Metabolism of Smoked RIMA/MAOI vs Oral

[Esperintensifies]

Greetings!
Apologies if this has been answered somewhere, I searched the forum to the best of my ability and couldn't find my answer.

Is there a rough approx. for the metabolism of smoked RIMA/MAOI substances? I'm aware of the 48 hr rule(up to 5 weeks for certain pharmaceuticals) for problematic food/herbs when it comes to taking them orally, as well as to avoid them for 24-48 hrs afterwards, but I'm finding precious little info on how long to exert caution when they've been smoked. Is the time frame comparable, or am I able to ingest, say, an entire tub of miso paste washed down with mung beans and hard cheese a few hours after the journey?

Thank you in advance kind souls.

 

[Hyper Turtle]

When i smoke changa with harmalas extracted from syrian rue, i eat whatever i like after an hour or two, never had any trouble.

In a dose of my changa, there's only 10-20mg of harmalas. And they go straight through the lungs into the blood, only little of them making it into the stomach where they could actually inhibit MAO that's relevant for digestion. When i do oral harmalas, i swallow at least 150mg, sometimes double that.

I can't speak to other RIMAs and MAOIs.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Yeah no need to avoid any foods, fasting the day if taking orally can be a good idea, but as far as food interactions go, there are none with Harmalas or Moclobemide. As far as smoked Harmalas go, ime it only lasts up to maybe a couple hours in effect, iirc, but with smoking you can actually get away with some things compared to orally.

 

[L-dreamer]

I am so confused by people when they ask about diet and the natural MAOIs at this point. I have never felt that diet interacts with natural harmalas before and after, and I snacked on pretty much everything minutes after the journey ended.
It will probably take more years until the effect of all those internet articles that worried needlessly people goes away

 

[Sabnock1990]

Yup, it's become overblown and misunderstood and yet the misunderstanding seems to persist, it'd help if articles and such would update their info but at this point with Aya tourism going on and the "dieta" which is a separate issue from the MAOI diet thing, coexisting with the Aya consumption at these retreats, people are likely to remain just as confused lol. Hopefully one day it'll be sorted out though.

 

[dreamer042]

To my knowledge there isn't really any data available on the pharmacokinetics of smoked/vaporized harmalas. The research just hasn't been done.

In general, tyramine containing foods shouldn't be an issue with harmalas via any roa since tyramine is metabolized by mao-b and harmalas only weakly inhibit mao-b, and then only at the higher dose range. I made a post breaking down the half life cycles for oral/sublingal harmalas here if you want a little more detail.

Just remember, the best miso soup does not taste of miso. 8)

 

[Sabnock1990]

Yeah even after higher/heavier dosages, Tyramine doesn't seem to be any issue with Harmalas, i dose very heavy on Harmalas because i consume them regularly and build up the reverse tolerance, which takes me into deep/heavy territory.

My understanding is that Harmalas only/primarily inhibit MAO-A, and any MAO inhibition by Harmalas is reversible. And apparently Tyramine can displace reversible inhibition from the enzyme, so even if Harmalas at heavy dosages did weakly inhibit MAO-B as well, it still shouldn't be any issue apparently. Plus gut MAO-A inhibition from Harmalas only lasts about the first two hours, after that gut MAO-A goes back to normal and if you try to take oral DMT past 2 hours, the oral DMT is no longer active, ime, which indicates no current gut MAO-A inhibition. So even if someone wanted to be cautious, they'd only really need to avoid foods for like a couple hours. I've even eaten a lot of the contraindicated stuff with gut MAO-A inhibition present and i haven't noticed any issues or symptoms.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Yup, it's become overblown and misunderstood and yet the misunderstanding seems to persist, it'd help if articles and such would update their info but at this point with Aya tourism going on and the "dieta" which is a separate issue from the MAOI diet thing, coexisting with the Aya consumption at these retreats, people are likely to remain just as confused lol. Hopefully one day it'll be sorted out though.

At this stage it's seeming like coming to understand these ideas is simply part of the journey. It's still worth bearing mind that there are a few pharmaceutical and recreational drugs that are best avoided in combination with harmalas - although right now when I think about rue toxicity I'm reminded of the more ridiculous reports, particularly one from Taiwan where a student presented to ER in an "agitated state" which was blamed on him consuming rue + acacia despite it also clearly being stated in the very same report that he had "amphetamine >20,000 ng/mL" and barely any further mention was made of this, not even in connection with how the patient "experienced behavioral effects of a sympathomimetic syndrome"!

Furthermore, "[t]wo hours after case 1 arrived in the ED, his 24-year-old male room-mate presented with impulsive mood and violent behavior 6 h after drinking the same herbal stew. The patient’s vital signs were T 35.7 C, HR 94 beats/min, BP 122/89 mmHg and RR 20 breaths/min. Physical examination was remarkable for a bite wound over his left hand which was alleged to be caused by his room-mate. Laboratory investigations were unremarkable except urine drug screen was positive for amphetamine (>3500 ng/mL; cut off: 500 ng/mL) [Emphasis added] and again the amphetamine consumption was subject to no further comment. Compare those preceding values for amphetamine with the following:
"Patients’ blood and spot urine was analyzed by LC/MS/MS which revealed the presence of DMT (case 1 urine: 1206 ng/mL, serum: 25 ng/mL; case 2 urine: 478 ng/mL, serum: undetectable) and harmaline (case 1 urine: 1564 ng/mL, serum: 3.3 ng/mL; case 2 urine: 1230 ng/mL, serum: undetectable)" - whereas the consultant somehow came to the following conclusion: "The diagnosis of DMT poisoning is confirmed by the presence of DMT and harmaline in patients’ serum and urine. Case 1 exhibited more severe signs and symptoms (e.g., altered consciousness, rhabdomyolysis, and elevated liver enzyme) than case 2. This may be explained by the presence of psychoactive DMT levels in the blood of case 1 whereas DMT was undetected in the blood of case 2." I find this staggering.

Here's a thread that mentions the famous case of the kilogram of testicles :lol: : Syrian Rue Toxicity

 

[Sabnock1990]

Yeah i always emphasize that drug to drug interactions need to be avoided, when i speak of diet i am speaking of food, drug to drug interactions are a real concern, but at the same time some things people think you should avoid are actually rather safe ime, though i wouldn't take Amphetamine, i always warn against that and MDMA in combination with RIMA's.

 

[brokedownpalace10]

I always wondered if smoked Harmalas would orally activate anything to any degree at all.

I played with Harmalas (Rue) and had a few unsuccessful attempts at Aya in the past. The admixtures were likely not enough. Definitely felt the oral Rue anyway.
Once I ate a bunch of Cincinnati chili a few hours later. Mounds and mounds of cheddar cheese involved.
I vomited, shivered, and felt shaky and horrible for a couple/few hours, then recovered fine.

 

[Sabnock1990]

"I vomited, shivered, and felt shaky and horrible for a couple/few hours, then recovered fine."

Yeah that's just the effects of Harmalas, particularly Harmaline, the chili and cheese wasn't the issue.

 

[Esperintensifies]

Thank you everyone for the wealth of information!
I am not *completely* inexperienced with RIMA/MAOIs (though I am certainly not seasoned) and am aware that for most people that food interactions tend to be minimal. However, I seem to be one of the unfortunate bastards that's more susceptible to the negative side of the interactions,(I get pounding headaches eating high-tyramine/tyrosine foods a few hours afterwards) and thus want to execute the upmost caution.

I was also wondering if any among you routinely take herbs or pharmaceuticals that they discontinue before inhaled MAOI/RIMA use, and if so, how long you abstain from them before journeying. I personally take a sizable amount/variety of herbs and supplements on a daily basis to manage my ADHD. Life is very difficult without them, and I'd like to be without for as short a period a time as possible while still ensuring the situation is as safe as possible. Going into that headspace with even the faintest inkling that you may require a hospital trip is never a good time

 

[Esperintensifies]

When i smoke changa with harmalas extracted from syrian rue, i eat whatever i like after an hour or two, never had any trouble.

In a dose of my changa, there's only 10-20mg of harmalas. And they go straight through the lungs into the blood, only little of them making it into the stomach where they could actually inhibit MAO that's relevant for digestion. When i do oral harmalas, i swallow at least 150mg, sometimes double that.

I can't speak to other RIMAs and MAOIs.

Firstly, thank you so much for responding.

So they're defiantly less of a threat when inhaled when it comes to interactions with orally consumed substances, if I'm understanding this correctly?

 

[Hyper Turtle]

I believe so, yes. I'd expect any interactions that happen in the brain to be the same as with oral consumption (maybe shorter lasting), but any interactions in the stomach to be much reduced with smoked harmalas.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

I'd be intrigued to know what herbs and supplements you've been using. I use a fair few things myself and they "don't seem to do me any harm" alongside regular hamala intake (yeah, I've always been like this :lol: )

You may just be a tad unlucky with things like your TAAR and 5-HT7 isoforms, or aspects of your metabolic enzymes but it would still be helpful yo know what you've been taking regularly so that we could comment on compatibility with harmala alkaloids (not to be mistaken for medical advice, mind you).

And Homo Trypens is essentially right, if there's less harmala alkaloid in your system there's less of it to cause problems - which considering it's a reversible inhibitor of MAO-a will be minimal under normal circumstances anyhow.

 

[Esperintensifies]

I believe so, yes. I'd expect any interactions that happen in the brain to be the same as with oral consumption (maybe shorter lasting), but any interactions in the stomach to be much reduced with smoked harmalas.

Thank you friend! I figured something in that ballpark, but it's immensely reassuring to see it validated.

 

[Esperintensifies]

I'd be intrigued to know what herbs and supplements you've been using. I use a fair few things myself and they "don't seem to do me any harm" alongside regular hamala intake (yeah, I've always been like this :lol: )

You may just be a tad unlucky with things like your TAAR and 5-HT7 isoforms, or aspects of your metabolic enzymes but it would still be helpful yo know what you've been taking regularly so that we could comment on compatibility with harmala alkaloids (not to be mistaken for medical advice, mind you).

And Homo Trypens is essentially right, if there's less harmala alkaloid in your system there's less of it to cause problems - which considering it's a reversible inhibitor of MAO-a will be minimal under normal circumstances anyhow.

It's almost easier to say what I *don't* take. :lol: I rotate and experiment with them on a monthly basis both to find the most efficacious combinations and to avoid tolerance. Some things that usually make it onto the list are -

Raw cacao (in large doses, around 2-3 tbsp)
5 HTP(taken with green tea extract)
CBD Oil
Bacopa Monneri
Kava Kava
Gui Pi Wan(TCM herbal formula)
An Shen Bu Nao Wan(TCM herbal formula)
Yerba Mate
Beef Liver Extract
Tumeric
L-Arginine
Chaga Extract
Hawthorne
Milk Thistle
MSM powder
HMB powder
Some protein powder with a butt-ton of tyrosine/tryamine added in
Adderall(When all else fails)

With a potential pool of substances that ridiculously large, you can see why I'm a bit anal retentive about the matter. esp. in the case of the TCM formulas, which have upwards of 10 different plants in them EACH. So it seemed easier to tackle this from the angle of "how long will the substance in question take to metabolize" rather than "will all these other substances play nice with them?"

 

[dreamer042]

The adderall and the 5-htp would be contraindicated in theory.

In practice reuptake is still functioning and would clear away excess serotonin from the 5-htp and adderall is going to be metabolized by mao-b, but particularly if you are already sensitive to food effects, it's best to err on the side of caution and just avoid such combinations.

The main thing I'd stress to avoid with harmalas is SSRI's in any form (st johns wort, kanna, etc). The likelihood of experiencing serotonin syndrome is very high with both mao and reuptake pathways blocked.

 

[brokedownpalace10]

"I vomited, shivered, and felt shaky and horrible for a couple/few hours, then recovered fine."

Yeah that's just the effects of Harmalas, particularly Harmaline, the chili and cheese wasn't the issue.

It was hours after the come up, it was wearing off or I would not have eaten that. I also did the same amount of Rue at least two other times with no issues.

But, yeah, it's possible I just got food poisoning or something.

 

[murklan]

It was hours after the come up, it was wearing off or I would not have eaten that. I also did the same amount of Rue at least two other times with no issues.

But, yeah, it's possible I just got food poisoning or something.

I've had experiences where the nausea from syrian rue (as tea or extracted harmalas) produce nausea several hours after ingestion. It usually takes ~2h for me to start feeling some effects when taken orally and then perhaps 3-4h more until I can start feeling nauseous. But that is when I've also taken DMT (vaped).