My Angry Rant Du Jour

[jbark]

Ya wrote:

everyone else here has the right to continue giving their advice.Exclamation

Even if that advice is dangerous, ya? even if it's impossible to know to whom you are giving the advice?

On matters of mental health, I'd like to hear anyone propose a safe, sane and responsible alternative to seeking professional help. Easy to say ignore the medical community, they are charlatans, but what alternative is being put on the table? I have seen no reasonable one so far.

In the absence of one, I believe encouraging professional therapy should be the de facto advice.

I think it was Churchill (could be misquoting) who said that democracy is a terrible system, but it's the best one we've got. The same may be said of the current state of medical science.
cheers,
JBArk

 

[Bill Cipher]

Pandora,

I actually don't think this was such an angry rant, to be perfectly honest; I named the thread that because I was sure it would be seen as such by a few. I didn't expect you to be one of them, though, and your response is a little disappointing. Regardless, I've always liked you much and I value your contributions. I think you're on the wrong side of this fight (to the extent that's what we're doing), but my intention isn't to stifle your voice. My only concern here is safety.

Ya,

I have no doubt whatsoever that your fears of being "unjustly" diagnosed and institutionalized against your will are exceedingly well founded. I won't ever be engaging you in any kind of debate, but feel free to get your crazy on.

 

[gibran2]

There seems to be a bit of a debate here regarding conventional medicine vs. alternative therapies. But this isn’t the real issue.

The reason that we should avoid giving advice regarding such matters (other than the fact that most if not all of us are unqualified to give such advice) is that we don’t know the medical/psychological history of other forum members.

Both alternative and conventional practitioners evaluate their patients prior to rendering a diagnosis. And a proper diagnosis is necessary before advice regarding treatment can be responsibly offered.

A forum such as the Nexus is a great place for people to meet and discuss a wide range of issues, but it’s just not possible for a concerned person to diagnose and offer treatment options to someone else after exchanging a few posts on an internet forum.

As members of this forum we have rights and responsibilities. And responsible forum members will not offer diagnosis and treatment of medical/psychological problems on the basis of a few posts.

 

[Dorge]

As members of this forum we have rights and responsibilities. And responsible forum members will not offer diagnosis and treatment of medical/psychological problems on the basis of a few posts.

Questions....

Who in their right mind would come to a forum like this seeking medical advice?
Even if they did come here seeking medical advice how is it any different then talking to a bunch of other folks that know a lot of some about a subject giving just their opinions and some advice.
people will and can say what ever they like... if I tell you to staple your eyes shut and you do it... well who is really to blame in the end? was I irresponsible in telling you to staple your eyes shut. perhaps... but the blame does not fall on me legally, because your the one that did it. I am just some person online and have not way to show that my opinion really matters worth a shit.

Lets say that there is a forum member who is mentally ill or really really naive or just plain dumb and there is a forum member who is really convincing and gives some one bad advice, or misguides or misleads them... a simple caveat for the forum would be enough to cover any ones asses. if you give out advice, taker of the advice beware... This is the internet even if i say im a doctor i cant prove it too you, and nor would that be advisable on a forum covering this subject.
But I see no problem with people who are just TALKING talking about what they would do, or have done, or their opinion when it comes to medical advice. but honestly any one that goes to this forum for medical advice is a fool, and gets what they have coming to them. if they are not a fool and they are mentally ill, then this is what happens...
they take some ones advice and it either works out for them or it doesnt. if it doesnt then there may be harm... but whos responsibility is the action of a person whos ability to make rational decisions is compromised? its not you, and its not really a medical professionals either. We as a society protect our selves and those individuals from harm when their ability to make safe decisions is compromised. but we dont prevent people from giving each other advice, guidance, or suggestions and recommendations, who are jsut laymen and are not charging any one for it. Society steps in when people are charging other people to make suggestions, recommendations and giving medicinal advice because those people are charging money for it.

No one here on this forum is charging money to give any one here advice, or recommendations, and so as it is in the rest of (at lest american society) society there is nothing wrong with someone giving advice or recommendations in regards to medical treatment or care, there is no law against it and there is no reason to censor any one from doing so as long as they arent charging to do it here. Which is not going to happen.
What one can do though is tell people you disagree with them or post a bit on the forum itself that says that any one seeking medical advice off the internet is a moron.

The one thing that really sucks about the ayahuasca forum is that the MODs are way to involved and have their fingers in everything that happens there. its a really controlling environment. The more rules a society has the more rules that have to be enforced. AND as always if you trade in your liberty for security you loose both. Probably the only thing i agree with rednecks about.

 

[jbark]

Well said Gibran2. I believe you hit the nail on the head. Telling people they're on the right track, smoke a bowl etc. IS diagnosing and suggesting a form of treatment, but the underlying sentiment behind Art's point (and one that I espouse) is that we are NOT qualified to give any advice, particularly online with very little information (as you point out), and as such, the ONLY responsible course of action is to recommend seeking someone who is thus qualified. I'd like to say that the disagreement here is in the nature of that "someone", but all I am reading are simple and ill-defended attacks on mental health workers and the system in general, which is at best hardly productive, and at worst dangerous.

Again I implore - what is the alternative? i am open...

JBArk

 

[obliguhl]

@jbark

You say:

You can use your better judgment, but if that judgment leads you to advocate dismissing an option that has genuinely and effectively helped millions

I said:

Sure i'd take neuroleptic "medicine" before I kill myself because of voices I hear.
But i'd also amputate my foot in case of sepsis.

So i don't know how you come to think i'm dismissing an option.

I will go one step further: yours is a personal bias (shared by many here)that is dangerous by virtue of exclusion; Art is not saying not to seek the help of a shaman, he is simply not excluding (and admittedly showing a marked preference for) giving advice that will lead people to seek out trained help in an institutionalized and regulated environment

Wrong, he said:

I would really like to see a blanket policy come into effect that WE NOT DISPENSE ANTI-MEDICAL OR MENTAL HEALTH ADVICE, EVER.

Besides, Shamanic practice is in no way "anti medical" and telling someone to seek professionell health IS health advice. So this proposal is faulty in every way.

giving harmful advice to desperate individuals like: smoke more spice, there's nothing wrong with you, you don't need to do anything - you're on the right track, it's part of the healing process

Sadly, you're missing a part of the picture that makes this community so great. Lots of so called mental health problems have their cause in mistreatment by fellow humans. It's my firm belief, that emotional support and love is essential to any healing. Psychs can open some doors and it can be hard to integrate the experiences into everyday life because we life in such a hateful society. But psychs are not the cause: Hate is. So giving back to beloved members certainly IS healing. Moreover, working with psychs DOES MEAN, that you are beeing confrontated with difficult situations...and yes, sometimes things have to get worse till they get better.

@Dorge

No one here on this forum is charging money to give any one here advice, or recommendations, and so as it is in the rest of (at lest american society) society there is nothing wrong with someone giving advice or recommendations in regards to medical treatment or care, there is no law against it and there is no reason to censor any one from doing so as long as they arent charging to do it here.

And: Noone here presents such an advise as fact value while many doctors DO..and in the end, many of them don't know shit about the psychedelic experience and how much it can mean.

 

[Dorge]

SWIM is a mental health worker that understands and knows how much the entheogenic experience can mean... and you know what... you would be surprised how many mental health workers do entheogens and have pretty far out spiritual practices.

 

[jbark]

Dorge wrote:

Who in their right mind would come to a forum like this seeking medical advice?
Even if they did come here seeking medical advice how is it any different then talking to a bunch of other folks that know a lot of some about a subject giving just their opinions and some advice.
people will and can say what ever they like... if I tell you to staple your eyes shut and you do it... well who is really to blame in the end? was I irresponsible in telling you to staple your eyes shut. perhaps... but the blame does not fall on me legally, because your the one that did it. I am just some person online and have not way to show that my opinion really matters worth a shit.

Way to absolve yourself of responsibility Dorge. I am new here, but one of the strengths of this forum is that it feels like a "community", the members of which do care and accept responsibility for what they write. You write something flippant, and a desperate someone who was just looking for help kills themselves - legally, you're off the hook, but ethically? could you live with yourself? not me....

and I think you missed the point. if someone comes to a forum seeking mental health advice, it is BECAUSE they are not "in their right mind", by sheer definition. And I feel an ethical, if not legal, resposibility to take them seriously and encourage them to seek help I cannot personally and adequately give.

 

[obliguhl]

That's good to hear Dorge, but I will repeat my question: How is one supposed to find such a person without beeing declared as crazy over and over again?

 

[clouds]

That's good to hear Dorge, but I will repeat my question: How is one supposed to find such a person without beeing declared as crazy over and over again?

Maybe that someone should try to find a psychologist who is specialized in Transpersonal Psychology.
Probably with studies and education in schools like ITP or CIIS.

These professionals actually think that the psychedelic experiences can be important in life and provide integral help and advice.

P.S. There is a centre in the UK also.

 

[jbark]

obliguhl wrote:

Quote:
I will go one step further: yours is a personal bias (shared by many here)that is dangerous by virtue of exclusion; Art is not saying not to seek the help of a shaman, he is simply not excluding (and admittedly showing a marked preference for) giving advice that will lead people to seek out trained help in an institutionalized and regulated environment


Wrong, he said:

Quote:
I would really like to see a blanket policy come into effect that WE NOT DISPENSE ANTI-MEDICAL OR MENTAL HEALTH ADVICE, EVER.

I stand corrected. sort of. I expressed myself badly. Telling someone humbly that you are not qualified and that they should seek professional help, in my opinion, is not mental health advice per se. And if you think it is, you're splitting hairs. If I tell someone I am not qualified to fix their engine and that they should consult a mechanic, I am clearly NOT giving them mechanical advice. But telling someone they don't need a mechanic to fix their engine, however, presupposes that you know better, and are more qualified, than the mechanic.

Just as telling someone NOT to seek professional help presupposes that you ARE qualified to give that sort of advice. And is thus mental health advice, and clearly "anti-medical".

hope I cleared up my point
JBArk

 

[obliguhl]

Thanks clouds!

I am not qualified to fix their engine and that they should consult a mechanic

Whats the difference between recommending a shaman over a psychiatrist? I also don't think that this issue can be covered with one bold answer. Every situation is unique and I definatly agree that we should be careful everytime we are giving advice. Everyone got different levels of knowlede and he or she must be able to judge him or herself honestly. But I trust that nexians do that. And if not ..there is always the recipient who shares a part of the accountability.

 

[Dorge]

Dorge wrote:

Way to absolve yourself of responsibility Dorge. I am new here, but one of the strengths of this forum is that it feels like a "community", the members of which do care and accept responsibility for what they write. You write something flippant, and a desperate someone who was just looking for help kills themselves - legally, you're off the hook, but ethically? could you live with yourself? not me....

and I think you missed the point. if someone comes to a forum seeking mental health advice, it is BECAUSE they are not "in their right mind", by sheer definition. And I feel an ethical, if not legal, resposibility to take them seriously and encourage them to seek help I cannot personally and adequately give.

i love being called flippant and irresponsible... lol

so lets say you say something to some one who is "not in their right mind" as you put it... and some one kills themselves if you take on the responsibility that you caused that to happen you are giving yourself way to much credit. are you responsible for their neurophysiology? yes your responsible for what you say to a person but what they do with what you say to this person as just some dude on the interweb, even if they are not in their right mind as you put it, is not your responsibility.

"resposibility to take them seriously and encourage them to seek help I cannot personally and adequately give."

you have the right to take on that responsibility if you wish, and it is my suggestion that the forum just has that caveat on the forum. Any one giving or receiving any medical advice on an internet forum is not in their right mind. lol

I think people take them selves way to seriously on forums dont you?

"How is one supposed to find such a person without being declared as crazy over and over again?"

Well honestly good luck. You might not. This work is taboo! Its outlawed and if you talk about it working int he mental health field you could loose your job. Regardless if you took an entheogen and you had a drug induced psychotic break you might need help, and you might need medication for awhile. there is nothing wrong with a lot of these new anti-psychotics honestly SWIMS seen them really give people their lives back. A lot of people are not actually having this amazing shamanic break through, they are actually psychotic and need some help.
The mystic swims in the seas the psychotic drowns in. if your not swimming your drowning... and medical treatment can be very helpful. you might be crazy... and you might need to just realize that. lol

 

[jbark]

The difference, obliguhl, is that I could tell you I am a shaman. I am not. Art could tell you he is a shaman. you could tell me you are one. Some dope in the amazon looking to make some coin could say he is a shaman. And have his whole family, hell his whole village back him up knowing the revenue it will generate for the community. THAT'S the difference. And it makes all the difference.

Regulating bodies are not infallible, but the absence of one means anyone can make claims to be qualified.

I'm not saying there aren't real bona fide shamans. I am just asking how the hell you know? How do you truly verify someone's shamanic qualifications?

food for thought.
JBArk

 

[jbark]

Dorge, please - I didn't (and wouldn't!) call you flippant. I used an example and you are extrapolating it to yourself. And I didn't call you irresponsible, cause you haven't (to my knowledge) given the nature of advice i am referring to. I only said that what you are advocating, in my opinion, is irresponsible. And there is a semantic difference between acting responsibly and accepting responsibility. The person in my example may have acted irresponsibly but cannot accept RESPONSIBILITY for the outcome. I thought the difference clear, so i didn't elaborate.

Sorry for any confusion. And for the record, I would never resort to name-calling (except to defend myself against the same!)
JBArk

 

[Dorge]

Thanks clouds!

I am not qualified to fix their engine and that they should consult a mechanic

Whats the difference between recommending a shaman over a psychiatrist? I also don't think that this issue can be covered with one bold answer. Every situation is unique and I definatly agree that we should be careful everytime we are giving advice. Everyone got different levels of knowlede and he or she must be able to judge him or herself honestly. But I trust that nexians do that. And if not ..there is always the recipient who shares a part of the accountability.

you know whats interesting? in a lot of cultures where shamanry is still being widely practiced along side or within modern culture, such as in nepal and south america, tuva, northern asia all over the place... shamans have even started workign in hospitals along side doctors. Many shamans will recommend a doctor too. A lot of shamans treat and know the difference between a "magically or spiritually" induced illness and a physical illness coming from natural causes, now that modern medicine is more accessible around the world the cultures that have shamans still see that its just plain easier to have the doctor do it and the shamans happy to work with them as healers and vice versa. Both seem to know when the other would be better suited to help.

 

[Dorge]

T
I'm not saying there aren't real bona fide shamans. I am just asking how the hell you know? How do you truly verify someone's shamanic qualifications?

thats funny... in a lot of cultures people are just born shamans... or just suddenly become one... if some one said ow well the spirit of that hill over there came and dragged me into it and told me a that I was a healer now, I guess thats my qualification you would see that and say ok, sure sounds good to me. but thats exactly how it goes a lot of time in animist societies. Qualifications dont seem to mean shit... but results do.


thanks for the clarification previously jbark.

I do not see that what I am advocating is irresponsible however. What I am trying to clarify for you from the point of view of some one that does work in medicine, is that your taking on to much responsibility here for what people do.

This whole thread is IMHO an example of how internet forums tend to take themselves to seriously.

keeping that in mind...
SWIm thinks that the nexus should have this caveat in its rules and guidelines...

"There are no rules regarding people giving or receiving advice for anything including medical advice, but for those that come here seeking medical advice off of an internet forum, know that only someone not in their right mind would seek medical advice on an internet forum! keeping that in mind if you are seeking medical advice on an internet forum seek professional help immediately because you are not in your right mind."

LMFAO...

 

[Ya]

Art, it is truly disappointing to see once again, when someone doesn't agree with your beliefs, the rude name-calling.

Many people do this, when their opinion is safely aligned with the majority, they feel they can be rude to the minority.

Even if you carry the same collection of beliefs as the majority, name-calling and belief-enforcing are not right actions.

Even though such actions are wrong, you have the right to continue, since you have not physically hurt anyone here.

Yet I wonder, have you done any real physical "ass-kicking" harm to people in real life who disagree with your beliefs?

The main point here is you started a thread seriously hoping that your belief-system would become an enforced-policy.

Some people do agree with your proposed advice-police-policy, they think that they can decide what advice is best.

Other people do NOT agree with your proposed advice-police-policy, we think each can choose what advice is best.

 

[jbark]

thats funny... in a lot of cultures people are just born shamans... or just suddenly become one... if some one said ow well the spirit of that hill over there came and dragged me into it and told me a that I was a healer now, I guess thats my qualification you would see that and say ok, sure sounds good to me. but thats exactly how it goes a lot of time in animist societies. Qualifications dont seem to mean shit... but results do.

That was my point. There are bona fide shamans. But I think we must agree that there are a lot of pretenders. A LOT. And without being born in the village the shaman was born into, how do you know? And what about the hordes of neo-shaman north americans and europeans who profess membership to this elite group? Some MAY be shamans (I would never deign to say that this is the exclusive domain of a few select cultures), but I reiterate my reiteration - how do you know? With certainty. or do you just shop around your mental illness through 20 pretenders before you fall on one bona fide shaman?

At least in the medical community you know they are REAL doctors who have undergone rigorous training and have been examined and scrutinized by groups of international peers before being admitted into the profession. Don't get me wrong. There are plenty of incompetent doctors. But they are indisputably doctors.

Some guy who partied on the festival circuit pretty hard, claims to have had a kundalini awakening and professes to be a shaman and treats people with aya in his inner city apartment with invented incantations and burning herbs he ordered from some site, imo, is a mockery of the whole idea of shamanism. (real life example btw). Just too damn easy to say you're one and have lots of people believe you. That's my point.

If someone tells you they are a surgeon and offers to perform open heart surgery in the comfort of his slick bachelor's pad, what are you gonna say? Bet you'll be the first to demand proof of his credentials, if you don't first laugh in his face.

That's what I meant by how do you know...
JBArk

 

[Dorge]

I would not suggest most people with mental illness go to a shaman, and most shamans would suggest people with mental illness go to a doctor... though there are some cases where they would not and the mental illness is spiritual in nature, which i think is rare...

"Some MAY be shamans (I would never deign to say that this is the exclusive domain of a few select cultures)"

I am glad you say that! i think shamans are born in every part of the world.
But how do you know? By the results! In peru you can walk through a city and see a shop sign for a shaman, I even saw a shaman in a mall once. in the cultures that have shamans you go to the one who has the good reputation, that people believe in, thats helped a lot of folks. I think its pretty simple. You still dont know, but how much in life is certain any way?

"At least in the medical community you know they are REAL doctors who have undergone rigorous training and have been examined and scrutinized by groups of international peers before being admitted into the profession. Don't get me wrong. There are plenty of incompetent doctors. But they are indisputably doctors."

thats true... but still one can go see a shaman and a doctor in nepal, and they often work together. sooooo... i just dont see why this is such a point of contention.

"Some guy who partied on the festival circuit pretty hard, claims to have had a kundalini awakening and professes to be a shaman and treats people with aya in his inner city apartment with invented incantations and burning herbs he ordered from some site, imo, is a mockery of the whole idea of shamanism. (real life example btw). Just too damn easy to say you're one and have lots of people believe you. That's my point."

wow you sound really judgmental! notice I said sound not are judgmental...
Who is to say that this guy is not a shaman! Or that he did not have a kundalini awakening? the question is the same for people in societies that have shamans... Is he effective? Is he able to heal people, help people? Is he a good spiritual leader for people? My question is always well is he an animist... if hes not an animist then hes not a shaman... but thats another point entirely and would rather not get into those details.
But if the answer to those questions is yes well shit! Whats the problem!

"If someone tells you they are a surgeon and offers to perform open heart surgery in the comfort of his slick bachelor's pad, what are you gonna say? Bet you'll be the first to demand proof of his credentials, if you don't first laugh in his face."

Your funny! So... your in the outback, and you meet an aboriginal clever man... he tells you that hes a clever man ie shaman, and you say where is your credentials? He might just be full of shit who knows! he tells you that the spirit of that water hole over there pulled him in one day took out his heart and replaced it with a quartz crystal. And told him he was a clever man now and had to go and heal people. how is that going to work for ya?
Are you going to then say... hey I need at least a peer reviewed document stating that at least 5 of the other spirits in the area acknowledge the efficacy of this water hole spirits ability to make you a shaman? LMFAO!

Listen to you heart... deep down we know.. we always know... but some folks sounds like your one of them doesnt know how to trust that... and if you dont know... well how go see a doctor. lol i dont know what else to tell ya!

When I was last in peru I only met one curandero I would work with and trusted... its an intuitive thing. i would rather get treated by a shaman for most of my ailments then a doctor and I do actually! it works out pretty well! I dont think most doctors are very wholistic. I do go see doctors for certain things. bone injuries ect... most things though i think a good curandero can take care of. If they are not harner method shamans though... those guys are such a joke... lol