microdosing, whats the deal?

[burnt]

I'm curious about this trend of 'microdosing' psychedelics. Overall I'm quite skeptical of its benefits. But maybe I don't know enough about it. Currently it does not seem as if much research has been done in this area. Although I think there are now some studies underway I don't know much about that either. I've never microdosed any psychedelic for any length of time. I've taken plenty of low doses but never chronically. I never saw the point in taking a sub-perceptual dose of a psychedelic. Seems like it would be a waste of precious substances. So whats the deal?

What dosages are people really talking about when they talk about microdosing? I've seen ranges vary from like 0.1 - 0.5 gram mushrooms for example. Half a gram of mushrooms is a perceivable dosage for many people so isn't this just a low dose?

What kind of conditions are people really trying to treat with microdosing psychedelics? I've heard all sorts of claims. Are people using psychedelics to treat diagnosable mental or physical conditions? Or are people really just trying to find another quick fix to general malaise so many feel in our modern society?

Is microdosing somehow cheapening and in some sense cheating the psychedelic experience? Especially when its used to further 'productivity' in the economic context of like coders coding all night for their digital marketing firms (or whatever similar example) while 'microdosing'? I have no doubt psychedelics can enhance creativity and problem solving but I guess to me to get those benefits you have to actually feel the drug, or no?

To me the whole trend seems silly and could even be dangerous depending on the substance, dose, and duration of use. Although there is no evidence of harm so far here is one discussion of a potential drawback on the heart for example: Why Chronic Microdosing Might Break Your Heart

 

[OliverJ]

I have personally microdosed iboga for substantial lengths of time, with significant results.

For many months post treatment all my sleep issues were a distant memory but the most profound and incredible result was the elimination of the vast majority of my anxiety triggers or symptoms.

I can't say enough how transformative iboga has been for me. I still take it from time to time when my sleep cycles get ruined (I'm a bodybuilder and certain steroids ruin sleep) but the anxiety changes have seemingly been permanent.

My dose varied from 0.3 to 0.5g per day for weeks at a time, with small breaks and then continuing again. I did this for a year or two.

Im growing mushrooms right now, my girlfriend suffers with depression and she is hoping to trial micro dosing them.

 

[King Tryptamine]

I've never understood the deal for micro-dosing psychedelics myself especially it's efficacy (if any) in treating the numerous conditions that advocates propose for. I don't believe the practice to have any added benefit than what an effective above threshold dose of a given psychedelic would produce in regards to disorders such as depression and anxiety. The only reason why I think people may feel improvement in whatever condition they're trying to self medicate is coming from the placebo effect. This placebo effect is pretty common in many trendy drug uses such as the use of cacao in order to produce a stimulant or empathogenic effect analogous to MDMA or other strongly psychoactive drugs of the two classes.

As for the link I can't exactly poke any holes in it regarding the cardio-toxicity of 5-HT2B agonist. If people are using threshold doses of psychedelics which are 5-HT2B agonist as well as alpha 1, alpha 2 ,etc... agonist thereby placing further strain on the cardiovascular system via vasoconstriction and tachycardia it could potentially be a health hazard, especially if used chronically.

Just my take on micro-dosing, not claiming anything as a definite fact but an opinion of my current understanding which to be honest isn't that much regarding this topic since I don't have any interest when it comes to the usage of psychedelics in this particular way.

 

[burnt]

Thanks for responses.

Oliver: I've no experience with iboga and not much of a sense regarding normal dosage. When you say 0.3-0.5g per day are you talking about ibogaine (or some other extract of iboga) or the iboga plant material itself (dry weight)? Do you have experience with full doses of iboga? If so was microdosing regimes done after or before experience with full dosage? Were you using it to deal with an opiate issue? Does anything happen when you stop?

The only reason why I think people may feel improvement in whatever condition they're trying to self medicate is coming from the placebo effect. This placebo effect is pretty common in many trendy drug uses such as the use of cacao in order to produce a stimulant or empathogenic effect analogous to MDMA or other strongly psychoactive drugs of the two classes.

Yes indeed placebo could be at play. I would imagine at least it would be easier to design a blinded clinical trial using microdosing versus placebo that is very hard to do with macro dosing versus placebo!

 

[null24]

As an initial proponent of microdosing, I"m not now certain at all about any positive effects beyond placebo, at least in dealing with depression, which has been the reason for my investigating it. I do think that, for me, a low-dose rathet than a microdose of psilocybin has a stimulsting effect that can help lift me out of the inaction of a depressive episode.

Initially, I felt there was success but with more clarity I now think it came more from other actions, like engaging in a more holisticaly healthy lifestyle along with integrating actually very powerful psychedelic experiences.

I do like to munch on a little less than a gram of dried mushies and go about my day, it does life my mood, but in a very similar fashion to a good cup of coffee, it just lasts longer with less comedown than caffiene.

And I can't help but think that it is cheapening the entire concept of psychedelics, but this community is going through some growth pains, eveolving into something new and making sense of itself. A good majority of people looking into it are doing so with the best intentions, but there are also people out there looking to cash in on it, and pushing the idea as a panacea. We are seeing this with CBD and to a lesser extent kratom and other things.

At the same time, its basically harmless, and does seem to be producing more and more people endorsing it, thereby "legitimatizing" psychedelic use, at least in some form. What I'm seeing here coming out of the group of people locally (Oregon) that promote microdosing and other therapeutic use though is that a lot of them think that psilocybin "legalization" looks like private clinics linked to certified producers,($$$) staffed by people who took 4-hour online courses teaching them how to "facilitate" so that they can charge hundreds or thousands for "sessions" and follow-up "integration plans". That's all good if people want or feel they need to have their hand held, but I want nothing to do with anyone's mindfold and gd spotify playlist, and if it doesn't accept insurance (it doesn't) then these [plans are elitist in my opinion.

So yeah, I really don't promote it anymore.

 

[OliverJ]

Thanks for responses.

Oliver: I've no experience with iboga and not much of a sense regarding normal dosage. When you say 0.3-0.5g per day are you talking about ibogaine (or some other extract of iboga) or the iboga plant material itself (dry weight)? Do you have experience with full doses of iboga? If so was microdosing regimes done after or before experience with full dosage? Were you using it to deal with an opiate issue? Does anything happen when you stop?

I'm talking straight iboga, plant material. A full dose to trip would be in the region of 20g or so. When I came across iboga I had no experience at all in psychedelics.

I was hoping to treat my hypogonadism brought on by steroid use, which didn't seem to recover with "traditional" medication. I speculated my serotonin/dopamine receptors were severely downregulated from 19-nor steroid use and so having read about Iboga and its effects on receptor upregulation, I was curious to try.

It didn't cure my hypogonadism and i'm now on TRT (but iboga does increase sex drive significantly for a short period). I have never fully dosed iboga and now that I frequently trip with ayahuasca I don't believe I ever will. I did not have any drug addiction/opiate issues that I was attempting to address.

Nothing happens when I stop - a sustained lift in mood and calmness fades over time. Sleep is drastically improved and remains so until I cycle particular steroids.

 

[burnt]

I'm talking straight iboga, plant material. A full dose to trip would be in the region of 20g or so. When I came across iboga I had no experience at all in psychedelics.

Interesting, I was reading that lower doses of Iboga were stimulating and aphrodisiac. I'm not sure dose range on that but The Encyclopedia of Psychoactive Plants by Christian Ratsch mentions a 'heaping teaspoon' to achieve this level of effect. Would you characterize half gram of root powder as having this sort of effect? Or is everything you experience sub-perceptual in terms of psychoactivity?

As an initial proponent of microdosing, I"m not now certain at all about any positive effects beyond placebo, at least in dealing with depression, which has been the reason for my investigating it. I do think that, for me, a low-dose rathet than a microdose of psilocybin has a stimulsting effect that can help lift me out of the inaction of a depressive episode.

Initially, I felt there was success but with more clarity I now think it came more from other actions, like engaging in a more holisticaly healthy lifestyle along with integrating actually very powerful psychedelic experiences.

Makes sense that other life style changes could also be a factor. What is a low dose compared to microdose of psilocybin in your case?

And I can't help but think that it is cheapening the entire concept of psychedelics, but this community is going through some growth pains, eveolving into something new and making sense of itself. A good majority of people looking into it are doing so with the best intentions, but there are also people out there looking to cash in on it, and pushing the idea as a panacea. We are seeing this with CBD and to a lesser extent kratom and other things.

At the same time, its basically harmless, and does seem to be producing more and more people endorsing it, thereby "legitimatizing" psychedelic use, at least in some form. What I'm seeing here coming out of the group of people locally (Oregon) that promote microdosing and other therapeutic use though is that a lot of them think that psilocybin "legalization" looks like private clinics linked to certified producers,($$$) staffed by people who took 4-hour online courses teaching them how to "facilitate" so that they can charge hundreds or thousands for "sessions" and follow-up "integration plans". That's all good if people want or feel they need to have their hand held, but I want nothing to do with anyone's mindfold and gd spotify playlist, and if it doesn't accept insurance (it doesn't) then these [plans are elitist in my opinion.

There are definitely positive and negative here I guess depending on how you look at it. Commodification of pyschedelics is a bit uncomfortable but most interactions of this nature whether it be with therapist, psychiatrist, or even religious figure are exchanges ultimately. That being said I do think some of this is being hyped for quick money and that is a shame. I have no interest in expensive psychedelic treatments. I can see how that might work for some people though.

 

[OliverJ]

I'm talking straight iboga, plant material. A full dose to trip would be in the region of 20g or so. When I came across iboga I had no experience at all in psychedelics.

Interesting, I was reading that lower doses of Iboga were stimulating and aphrodisiac. I'm not sure dose range on that but The Encyclopedia of Psychoactive Plants by Christian Ratsch mentions a 'heaping teaspoon' to achieve this level of effect. Would you characterize half gram of root powder as having this sort of effect? Or is everything you experience sub-perceptual in terms of psychoactivity?

Aphrodisiac, no doubt about it. Stimulating? Perhaps, hard for me to say. Not enough that I've ever noticed that as an effect. But I drink coffee and take pre workouts etc. In terms of psychoactivity, the only thing I had noticed was a profound anxiolytic effect, incredibly hard to describe but people with anxiety may be able to relate.

My anxieties largely centered around people looking at me or when having feelings that I was being watched - I would tremor in my hands and neck. For instance, I couldnt toast a round of champagne, because we would all be looking at each other and drinking, my hands would tremor so hard it would spill. Whilst I was micro dosing iboga I could "tell" myself that there was no reason to be anxious and the thought alone was strong enough to hold back the symptoms. The racing panic of anxiety could be controlled. After time, after repeatedly successfully not experiencing the anxiety symptoms, the anxiety in relation to anticipating the symptoms themselves was gone and also therefore the initial anxiety in itself was gone.

Your topic is an interesting one, because I see how psychedelics may likely be abused and exploited in a fashion by the medical / therapeutic sectors. I've no experience with mushrooms and don't really have any desire to microdose them (I want to trip!) so I have no place to comment on Nulls experiences, though they are interesting to read. My gf will microdose and I will return her experiences to the community.

Certain things are true of many psychedelics though, having impacts on GDNF function, Serotonin, dopamine and many many other receptors, even when taking at sub perceptual doses.

One could say, eating broccoli once would not necessarily lead to feelings of good health or manifestations of it within the body. But eating broccoli every day, having a cumulative effect, would undoubtedly lead to improved physical health and/or function. Could the same be Said for micro dosing psychedelics?

 

[null24]

What is a low dose compared to microdose of psilocybin in your case?

Probably half a dried gram to 3/4g.

There are definitely positive and negative here I guess depending on how you look at it. Commodification of pyschedelics is a bit uncomfortable but most interactions of this nature whether it be with therapist, psychiatrist, or even religious figure are exchanges ultimately. That being said I do think some of this is being hyped for quick money and that is a shame. I have no interest in expensive psychedelic treatments. I can see how that might work for some people though.

If it's what folks want to do, fine. I just support full decriminalization, so I don't have to worry out in the field and can hunt freely to my heart's delight.

I remember voting DOWN multiple cannabis legalization bills, for years and years, before one was crafted that I could attach my name to. Now I have access to cheap, plentiful, high quality weed, right next to the convenience store and no more hassle to acquire than a pack of ciggarettes- and often way less expensive. And no only does it work for me, but thousands of middle wage workers have entered into a new industry that is helping create a gigantic new revenue stream for my state. It is a win-win, not a victory for a few. Placed into the hands of exclusive distributors in a closed private system, this will not happen, and mushrooms will be just as much a risk for me as they have always been, placing very little cash into the state coffers while those with the financial resources to be able to go to a private clinic will have exclusive rights to partake legally. Not cool, IMO.

It seems to me that many of those promoting this bill and concept are quite new to taking psychedelics, having accesed them only after having acheived their financial independance, and are trying to fix the problems caused by doing so. Those of us who included psychs as part of their lives for a good chunk of it are kind of left out.

 

[Tony6Strings]

I feel like microdosing is just another 21st century fad. I've never tried it myself. I enjoy a plentiful dose when I do choose to partake. My intuition tells me that a fully entheogenic dose has way more therapeutic value than microdosing.

 

[burnt]

In terms of psychoactivity, the only thing I had noticed was a profound anxiolytic effect, incredibly hard to describe but people with anxiety may be able to relate.

Your explanation make sense. Thanks for sharing.

One could say, eating broccoli once would not necessarily lead to feelings of good health or manifestations of it within the body. But eating broccoli every day, having a cumulative effect, would undoubtedly lead to improved physical health and/or function. Could the same be Said for micro dosing psychedelics?

Yea I think its possible. That's why I'm a bit curious about dosage. Clearly there is the psychedelic effects at certain dosage. But what other physiological changes happen at low repeated doses I guess is what I'm curious about. Don't think this has really been researched much yet though..

Probably half a dried gram to 3/4g.

I would definitely feel that with no tolerance. How quickly do you find tolerance of psychedelic effects build? Do other noticeable physiological effects remain? I always get flushed a bit from mushrooms for example so that is a noticeable thing even at low doses. Not sure if that would go away with repeated dosing though.

My intuition tells me that a fully entheogenic dose has way more therapeutic value than microdosing.

Same. Although I can definitely get a positive mood or attitude shift from low dose psychedelic but its still a dose that I feel. I'd say more intense / transformative experiences tend to have more long lasting impact though in my experience.

 

[VibeSurfer]

I can see quite a few benefits and uses. For a lot of people, microdosing lsd or mushrooms can be a huge driver for ambition and creativity without having to have a full dose. These substances can still inspire positive thinking, benefit your social skills and communication, and boost your work ethic for anyone who wouldn't want to take a full dose or can't accommodate tripping into their schedule. People like it as an alternative to less clean substances like coffee or adderall.

 

[fathomlessness]

There's a different kind of benefit that microdosing mushrooms gives to full dosing. Obviously full doses spread its effects more profoundly over a much larger time frame but for many peoples lives this isn't feasible, be it work, kids, you name it.

Many people refer to small doses as microdosing (which it technically isn't) a small dose or macrodose would be anywhere from 200-500mg of cubes i would say (level 1 trip starts at 750mg). 100mg being threshold effects on average but some people feel differently. The idea is to let it alter the the way your brain operates beyond your comprehension of a drug effect, and yes, psilocybin can definitely module neurotransmission at doses of 100mg.

It's also beneficial because tolerance doesn't really exist at those ranges (50-150mg or so). Even with smaller doses like 200mg it can be quite easy to even get noticeable effects day after day without tolerance issue.

Most reports say that it ends up taking a toll on their energy levels and they eventually stop. Serotonergics disrupt sleep to some degree as serotonin receptors play a major role in sleep. Even at smaller doses, i don't sleep as great or dream as much as I would without taking anything. Sleep is important for feeling healthy and positive throughout the day, which is exactly the aim of microdosing, so it can kind of defeat its own purpose after a while.

 

[burnt]

I can see quite a few benefits and uses. For a lot of people, microdosing lsd or mushrooms can be a huge driver for ambition and creativity without having to have a full dose. These substances can still inspire positive thinking, benefit your social skills and communication, and boost your work ethic for anyone who wouldn't want to take a full dose or can't accommodate tripping into their schedule. People like it as an alternative to less clean substances like coffee or adderall.

I certainly find low doses useful for this. By low dose I would say 0.5 gram mushroom and lsd maybe 25-50 ug. I guess that would be higher then what one would consider a microdose though?

Many people refer to small doses as microdosing (which it technically isn't) a small dose or macrodose would be anywhere from 200-500mg of cubes i would say (level 1 trip starts at 750mg). 100mg being threshold effects on average but some people feel differently. The idea is to let it alter the the way your brain operates beyond your comprehension of a drug effect, and yes, psilocybin can definitely module neurotransmission at doses of 100mg.

Thanks for dosing explanation on the mushrooms low dose compared to microdose. Sounds about right although I haven't taken controlled low doses of mushrooms in long time, anytime recent has been estimated. I guess I wonder what kind of effects psilocybin really has at 100 mg or less? Might just have to try.

It's also beneficial because tolerance doesn't really exist at those ranges (50-150mg or so). Even with smaller doses like 200mg it can be quite easy to even get noticeable effects day after day without tolerance issue.

Interesting I never heard about the lack of tolerance building. I guess I wonder how would one ascertain tolerance if effects are sub-perceptual?

Most reports say that it ends up taking a toll on their energy levels and they eventually stop. Serotonergics disrupt sleep to some degree as serotonin receptors play a major role in sleep. Even at smaller doses, i don't sleep as great or dream as much as I would without taking anything. Sleep is important for feeling healthy and positive throughout the day, which is exactly the aim of microdosing, so it can kind of defeat its own purpose after a while.

Never heard of this either thanks interesting. Definitely these substances at low to full doses make sleep harder. Guess its so with microdoses as well. Any other side-effects you hear about?

 

[Jozeh]

Any other side-effects you hear about?

A fellow nexian recently alerted me to the following:

Why Chronic Microdosing Might Break Your Heart

While there has been very promising evidence of safety and effectiveness for psychedelics after a few acute macrodoses in clinical trials, the risks and benefits of chronic microdosing still remain

chacruna.net

Psychedelics and 5HT2B cardiotoxicity - Science - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus