) be reused, so there is no need for much.
If I were you and I wanted to do any changes to the tek, I would buy big (5-10l) vessels for verified extraction and few small ones (1l) for tests. I would verify first my changed tek works and there are no problems with it, using 1l vessels. Then I would proceed with regular extraction using bigger vessels

4. what is the yield one get using this tek assuming san pedro is used?

I have consistently 1,3% of total alkaloids from dried green PT flesh from reputable Peru source. 1,2% of pure white mescaline HCl.
Nevertheless, the most important is of course the real content within the entry material.
I would say this tek gets almost everything from there, we are not using any heat and NaCl likely pushes another less soluble chemicals, which I belive mescaline fb is, out of the water. It's amount was designed to fully saturate the water.
If you follow this basic extration by proper HCl titration and not just simple blind salting, you will have direct feedback how much mescaline is in the pull you just pulled. So you can decide whether next pull is worth the effort.

thank a lottt dude!!! this tek can be the right path for swim extraction.

If you go this path, I can offer you some support. Anyway, the more you turn of its course, the more likey you will be fighting you own battle

 

[Jees]

Thanks for sharing your experiments :thumb_up:

...I even wouldn't use NaOH, which is strong one. This was tested with KOH...

In what way is KOH better than NaOH for the job? I'm no chem head

 

[pete666]

I never used NaOH for mescaline extraction, so I can't say KOH is better than NaOH from my own experience. I just know people are preferring it (less emulsions), so it was used with this tek and it worked. Changing to NaOH could theoretically cause some problems, which we are trying to avoid. Anyway, it might work, question is whether it is worth trying

 

[blue.magic]

Okay starting a peer-review of pete666's tek.

I have been given a cactus tea that went bad due to mould. It was kept in a freezer waiting for being salvaged by a samaritan extractor. I have left the contents to thaw, weighed and poured it into to a pot:

I was told there is 120 g of wachuma powder in the tea so the water weight was 760 g. I adjusted the water to the 1:7 w/w ratio (added about 80 ml of water).

Then I placed the pot in an ice bath and slowly added 180 g of KOH (1.5 times the weight of cactus).

NOTE: A better cooling would be provided by throwing 80 g of ice cubes in the tea instead.

Finally, the pot with the brown sludgey caustic porridge have been sealed and placed to a safe place for 3 days:

 

[pete666]

So the entry tea - how was it obtained? Was it result of some A/B trial? I am asking because if so, there might occur some unwanted reactions while cooking influencing the process. Hopefully no.

Usually when the powder is mixed with the basic water, it turns into snot. After few days it gets more fluid. If the soup was pre-boiled and it got through the foam stage, it might be quite watery now. If so, there is no need to leave it basified for 3 or more days, one day should be enough.

 

[blue.magic]

So the entry tea - how was it obtained? Was it result of some A/B trial? I am asking because if so, there might occur some unwanted reactions while cooking influencing the process. Hopefully no.

The tea is simply boiled down wachuma powder as used by the friend of mine.

The tea went through a freezer and sat in a fridge for some days before that. I smelled it and it felt like normal cactus tea, no sourness from fermentation. There was a mould on top, however, which has been carefully removed before the tea has been given to me.

 

[blue.magic]

Okay I checked the pot (3 days in) and the sludge is still thick, muddy. Not watery at all.

 

[pete666]

Is there any change in consistency? Or is it the same like 3 days ago?
It is never fully watery, but it changes a lot in this direction. If you see a change, I would suggest waiting next two days.
If you feel after 3 days it is not progressing as desired, heating it to 80C and leaving for hour or two heated, then let cool down slowly and leave day or two might help a lot. I don't have to do this though
But please be carefull, there is dangerous base in the solution. Always wearing goggles and always having vinegar at hand is a necessity. I know you likely know, but better be safe than sorry

 

[pete666]

And just one question, are you mixing the solution every few hours/few times a day? I do it always

 

[Fractalus]

ok so after about a week the jar was watery, then swim add extra water+nacl and mix.
after that swim sepatete xylen and vacuum filter it, then put in other jar 100ml dh2o and start titration with hcl.
all went good until the fifth titration correction there started to form tiny emulsion,
swim thought that ill be ok and keep with titration and now all the water become 1 big emulsion....

swim now put the xylen back to cacti jar to basified it with more alkaloid and put it back to dh2o jar to add allitle basified alkaloid that maybe disolve this emulsion issue...

any tips/ideas regarding the emulsion???

edit: swim probebly needed to stop at about ph 7...down from there the emulsion started

 

[pete666]

Have you been doing the titration heated to 60-80C (both water and np)?