Mythbusters: Urban psychedelic legends

[DansMaTete]

About harmalas : i took 300mg + 300mg 1h30 after (harmalas extracted from rue) and if it wasn't psychedelic in the same way as others molecules, i was definitly in an other state of mind though strong nausea and huge tracers didn't make it easy.


I don't know if it's a myth or not : does sugar (saccharose) consumption during the trip make mescaline less strong ?

 

[dreamer042]

@GOD

I most assuredly don't deny the efficacy of modern medicine, we've collectively learned a lot over the generations and can achieve amazing things with our current level of medical technology. We are in agreement on this point.

Your complete and total dismissal of traditional healing techniques in every culture around the globe dating back into pre-history is completely unfounded. There is good peer reviewed research in this area, there are also thousands upon thousands of reports of the healing of ailments modern medicine has been unable to treat. To wave off tens of thousands of years of collective human knowledge is a rather presumptuous position to take.

You originally spoke of science using words like "proven facts", which I most assuredly do not agree with. However you later changed your position to acknowledge that the pursuit of scientific research is fallible and our current theories are not the end all be all of truth. It appears we are now in agreement on this point, no need to argue it any further.

I would appreciate it if you would provide references for the claims you make. You mention several studies and researchers in this thread, yet have provided not a single link or citation. A part of the attitude statement of this forum is Quality of Information, basically stating you need to provide evidence for your claims.

You also make some bold and rather specious assumptions that your experience is somehow more valid than that of others. This is a strong bias that makes edification difficult.

There are thousands of members on this forum that have worked extensively with Harmala alkaloids, as well as Peganum harmala seeds and the Banisteriopsis lianas. Quite a few of us have been working with these medicines for many years. It might be helpful if you delineate your exact definition of "hallucinogenic", perhaps that could help clear up the misunderstanding. There is no question that these compounds are visionary in larger doses.

It's a bit of a misnomer to equate DMT/LSD/THC/Mescaline considering all these compounds have very unique effects making them hard to compare to one another. So too do the harmalas have their unique presentation, making such simplistic side by side comparisons difficult.

Dosage can vary quite a bit, but in analyzing the data present from the reports on this forum, a very generalized pattern has emerged. For most people 1-2 grams Peganum harmala seeds is enough for light psychoactive effects and threshold MAO inhibition. 2-3 grams is an average solid dose and generally the range used to orally activate DMT. 3-4 grams is the level where people can begin to coax out a visionary experience when laying down and relaxing in the dark. 4-5 grams is typically considered a strong dose which the majority of people report being a bit much, these doses can be extremely visionary causing the user to slip into profound dreamlike states, however they are also routinely reported to be rather uncomfortable. This is an average dose range, individual sensitivity and metabolism differs considerably and some people may need significantly more or significantly less than others to achieve the same effects; as always, ymmv.

 

[steppa]

Many of us have taken high doses

Please define "high dose".

dozens of times and described very psychedelic experiences with them here, and in other threads/chat, extensively.

I read reports of people describing a psychedelic experiences they got from smoking banana peals. Does this make them a psychedelic?

It also goes best in combination with other techniques/substances, like weed, tryptamines, melatonin, darkness meditation, etc, obviously.

So...we agree that darkness meditation alone can give a visionary experience?

But on it's own it is still extremely powerful in high doses.

What does powerful mean? Is the experience still powerfull in daylight? If not, I'd like to say that it isn't powerful.

Do we agree that psychedlic substances cause hallucinations no matter if there's light or darkness if the dose is high enough?

If all you had was "Psychelogical effects and physical effects that come from uncertainty and imagination", rest assured that you only had a very very mild dose at best.

GOD said

I slowly worked up from 3 gramms to 20 gramms on different ocasions in silence and darkness and nothing happened except a little aprehension .

Would you consider 20 gramms a mild dose?

Can we please define the difference between visionary and psychedelic/hallucinogenic?

 

[--Shadow]

Many of us have taken high doses

Please define "high dose".

4-5 grams is typically considered a strong dose

 

[universecannon]

Many of us have taken high doses

Please define "high dose".

dozens of times and described very psychedelic experiences with them here, and in other threads/chat, extensively.

I read reports of people describing a psychedelic experiences they got from smoking banana peals. Does this make them a psychedelic?

It also goes best in combination with other techniques/substances, like weed, tryptamines, melatonin, darkness meditation, etc, obviously.

So...we agree that darkness meditation alone can give a visionary experience?

But on it's own it is still extremely powerful in high doses.

What does powerful mean? Is the experience still powerfull in daylight? If not, I'd like to say that it isn't powerful.

Do we agree that psychedlic substances cause hallucinations no matter if there's light or darkness if the dose is high enough?

If all you had was "Psychelogical effects and physical effects that come from uncertainty and imagination", rest assured that you only had a very very mild dose at best.

GOD said

I slowly worked up from 3 gramms to 20 gramms on different ocasions in silence and darkness and nothing happened except a little aprehension .

Would you consider 20 gramms a mild dose?

Can we please define the difference between visionary and psychedelic/hallucinogenic?

Maybe take the time to actually read my post, because dreamer and I have already outlined the very rough dosages (which vary for everyone).

I never said it is ONLY psychedelic in silent darkness. Just that this helps a lot in manifesting it's deeper aspects. It manifests less readily than tryptamines.

This is getting ridiculous. I don't care if you don't believe the countless people who've tried it. Go work with it yourself if you want.

 

[rOm]

I'd like to chime in, to confirm, if you start using harmalas, or rue seeds by its own, you can have visuals - and detailed ones, even in daylight (with closed eyes maybe) but these visuals aren't as colorful or geometric as DMT, mushrooms, LSD or mescaline etc..
If I recall well the dose was 400mg FB harmalas. The main reason why it's not very popular is the -sometimes extreme- nausea and motion sickness higher harmalas doses induce.
Also it is very frequent to have tracers with harmalas alone.
In its energy and effect on mind I found harmalas to be closer to the other classic psychedelic ibogaine.

 

[obliguhl]

Harmalas are psychedelic on their own, i've had closed eye visuals and auditory alterations drinkign only 30g caapi tea. They are dim, nevertheless there. Furthermore, harmalas facilitate a certain sensing of spaces, as if you'd telepathically "see" a certain place. That is pretty psychedelic on its own and becomes immensely apparant, once you add dmt.

There really is no need to discuss this, because it is a fact as far as i am concerned.

 

[universecannon]

One of the most interesting things for me, having used them a lot, is their effect on the "imagination" (whatever that is...won't get into it here!). It seems to start going on some kind of psychedelic auto-pilot in these trances, and then next thing you know you realize you're literally seeing what you were just day dreaming about a minute ago. Jung actually used to do this and have visions start manifesting intensely - he called it active imagination and I would speculate that he had larger amounts of endogenous beta carbolines during them.

And their effect on the mind generally can be extremely bizarre, with thoughts splitting into separate autonomous trippy "idea complexes", for lack of a better term. The nature of your "thoughtchitecture" can get very strange and is impossible to really describe.

As you work with it, it can evolve a LOT in my experience (as with all of these things, of course). Most people haven't had OBEs with harmalas alone but it is very possible.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

From my perspective, the people questioning the effects of harmalas simply don't have much experience with them, thre's nothing else I can attribute it to. It's reminiscent of when people come here saying that DMT is little more than some colors and seeing inanimate objects in their room warp/distort. Imo, it's apparent that people making such claims simply don't know what they're talking about.

From the harmala dosing thread:

I'm always blown away by the effects that people report from doses that (to me) seem rather small. More and more I'm realizing that I'm a complete outlier with regards to my required doses. I have given my gf 200mg of harmalas extracted from rue on a regular basis for a month or two to help with PTSI, to wonderful effect. The one time I bumped her up to 225mg, she said it was a bit much and got some nausea from it, but otherwise, there were nothing but positive effects according to her.

For me, 200mgs or less is essentially a subconscious dose. It will have mental effects and soothes/relaxes me without any truly noticeable acute effects. From 250-300mg I will feel some very minor "floating" and "stoning" effects, not all that unlike effects from certain strains of cannabis, however, there is no mental fog. In addition, I usually have a general sense of well-being/comfort and feel fairly relaxed, perhaps even slightly sedated.

Between 300-400mg, depending on what I've eaten, if I've exercised and perhaps other factors of that day, I find that the aforementioned effects are enhanced significantly and a level of physical drunkenness begins to set in. Nausea sets in somewhere between 350-400mg, but is barely noticeable and comes in waves, if at all.

From 400-450mg, nausea is common although not overwhelming. Any purging is self-induced and tends to yield little to nothing (depending on what I've eaten, obviously...but the reflex does not feel very "deep" ). I have tracers and undeniable physical drunkenness along with yawning, difficulty reading or focusing on fine motor tasks but am overall functional and have gone out and done manual labor and other activities at this dose.

500-700mg ????

I have dosed myself in the 700-900mg range perhaps 3-4 times, mostly owing to my own forgetfulness when taking pre-measured capsules or dosing before getting a couple hours of sleep and then dosing again after waking up. These experiences have been full blown psychedelic experiences with subtle, yet full visual-field tracers/visuals, near-complete lack of fine motor control, incredibly diminished muscle coordination, full-on repeated purging (on one occasion from both ends), continual yawning, strong auditory hallucinations, dizziness, cramps and the most serene feelings of bliss, joy and well-being once it was all over, in at least 2 cases lasting several days (with one case lasting over a week). I do not recommend or advise taking these doses and cannot imagine what ridiculousness would ensue if any admixture was taken. In reading some of the older ethnobotanical literature that claims that harmalas are not psychedelic by themselves, I can only assume that the researchers in question did not take high enough doses to experience the acute effects that can be induced.

As to this:

I slowly worked up from 3 gramms to 20 gramms on different ocasions in silence and darkness and nothing happened except a little aprehension .

The only way I would believe this is if you had some of the weakest rue seeds ever encountered. And even then, it wouldn't demonstrate anything other than the fact that you had bunk seeds.

 

[DreaMTripper]

I dont know why this is being questioned they are without a doubt psychoactive and have a wide spectrum of effect that many have documented and to compare them to that farcial banana skin myth is just trolling.

 

[--Shadow]

Yea watermelons good. My favorite thing on mushrooms is oranges, Or maybe a mango

I remember a friend telling me in the club (back in the day), that the best thing for "coming down" off MDMA, Speed or LSD is to drink Citrus

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=174637:

LSD is metabolized in the liver. The enzyme involved is unknown, but is probably one of the P-450 cytochromes. Cytochrome P-450 3A4 is significantly inhibited by grapefruit juice. Note the drug interaction warnings ! There may be a similar effect on LSD breakdown. This article claims that Oranges have a similar, but less pronounced, effect.
Acids, such as Vitamin C or citric acid, also affect the rate at which some drugs are absorbed. If the drug happens to be psychotropic, this can alter the users perception of the drug's actions.

"What in your opinion was opinion in what i said please ?"

Exactly what you said in your previous post, that DMT experience is a hallucination, and "not real". I respect that opinion, but as long as you state it as an opinion, not a fact. Once you go convincing me about that, while you, in fact, don't truly know what the heck is going on, I have a problem with you. Read the attitude page once again.

I think I should stop here, before this thread go into abyss. Have a nice day.

Seriously... are we REALLY entertaining the MYTH that hallucinogens don't cause 'hallucinations', but rather real manifestations of some kind?

 

[--Shadow]

I'd like to chime in, to confirm, if you start using harmalas, or rue seeds by its own, you can have visuals - and detailed ones, even in daylight (with closed eyes maybe) but these visuals aren't as colorful or geometric as DMT, mushrooms, LSD or mescaline etc..
If I recall well the dose was 400mg FB harmalas. The main reason why it's not very popular is the -sometimes extreme- nausea and motion sickness higher harmalas doses induce.

I think I'm gonna ask my GVG tonight... :d

...I'll report back tomorrow

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Seriously... are we REALLY entertaining the MYTH that hallucinogens don't cause 'hallucinations', but rather real manifestations of some kind?

Seeing as we can't even prove waking reality is "real" in an objective sense (and have numerous threads that demonstrate just how contentious such discussions become), this statement is rather absurd.

 

[Mistletoe Minx]

Seriously... are we REALLY entertaining the MYTH that hallucinogens don't cause 'hallucinations', but rather real manifestations of some kind?

Seeing as we can't even prove waking reality is "real" in an objective sense (and have numerous threads that demonstrate just how contentious such discussions become), this statement is rather absurd.

This kind of nihilism seems self defeating to me. But, even so, if we can't even prove that waking reality is really 'real' why is it then absurd to suggest that DMT visions are also not really real?

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Seriously... are we REALLY entertaining the MYTH that hallucinogens don't cause 'hallucinations', but rather real manifestations of some kind?

Seeing as we can't even prove waking reality is "real" in an objective sense (and have numerous threads that demonstrate just how contentious such discussions become), this statement is rather absurd.

This kind of nihilism seems self defeating to me. But, even so, if we can't even prove that waking reality is really 'real' why is it then absurd to suggest that DMT visions are also not really real?

Nihilism? Hardly.

Making absolute statements about the reality or unreality of these experiences and their components is absurd because we simply don't know.

We don't know.

So if we don't know, acting incredulous about any of the myriad of possibilities is rather premature.

And even if some things may be more probable than others, we have no clue if the "truth" even falls into the realm of things we can actually conceive of.

At this point, I'd recommend anyone unfamiliar with gibran2's improbability of hyperspace threads to take a read.

The Improbability of Hyperspace
The Improbability of Hyperspace Part II


The only reason I interjected into this thread was to suggest that overly certain statements about the nature of these experiences don't make sense. Perhaps one day we will have sufficient understandings to make more concrete statements about what is or is not happening, but today is not that day.

 

[anrchy]

Cant it be a hallucination and real at the same time?

Anyways, what about the claim that drinking orange juice will potentiate mushrooms. Is that a myth?

 

[3rdI]

would that be to do with the lemon tek? Id guess it was a similar action with OJ as it is with lemon juice.

 

[anrchy]

I was always told a long time ago that if you start to come down off your peak to drink oj/sunny delight/eat vitamin c drops to bring it back.

 

[○]

Ime, harmalas taken in high enough dosages, especially in darkness/silent darkness, will bring about visions.

The more you work with them, as far as being consistent in the dosing, sensitivity arises over time, and eventually less is needed to get there.

 

[universecannon]

Seriously... are we REALLY entertaining the MYTH that hallucinogens don't cause 'hallucinations', but rather real manifestations of some kind?

The presumptions that sorround this sentence are utterly ridiculous imo

Reality as we normally experience it might as well be a "hallucination" (whatever those "are"...) to begin with, being that it is always in some way mediated via a cascade of neurotransmitters.