highwire
Rising Star
I drink kava one to three times per week, so I've been wondering...
How long should someone wait between taking an MAO-B inhibiting plant-like Kava Kava before taking an MAO-A inhibiting plant (B. Caapi and Syrian Rue being the primary examples)? How about Caapi/Rue before Kava Kava?
I didn't include passionflower above, just because its mao inhibition seems to be very weak in comparison to rue/caapi. Still, it doesn't hurt to mention it.
Kava inhibits MAO-B. Some reports and discussions indicate that the combination of Kava with Ayahuasca is not a good idea. Results could include serotonin syndrome and all the joys that come along with it, like dying.
wiki.dmt-nexus.me
The thread below mentions that this is likely because of a combination of harmalas and kavalactones, which would inhibit both MAO-A and MAO-B. So that would be the potential cause of serotonin syndrome, yeah?
Kava extracts have been shown to bring about MAO-B inhibition in the brains of mice (cortex and substantia nigra) in doses as low as 10mg/kg. Assuming that this is a very pure extract, it might mimic the equivalent of about 10mg of pure kavalactones. These kavalactones seem to be the primary ingredient responsible for MAO-inhibition.
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
I've found a few sources mentioning that one gram of Kava contains, on average, 100mg of pure kavalactones (10% of the dry weight).
"Peak levels occur (for kavain [the primary kavalactone]) at 1.8 hours with an elimination halflife of approximately 9 hours and distribution halflife of 50 minutes."
www.reliasmedia.com
The average amount of kavalactone mg per dose is suggested to be about 300mg (about 3g of standard kava powders). 300mg vs. the average human weight, approximately 62 kg… about 5mg/kg. 5mg vs. the 10 mg/kg shown to activate MAO-B inhibition in mice… so it's plausible that even one average dose could have significant interaction with MAO-A inhibiting plants. Important to note that the study does not indicate that lower amounts were inactive. Instead, 10mg/kg was the lowest amount of kava extract tested.
With a two-hour time to peak and a 9-hour elimination halflife, we're down to 150mg at 11 hours, 75mg at 20 hours, 19mg at 38 hours (0.3mg/kg at this point). So that's approximately 38 hours per 3g (one average dose of Kava) until you're looking at near-complete elimination. 47 hours with a 6g dose (19mg ~ 0.3mg/kg approx). 56 hours for 9g (900mg ~ three servings) to reach 14mg (0.2mg/kg).
If similar mg/kg rates apply to mice and humans, and if my math is on point...
The approximate wait between taking Kava and then MAO-A inhibitors (B. caapi, Syrian rue):
38 hours for one 3g dose, + an additional 9 hours for each additional 3g serving before taking an MAO-A inhibitor.
This is my best guess, and of course, there would need to be more research to confirm this. Suppose your bodyweight is really far from the average of 62kg. In that case, it might be helpful to just figure out your own timeline.
The following source simplified my research for the reverse scenario (caapi or rue before Kava):
"The harmala alkaloids interfere with the protective enzyme MAO for 3–6 hours, before their action is reversed and MAO activity restricted." Let's be safe and assume that this timing probably comes with a 30-minute to a 90-minute peak time when ingested orally...
Approximate wait between taking B. Caapi/Rue and then taking Kava:
4-7.5 hours
Unfortunately, I couldn't find equivalent research for Kava that states how long the MAO inhibition lasts. So, I chose to go the safe route and use the halflife of that primary MAO-inhibiting compound (kavain) as a guideline.
--
Let me know about any corrections and first-hand experiences. Extra mention that a lot of this is guesswork. In reality, the longer you wait between taking different plants/compounds that are not proven to be safe in combination, the more likely you are to eliminate bad reactions.
How long should someone wait between taking an MAO-B inhibiting plant-like Kava Kava before taking an MAO-A inhibiting plant (B. Caapi and Syrian Rue being the primary examples)? How about Caapi/Rue before Kava Kava?
I didn't include passionflower above, just because its mao inhibition seems to be very weak in comparison to rue/caapi. Still, it doesn't hurt to mention it.
Kava inhibits MAO-B. Some reports and discussions indicate that the combination of Kava with Ayahuasca is not a good idea. Results could include serotonin syndrome and all the joys that come along with it, like dying.
Known substance-interactions and their effects - DMT-Nexus Wiki
The thread below mentions that this is likely because of a combination of harmalas and kavalactones, which would inhibit both MAO-A and MAO-B. So that would be the potential cause of serotonin syndrome, yeah?
Kava extracts have been shown to bring about MAO-B inhibition in the brains of mice (cortex and substantia nigra) in doses as low as 10mg/kg. Assuming that this is a very pure extract, it might mimic the equivalent of about 10mg of pure kavalactones. These kavalactones seem to be the primary ingredient responsible for MAO-inhibition.
Monoamine Oxidase Inhibition by Kavalactones from Kava (Piper Methysticum) - PubMed
Monoamine oxidases (MAOs) are key metabolic enzymes for neurotransmitter and dietary amines and are targets for the treatment of neuropsychiatric and neurodegenerative disorders. This study examined the MAO inhibition potential of kavain and other kavalactones from the roots of kava (<i>Piper...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
I've found a few sources mentioning that one gram of Kava contains, on average, 100mg of pure kavalactones (10% of the dry weight).
Kava Kava Dosage Guide at Entheology.com
What is a usual and safe Kava Kava dosage? We answer that question in detail here at Entheology.com to help give you a safe path to Kava consumption.
entheology.com
"Peak levels occur (for kavain [the primary kavalactone]) at 1.8 hours with an elimination halflife of approximately 9 hours and distribution halflife of 50 minutes."
Kava: Piper methysticum | 2007-05-01 | AHC Media: Continuing Medical…
Lee R. Kava: Piper methysticum. Altern Med Alert 2007;10(5):49-55.
www.reliasmedia.com
The average amount of kavalactone mg per dose is suggested to be about 300mg (about 3g of standard kava powders). 300mg vs. the average human weight, approximately 62 kg… about 5mg/kg. 5mg vs. the 10 mg/kg shown to activate MAO-B inhibition in mice… so it's plausible that even one average dose could have significant interaction with MAO-A inhibiting plants. Important to note that the study does not indicate that lower amounts were inactive. Instead, 10mg/kg was the lowest amount of kava extract tested.
With a two-hour time to peak and a 9-hour elimination halflife, we're down to 150mg at 11 hours, 75mg at 20 hours, 19mg at 38 hours (0.3mg/kg at this point). So that's approximately 38 hours per 3g (one average dose of Kava) until you're looking at near-complete elimination. 47 hours with a 6g dose (19mg ~ 0.3mg/kg approx). 56 hours for 9g (900mg ~ three servings) to reach 14mg (0.2mg/kg).
If similar mg/kg rates apply to mice and humans, and if my math is on point...
The approximate wait between taking Kava and then MAO-A inhibitors (B. caapi, Syrian rue):
38 hours for one 3g dose, + an additional 9 hours for each additional 3g serving before taking an MAO-A inhibitor.
This is my best guess, and of course, there would need to be more research to confirm this. Suppose your bodyweight is really far from the average of 62kg. In that case, it might be helpful to just figure out your own timeline.
The following source simplified my research for the reverse scenario (caapi or rue before Kava):
"The harmala alkaloids interfere with the protective enzyme MAO for 3–6 hours, before their action is reversed and MAO activity restricted." Let's be safe and assume that this timing probably comes with a 30-minute to a 90-minute peak time when ingested orally...
Approximate wait between taking B. Caapi/Rue and then taking Kava:
4-7.5 hours
Unfortunately, I couldn't find equivalent research for Kava that states how long the MAO inhibition lasts. So, I chose to go the safe route and use the halflife of that primary MAO-inhibiting compound (kavain) as a guideline.
--
Let me know about any corrections and first-hand experiences. Extra mention that a lot of this is guesswork. In reality, the longer you wait between taking different plants/compounds that are not proven to be safe in combination, the more likely you are to eliminate bad reactions.
