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My Angry Rant Du Jour

Migrated topic.
Art, there are doctors here (Corpus Callosum for example, not sure if psychiatrist though, maybe others too) and a few psychologists too, me included (not clinical though :p), but I think thats not even the point and it doesnt matter because in either case one couldnt and shouldnt diagnose/treat anybody over the internet, its just not ethical (nor possible)

Even though a health professional might have more substance to their answers, still it wouldnt be responsible to give any advice with certainty simply because we're just reading words on a screen, and with medical/psychiatric/psychological issues, the fine details and symptoms you only see when physically present are essential to really be able to say something reliable about a treatment.

So again, I think we need good sense with this, and if anybody sees others giving straight advice to someone about quitting their treatments or whatever, this is way out of line, but if its small suggestions/feedback to complement the person's views, and all advice is given with disclaimers and that it is always mentioned that any changes to treatment should be discussed with face-to-face doctor, I think thats fine.

By the way art, I agree that sentence doesnt sound good. Do you think taking out the "automatically" already helps? or how would you re-phrase that? (sorry if this is work you already done before)
 
Uncle Knucles said:
What I'm saying is that we can no longer afford to take these risks with others. Conversations in theory about alternate medicine are fine. Concrete advice to avoid medical treatment in favor of bath salts and psychedelics - NOT OKAY. NOT EVER OKAY.
Our fascination doesn't make us anything but fascinated. We don't make these kinds of determinations about whether or not it's appropriate that people stay on their medication. If we do, we are culpable, and I just won't be a part of it. This is something we need to clarify unequivocally going forward. There is zero room for touchy feely compromise, in my opinion.
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I absolutely agree with Art... thank you Art for a clear statement and your efforts writing the guides/FAQ.
Shared personal experiences with healing and overcoming adversity, as well as emotional support, is a valuable feature of the Nexus, but this does not extend to medical crisis counseling, nor does it substitute for person-to-person help offered by loved ones and professionals when needed.

tobecomeone00 - you are out of line - do not antagonize folks here - rather, take the time to evaluate whether your posts help
 
I agree, to a degree. Noone here really knows what was going on here..people commit suicide for many reasons all the time, and while it's great to think that there is something we can do to prevent it(and should try to) it doesnt always work out that way. I think personal opinions should be ok in reguards to health etc, but people should always be encouraged to make choices for themselves and get other opinions. I think it's quite obvious by now how I feel about the pharma industry and allopathic medicine in general, and when people ask advice I tend to feel I owe it to them to tell them what I had to go through dealing with all of that. I wont tell anyone not to get professional help though, noone should be telling people not to see a doctor. That kind of thing is a personal decision and people should be encouraged to make up they're own minds. So no I am not for the idea that we cant give people our personal opinions based on our experience in the way it pertains to us, but that is different than telling somewhat what to do or not to do. Giving people options is one thing, taking them away is another.
 
Trickster said:
And how about dosages of various substances, e.g. moclobemide? Am I supposed to ask my doctor how much should I take for proper inhibition?
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Absolutely! :d

Those are the people that are qualified to dispense such advice.
 
If one is a medical doctor, a nurse or a clinical psychologist it is unethical to give psycho-pharmacological advice on an Internet forum. In any case, I have to admit that I don't know if it makes me an hypocrite or what since I am not trying to precisely learn how to make chocolates cookies in this forum. Anyway... Charles Darwin and stuff.
 
clouds said:
Anyway... Charles Darwin and stuff.
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Okay... well, see... that's just fucking shameful.

This person was psychotic. He heard voices telling him to harm himself, and in the end that's just what he did. He's dead because of bad brain chemistry - not because he was stupid. There wasn't shit about this that was in the slightest bit "Darwinian" - other than some of the unconscionably stupid advice he received right here in our forum.
 
I had never seen that origional thread before about the electric jews, it seems to be an extreme case. I doubt anyone here could have helped. The last post in it was 2 years ago though, so are we certain that they're suicide is directly correlated to the problems outlined in that thread?

Either way, I dont think any real help could be given over the internet in that case. I personally dont feel that most psychiatrists would be much help either..It would be great if there was some way to directly put these people in touch with some kind of respectable transpersonal pschotherapists who are more understanding and knowledgeable in reguards to psychedelics. That would be a difficult thing to do though. I think that person seriousily needed some therapy with a decent psychotherapist who wouldnt just write them off as insane and drug them or lock them away.
 
Yeah frac I agree it would be good to be able to put people in trouble in contact with open minded doctors. Remember when Eranik had his psychological troubles? I tried contacting MAPS to find name of doctors in his country to help him out but they answered me back saying they dont know anyone in Iran. Gladly Eranik turned out fine in any case, and that problematic friend's advices of 'just accepting he is becoming a shaman and hearing real voices' wasnt followed.

I think it would be interesting to have a list of good doctors around the world, but Im not sure if such a list exist. Maybe we could try contacting MAPS again and asking if they have such a thing?
 
fractal enchantment said:
I agree, to a degree. Noone here really knows what was going on here..people commit suicide for many reasons all the time, and while it's great to think that there is something we can do to prevent it(and should try to) it doesnt always work out that way. I think personal opinions should be ok in reguards to health etc, but people should always be encouraged to make choices for themselves and get other opinions. I think it's quite obvious by now how I feel about the pharma industry and allopathic medicine in general, and when people ask advice I tend to feel I owe it to them to tell them what I had to go through dealing with all of that. I wont tell anyone not to get professional help though, noone should be telling people not to see a doctor. That kind of thing is a personal decision and people should be encouraged to make up they're own minds. So no I am not for the idea that we cant give people our personal opinions based on our experience in the way it pertains to us, but that is different than telling somewhat what to do or not to do. Giving people options is one thing, taking them away is another.
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Big pharma may suck. But those med's are not like vitaminpills. They're develloped for serious life or death situations.
In some cases you have to fight fire with fire and give some nasty med's to somebody if you want to save them.
In the case of vlad, it looked like he wasn't able to judge the seriousness of his situation himself anymore. His comments clearly showed that.
With serious mental illness, unfortunately you have to get worse before you can get better. And people who're realy lost are no longer capable to understand that. They can't think over the long term.
At the same time it clearly showed that he didn't receive the proper treatment either from the professionals. From his posts it became clear that the doctors didn't monitor him but just gave him some injections.
But yeah, art was definately right about this. People should not start a discussion on metaphysic's when it's more than obvious that someone is completely lost.
Nobody here should feel any guilt, because no-one here could have saved him with kind words or something. But it might have helped if more people REASONED with hime and would have advised to go see a shrink.
 
endlessness said:
Art, there are doctors here (Corpus Callosum for example, not sure if psychiatrist though, maybe others too) and a few psychologists too, me included (not clinical though :p), but I think thats not even the point and it doesnt matter because in either case one couldnt and shouldnt diagnose/treat anybody over the internet, its just not ethical.
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I would say that not only is it unethical to diagnose a condition over the internet, it is IMPOSSIBLE. I think that one can sum up the scruples of an individual on a somewhat superficial level via written conversations. However, there is absolutely no substitute for meeting a person to even have a chance about understanding a condition of mind ... never mind arriving at a diagnosis.

I can only speak for myself and my own experiences with and without psychedelics. I am skating away on the thin ice of each new day.

My opinion is that each of us are depending on the day. If someone is having a really bad time here, I think it is in the best interest of the Nexus community to encourage an individual to find a person that he can talk with face to face for help. It is not in our best interest to encourage a person having a hard time to take entheogens of any sort.
 
Uncle Knucles said:
The information was linked in Pandora's thread from Psychonaut.com.
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wtf? I am not a member of nor do I visit Psychonaut.com.


Uncle Knucles said:
Pandora - You are the one who is bringing this issue up for further discussion, but your point of view in that previous thread was very, very different. Your whole perspective (along with a great many others' here) was "oh, but we can't stifle the non-traditionalists...". Your posts from that thread have all disappeared, but you were clearly not at all pleased at the time with the idea of your own unique healing methods being somehow brought into question.
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Ummm, wtf?

I deleted a bunch of threads awhile back right before checking out from the Nexus AND consensual reality for a few months. I am the first one to admit this. I deleted them in order, if I remember correctly, most recent posts first, then going back in time, because back then you could search a user's threads (including your own) in chrono order for many more than 10 posts.

I mean maybe I'm wrong here, but I have no memory of deleting this particular thread. I am convinced that its' deletion was part of that group deletion I referenced above.

My own unique healing methods?!? wtf? I am no healer. I am no doctor. I am no therapist. I am no guide. I got nothing! I am a middle aged woman who has had some rather extreme and hectic life experiences that have taught me some personal lessons.

I do try to talk with folks and intervene when I can if a situation appears sketchy or dangerous or if the person is oozing suffering. Also, I do offer ideas for things. This is not diagnosing over the internet - those who observe me closely often see me suggest maybe professional help is best. But, when someone is confused about something I have direct experience with (e.g. how to treat a minor burn at home) I am going to share what information I have. I don't expect folks to follow it. They can take it or not. It's just more data, as I frequently say, just one woman's opinion. Acting in this manner is the way my mother brought me up, is, for me personally, a big part of being a human being.

I share experiences. I offer "advice" usually couched (at least these days) in very, very careful language about how this is only based on my own personal experience and/or witnessing or talking with folks. Frequently I claim (in chat) that I'm "pulling this out of my ass."

I've never claimed to be healer and if I ever do, I expect to be called to the carpet for it IMMEDIATELY. I admit to a swollen ego these days - I am really, really trying to work on this (It's related to ego death). This is all I can really do.
 
Wouldn't the Good Samaritan Law apply to this situation? If someone is genuinely trying to give their best advice, isn't that good enough? This is the internet. We can't make rules to protect people from themselves...especially on this forum. It would be nice to find a set of rules that would prevent someone from finding potentially harmful advise on Nexus, but wouldn't that drasticaly impair free exchange?

Suppose someone had a headache and got information from this site recommending an aspirin. Then suppose that person was allergic to aspirin (as many are) and died. Limiting that class of information would exclude a large percentage of Nexian posts.

If the Vlad story is true it's very sad, but even if you knew Vlad in real life, it's very hard to prevent someone from harming themselves. Protecting Vlad from information found on the internet seems like an impossible goal.
 
Uncle Knucles said:
This person was psychotic.
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We at this forum are neither qualified to give pharmacological treatment or give a valid diagnosis.

Also, we don't know who the fuck Vlad was or if he is really dead. If you knew what is the deal with psychotics (allegedly schizophrenic) you would know that they dont have the slightest interest in socializing, and even less interest in typing their stories on an Internet forum so others give him advice. This Vlad character seems to be a normal Internet attention seeker, probably slightly depressed. This whole Vlad drama just shows how some DMT Nexus members are so gullible. Welcome to the Internet.
 
What a great thread this is!

I say: declare open-season on anyone who does dispense advice -- medical or otherwise. Demand the rational evidence. If someone says "You should go smoke changa in the woods and talk with the elves -- they'll fix ya right up!" I think it would be only fair to challenge this statement on the spot. Preferably with Art at your back reloading the shot-guns.

This becomes a critical moment for communication and education. A chance to collapse the waveform to some sort of consensus reality. And education is a good part of what this forum is all about. And education is what society at large needs to be about.

Wasn't it Williams James who said something about censorship being a lost opportunity to test our assumptions?
 
cker - I think you believe my aim here to be in limiting legal liability. It's not. But I do feel we have an obligation to some minimal standards of conduct - and what we're talking about here are pretty basic and fundamental examples.

clouds - What can I say to that, really? Your attitude is about as cold and callous as it could possibly be. Attention seeker? What do I know? He didn't strike me that way. He seemed weird and confused and 100% out of touch with reality. I'd prefer you be right, and the whole thing a hoax - but again, it didn't seem like one. Either way, you're a classy dude to dismiss it all so handily.
 
Art, you wrote:
and you tell him that if it were you, you'd put your trust in a shaman rather than a psychiatrist. Well, now he's dead
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My orginal opinion:

i feel that a psychiatrist is a ridicolous idea for a psychonaut, at least in more or less mild cases, where no immediate danger for his or her life exists.
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I'm sorry you have misunderstood me. I'm not against crysis intervention if lifes are at stake. And just to make it clear: I'm not telling anyone to stop their medication if they are currently taking any. But i'm definatly arguing for a broader, more reflected view of what the term "healing" means. Just like fractal, i've had very unsatisfying and even bad encounters with medical doctors, the same goes with some of my friends. I'm arguing against thoughtless trust in medical doctors. That, i do not say because i wouldn't trust them per se. I've also talked to nice people who really wanted to help me.

That being said, i'm fine with the current wording, it balances out my rather fundamentalist view. It's easy to get misunderstood if you use strong words, and this, i'm certainly guilty of.

Also, i did not give advice to vlad, i voiced my opinion against your proposal, and i hope i've made myself more clear this time. I also like your intention art, that is harm reduction. I just think the topic isn't clear cut.
 
I'm not sure we are being very productive in this thread any more. We're down to reproaches and defensives and those IME don't bring about solutions. What Art brought to our attention is valid and relevant for any community that cares for its members and/or the well-being of humans in general. Sure we can't save people from themselves, but we can at least tread carefully in areas of advice where we are not qualified to give any, especially when the situation seems like actual action needs to be taken.

I'm not sure if and how our attitude towards this needs to be worded differently. Perhaps a simple community effort with the now raised awareness of this problematic is already enough? I certainly will do my best to watch out for this kind of thing and steer it away from becoming a bad-or-unqualified-advice thread, and I'm sure that others will do the same after reading this thread here. Additionally the mods will probably have their own discussions about this, and I think that any member who is clearly giving out unqualified advice too freely should be PMed to take care and possibly edit a bit. I don't think there's much more we can do at this point without shutting down open discussions entirely.

We should all be aware of our responsibilities as human beings towards others, and I think we're doing a good job here, if not perfect then at least we are always working towards improving ourselves and the joint-effort, which is why I appreciate this thread. So let's just all take this to heart as a thing we should look out for and then use our best judgement to not only deal with the person seeking advice but also the community response, in order to give the best possible output.
 
I personally think this thread is a waste of time. This forum is full of mature, responsible people, with lots of good advice, if someone is looking for advice, we have; I have the option of giving it or not. I don't trust the Western medical industry, that has been my experience.
 
FiorSirtheoir said:
I personally think this thread is a waste of time. This forum is full of mature, responsible people, with lots of good advice, if someone is looking for advice, we have; I have the option of giving it or not. I don't trust the Western medical industry, that has been my experience.
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Western medical industry may not always be the best option. But in real serious cases it often is.
When somebody has a realy serious life-threatening condition like cancer or schizophenia (wich is life-threatening in a different way, but still), then i totally agree that the med's are nasty...but there is no serious alternative.

Don't come with claims that some shamanistic ritual can cure cancer. That's just bullshit.

The grass is always greener where you can't see it.
 
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