NBOME, Apb ban. Thoughts

[Jellyfox]

As some of you may already know, this week the UK is issuing a ban on NBOME's and Benzo Furans.

'NBOMe' and 'Benzofury' banned

The government has banned 'NBOMe' and 'Benzofury', two groups of 'legal highs'.

www.gov.uk

25i-NBOME and 25b-NBOME are two of the chemicals included in the ban. They are both relatively new RC's that are very similar to LSD.

While I have not taken any of these substances and have no strong attachment to them, the way that our societies handle "drugs" upsets me to the point where I need to vent my frustration in an article such as this.

This is something I have been taking note of . Every couple of years or so Some new kind of analogue or chemical very similar to the more classic "drugs" (marijuana, cocaine, meth, LSD, heroin) is being developed.

There are synthetic cannabanoids (spice) attempting to imitate Marijuana, Bath Salts to replace amphetamines, NItracaine etc etc. to substitute as cocaine, MDAI as impostor MDMA, Research chemicals to Mimic LSD (2c-NBOMe w/e). Even attempts to make chemicals that are close to Psilocybin (4-aco-dmt). It's like a heroin addict switching to Methadone.

It's so upsetting to me. Most people never even bother to research and educate themselves about the different drugs (even if they don't use them) and settle for the information they get from school or the news.

When are the people in positions of influence going to realize that there is a demand for these substances and by outlawing and "erasing" them, they are only putting users in harms way of more dangerous designer drugs.

We keep inventing new ways to achieve the states provided by these "classic" drugs but it seems the farther we stray from they're original forms the more dangerous they become.

Picture this scenario.

What if Alcohol and tobacco were made illegal? then groups would start creating all kinds of deadlier Tobacco analogues and drinks that mimic alcohol. The first wave of alcohol and tobacco analogues are made illegal after a couple of years. So the companies release the new wave of analogues they have been storing. Finally enough people realize that it is natural to want to get high off something and they demand that Alcohol and Tobacco be made legal again in their original forms. Cigies and beers for everyone.

That is just analyzing the impact of drugs on society from the viewpoint of 2 drugs which our society condones.

I will end with this sentiment. A short poem I thought of the other day.

The kid's want LSD? let em have LSD. That way, they don't get sold 2c-b.

 

[Nathanial.Dread]

On a moral level, I am dissapointed by the fact that even as the tide starts to turn towards decriminalization, the UK has decided to ban the NBOMEs. All people should have the freedom to put whatever they want in their bodies, be it heroin, NBOMEs or strychnine, for all I care.

That said, I won't shed too many tears over the loss of these RC psychs. For those people who are really serious about psychedelic exploration, it's pretty easy and safe to grow your own psilocybin mushrooms, so long as you're not slinging them.

For people who just wanted to trip at a party, I don't have a whole lot of emotional bandwith reserved for their feelings, and anyway, if ravers want to trip, they're going to trip. The legality issue is largely irrelevant in that community. (In my experience_

 

[AluminumFoilRobots]

Honestly, I find the NBOMe series to be on the beneficial side of the drug divide - albeit potentially dangerous, mostly dose-dependent and situation-dependent - and actually am a little sad to see them go; but it's clear that if this "LSD-like" (in THEIR words, not mine) substance is so dangerous... why not legalize LSD? I mean, I know they wont do it on their own, but still that seems obvious.
And Yes, you would probably be better off with homegrown mushrooms or another natural psychedelic. They are so much more likely to produce a spiritual experience than any NBOMe - but, just as the NBOMe's will never replace more thorough classic grandfather-medicines, these big-brain-busters won't substitute for the NBOMe. I can appreciate their less deep nature... as while I don't usually have insights into the universe, soul, god, or any "deeper" subject matter, I can focus on the "lighter" subjects like interpersonal interaction, human nature, my past... things of this nature... and honestly I find them to be quite intellectual - LSD is probably more so... cactus is certainly more so... but I don't know, I can appreciate them. And I for one will be sad to see them go. If they werent so damn POTENT.

As for the benzofurans, I can't comment, never took 'em.

 

[Jellyfox]

as i said i have yet to take any of the substances affected by the ban so i don't even know what they are like really. The real point is how ridiculous the mainstream perception of what drugs are and what they do, is.

 

[Orion]

This still leaves a lot of other NBOMEs slipping through their net...

 

[GobblinTorch]

Just want to point out that you suggesting 2c-b as a RC is almost as bad as writing articles like you're bothered by.

 

[The Traveler]

Just want to point out that you suggesting 2c-b as a RC is almost as bad as writing articles like you're bothered by.

I would also put 2C-B in the RC or 'Novel Psychoactive Substances' class.

The reason why LSD is not put in that same class is because it has been thoroughly researched already in the past.

The biggest problem with RC's is that we do not know the long term (and often even not the short and medium term) side effects of those substances. They might be beneficial, neutral or slowly poisoning you, we simply do not know. Hence why we should be careful with them.

And that last paragraph is the reason why talk about RC's is only allowed in the Novel Psychoactive Substances subforum and only together with a good safety profile.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[DeMenTed]

Al-LAD is here and theres the nboh's etc so screw the uk government! Theres more people die from alcohol in the uk everyday than die from RC's in a 5 years, ridiculous :thumb_dow

 

[GobblinTorch]

LSD was created 36 years before and has obviously had more studies conducted upon it. 2c-b has been used by both the psycho-therapeutic and psycho-nautical communities for nearly 40 years. Dosage and short-term effects are VERY WELL established. You're correct that long term effects are unknown, but that can be said about several things considered "classics."

LSH, Salvia Divinorum, and 5-MeO-DMT have quite a few blanks in their research dossier and yet are considered "classics" when they are similarly lacking extensive research. I'm not saying they are as un-researched as 2c-b, but they're definitely less researched than LSD. Consumption by indigenous peoples doesn't necessarily equate a complete understanding of said substances. Also smoking/vaporizing many of the herbs which go into changa could also have long term effects that we don't properly understand - is changa an RC?

I realize due to government prohibition of proper research we don't know as much as we could about 2c-b, but to equate (by suggestion, not directly) it to RCs such as NBOMe and APB is the same type of generalization performed my mainstream media outlets. Considering the point of the OP's post this was IMO hypocritical.

"Salvia is the new LSD." -some newspaper at some point not so long ago

2c-b has had significantly more research conducted on it than the RCs in question. That's my concern with the post, not that 2c-b be defined as an RC/Novel Psychoactive.

2c-b wasn't created within the last 5 years. Also according to substance analysis' in Europe 2c-b is almost never encountered being sold as LSD potentially because of it's good reputation/understanding of effect/dosage in certain communities.

I respect that 2c-b still needs research before being given the same safety profile as LSD or DMT, but the OP would of been much more factual if they had stated "The kid's want LSD? let em have LSD. That way, they don't get sold NBOMes/DOxs." As it stands the statement was poorly researched.

PS:
I stress that everyone be extremely cautious with all psychedelic/psychoactive substances whether "RC" or "classic" because the scientific understanding of such substances is only very basic. The well researched ones could pose significant undiscovered risks that haven't arisen in the last 80 years of research.

Safety First,

 

[AluminumFoilRobots]

^^^^
I can appreciate this post, and holdd a similar point of view. Although, in mine it is a little flipped - LSD is essentially an RC, albeit and much more researched one. It is a semi-synthetic, totally novel psychoactive with only 70 years of history, and probably effects that we do not understand now. I mean, listen tohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_ud3NkZGmI david nichols talk about the latest advances in understanding psychedelic pharmacology.

 

[The Day Tripper]

We keep inventing new ways to achieve the states provided by these "classic" drugs but it seems the farther we stray from they're original forms the more dangerous they become.

Picture this scenario.

What if Alcohol and tobacco were made illegal? then groups would start creating all kinds of deadlier Tobacco analogues and drinks that mimic alcohol. The first wave of alcohol and tobacco analogues are made illegal after a couple of years. So the companies release the new wave of analogues they have been storing. Finally enough people realize that it is natural to want to get high off something and they demand that Alcohol and Tobacco be made legal again in their original forms. Cigies and beers for everyone.

Jamaica ginger - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The only other thing i have to say is i completely agree with your post. I don't favor prohibiting any substance, even if a safer alternative exists (the lsd/rc psychs, cannabis, synthetic cannabinoids argument). All it does is shift demand to a vacancy soon to be filled by a soon to be banned untested novel compound.

You cannot win with these tactics, all this is is masturbation to keep the bureaucracy and MONEY involved with prohibition flowing. And its a quite disgusting show of human misery and suffering caused needlessly, and greed/corruption on the part of the power subjecting the public to such mindless oppression, under the guise of protecting them and making them safer.

And people by and large just roll over and vote to give up additional rights for a sense of security in the presence of fear. Kinda like what has happened, wait exactly like what happened since 9/11.

Kinda sad really. But for every dark night there's a rising sun, and the actions will have their reactions, the equations their solutions, and things will do as they always have, change.

Because shit, we were promised change twice in the last 5 years, and we failed to realize it has still yet to come in any form. Same as it always was.

 

[Jellyfox]

Well Goblin i must agree with you that i didn't do as much research as I should have, but i still know that for a while 2c-b was sold as a Research chemical.

Although still available through online stores in some countries as a "research chemical" not for human consumption, 2C-B is scheduled as a drug in most jurisdictions.[24]

I also agree with you that my short poem wasn't thought out correctly. From here out ittl be "The kids want LSD? let em have LSD. That way the don't get sold NBOME." (had to have it rhyme still)

you are correct that 2cb is more researched than some of the other chemicals mentioned.

Even tho I made some false and unresearched statements, I think my message is still clear.

There is an obvious demand for Psychedelic substances and it is ridiculous that the safe (classic) drugs are illegal, but the dirty dangerous research chemicals are completely legal, until there banned and then they make a new research chemical thats most likely more dangerous.

 

[GobblinTorch]

I generally agree with your sentiment. But taking creative license is exactly what the news would say they're doing (just some food for thought).

I'm glad you realize I'm not so much attacking you personally and instead just adding to this discussion. I used the word "almost" originally because you weren't nearly as completely out-to-lunch as mainstream media articles. Making a leap of logic for poetry > making a leap of logic in a news article. That said I personally believe we should hold ourselves to a much higher standard than deliberately ignorant news organizations.

I still completely agree with the majority of your post, just considering the literature on 2c-b (which is what made me comfortable seeking it out) vs. something like NBOMe gives 2c-b a much greater starting point from which to consume such a substance in a safe manner. 2c-b is half way to being a "classic" such as LSD, whereas NBOMe is a long way off.

It's been done MANY times before versus NBOMe where you are venturing into dark space with only vague estimates of dosage and effects.

I'm also making a bit of an uninformed judgement here, but 2c-b is a unique compound with effects in some ways improved upon the inspirational substance (Mescaline); shorter duration, more appropriate for dosing within city limits, and creates a very interesting experience when dosed at the tail end of MDxx.

Whereas substances such as MDPV, NBOMe, and some of those cocaine analogues you mentioned are truly re-inventing the wheel as a square object.

While scientific research should definitely be conducted it would be much preferable for the mainstream to have access to the older skool allies such as "classics" and older RCs like 2c-x and DOx.

I would like to close with again reminding everyone that even most of the classics have been around for barely 80 years. Devastating health effects could be one discovery away, but that's a risk I'm willing to take, and I personally believe our minds would not accept such compounds if we weren't meant to take them. Any substance can be over-used and IMHO that is where potential harmful effects will arise. I'm not a scientist, so take this with a grain of salt.

 

[AluminumFoilRobots]

just considering the literature on 2c-b (which is what made me comfortable seeking it out) vs. something like NBOMe gives 2c-b a much greater starting point from which to consume such a substance in a safe manner. 2c-b is half way to being a "classic" such as LSD, whereas NBOMe is a long way off.

Hm, in what manner do you mean?

I think the primary problem with the NBOMe's are their extreme potency and small therapeutic window. The same goes for the DOx's, though I have not researched them as heavily. Phenethylamines, by their very nature, are more potentially toxic/dangerous than tryptamines (usually and AFAIK). Mescaline can be toxic in very high doses, and its low potency (hundreds of milligrams dosage) is what buffers the user from this potentiality. the 2C's are EQUALLY more dangerous as they are more potent than mescaline, with the active dosage being in the teens-twenties milligrams with more causing toxicity as one raises the dose.
So it follows that these NBOMe's, with their raising of potency to the sub-milligram level, would be that much MORE dangerous. It is simply a matter of pharmacology, with 1 mg of some NBOMe activating its receptors as powerfully as several hundred milligrams of mescaline. I don't think this has any bearing on how "good" or "bad" of a psychedelic it is That is an entireky other conversation.. It can lead to some fairly wonderful insights in several non-cosmic ways, which is useful at times. Others may have more mystical experiences than me, I don't know. But they are dangerous, no way around that, and really msecaline IS better, don't get me wrong, and I'm sure LSD is great too, and BOTH ARE MORE SAFE DOSE-WISE - so those should probably be the drugs the kids are getting! If you can't figure out how to volumetrically measure doses then you shouldnt be taking the drug, hands down. It's an atrocity that these are being sold as anything else than what they are.

Oh, and people might want to stop sampling nasal doses of this stuff at festivals and stuff.

 

[The Day Tripper]

just considering the literature on 2c-b (which is what made me comfortable seeking it out) vs. something like NBOMe gives 2c-b a much greater starting point from which to consume such a substance in a safe manner. 2c-b is half way to being a "classic" such as LSD, whereas NBOMe is a long way off.

Hm, in what manner do you mean?

I think the primary problem with the NBOMe's are their extreme potency and small therapeutic window. The same goes for the DOx's, though I have not researched them as heavily. Phenethylamines, by their very nature, are more potentially toxic/dangerous than tryptamines (usually and AFAIK). Mescaline can be toxic in very high doses, and its low potency (hundreds of milligrams dosage) is what buffers the user from this potentiality. the 2C's are EQUALLY more dangerous as they are more potent than mescaline, with the active dosage being in the teens-twenties milligrams with more causing toxicity as one raises the dose.
So it follows that these NBOMe's, with their raising of potency to the sub-milligram level, would be that much MORE dangerous. It is simply a matter of pharmacology, with 1 mg of some NBOMe activating its receptors as powerfully as several hundred milligrams of mescaline. I don't think this has any bearing on how "good" or "bad" of a psychedelic it is That is an entireky other conversation.. It can lead to some fairly wonderful insights in several non-cosmic ways, which is useful at times. Others may have more mystical experiences than me, I don't know. But they are dangerous, no way around that, and really msecaline IS better, don't get me wrong, and I'm sure LSD is great too, and BOTH ARE MORE SAFE DOSE-WISE - so those should probably be the drugs the kids are getting! If you can't figure out how to volumetrically measure doses then you shouldnt be taking the drug, hands down. It's an atrocity that these are being sold as anything else than what they are.

Oh, and people might want to stop sampling nasal doses of this stuff at festivals and stuff.

cant disagree with any of that. the reason we have bans are due to irresponsible tragedies by individuals who made a mistake causing knee jerk decisions on controlled substances. this should have never occurred statistically. then you get the positive feedback loop to ban (ineffectively) the next new threat to our children (theyre words, not mine).

One things for sure, youll never succeed at banning all these drugs "dangerous to society". the only result is more da,age than benefit.

 

[GobblinTorch]

Yes phenethylamines are more dangerous in overdose than tryptamines. No arguments there -- I prefer phens myself, but I also measure my doses.

What I meant is that your average party-goer/member of the "counter-culture" is much more likely to be aware of 2c-b dosage (~20mg) than NBOMe dosage (yes info is available). 2c-b has been around for decades - people tend to have it in measured capsules, people specifically want it over other substances, there are a multitude of trip reports/articles/etc on the substance, no recorded fatalities from 2c-b -- NBOMe .. not so much (something like 5 deaths in the past few years).

2c-b is actually remarkably safe in overdose (considering its active dose, not comparing to mescaline/LSD). There are reports of consuming 100mg. Incredibly long-lived, terrifying, and scary body-effects, but these reports have illustrated that its unlikely to kill you unless it was combined with other things/administered to a sensitive individual/snorted. Unfortunately as you pointed out people do that kind of idiotic stuff with random white powders

NBOMe is sort of like giving crystal LSD to people -- AFAIK. DOx are similarily dangerous, but considering their availability also for decades there have been less fatalities than NBOMe in the past few. I'm torn if its actually safer to have these things on blotter vs. powder cause some kids munch down like 10 hits thinking its typically weak LSD.

I'm just looking at the numbers really. In decades of 2c-b use: zero recorded fatalities, ~6 from 2c-e and 2c-t-7 (around for a little less), a handful from DOx.

In roughly 2 years of NBOMe use something like 5-6 people have died. I'm not hating on NBOMe, but they're obviously more dangerous by a significant margin than 2c-b.

 

[AluminumFoilRobots]

GoblinTorch:
I think we are on the same page about this. I am also finding out lately that I am also a phen-kinda-guy, not that I don;t like tryptamine (Juremala FTW! ) - there is just something so mammalian and earthling about the phens compared to trypts, probably excepting for the most part aya/anahuasca(s).

In a perfect psychedelic-friendly society those kids would just be getting LSD, and that would be fine. Let the NBOMe's (and RC's in general) be the exclusive domain of drug-nerds. Let the hippies have LSD, let the methheads have meth (I guess?! Is it better than Mephedrone? IRDK.) And let the drug nerds have this crap.

Look, don't get me wrong, I am very cautious with these - and in fact as I read more and more OD reports or even more frighteningly people (apparently) getting sick from "usual" doses, I am getting more and more turned off by these.

I have to go to breakfast with my wife's sithoo, but I'll come back and finish this post.

 

[DeMenTed]

The chemists have already bodyswerved the apb and n-methyl derivatives ban with the appearance of 5-EAPB the n--ethyl derivative. It's just a silly game of cat and mouse imo

 

[TOXSIN]

After trying 25I-Nbome for a second time last night at approx. 400-500mics taken over the course of 2 hours basically about 170-200 Mics taken waited a half an hour another 100-133mics then another hour time taking another 100-133mics dropped onto a coffee filter as a ghetto blotter stuck under my lip without swallowing any saliva for a half an hour at a time until each redosing. I can say I doubt I will EVER take anything labeled as nbome again it was extremely stimulating, overly so I felt like I had a 10,000 watt voltage coord shoved up my ass and needed to run laps, had restless leg syndrome barely any visuals, and just general malaise was felt in my head and my body. Especially discontenting was the vasoconstriction I felt which showed its ugly head as a tingly sensation in my fingers, I thought I had felt it with LSA but nothing I've felt has compared to nbome when it comes to that. I give this chem a definite thumbs down on my opinion, some may love it, but for someone who's usually a hard head to stimulants and requiring a higher dose then most for desired effects the 25I effects were so overly stimulating that any minor visuals I felt at this dose were NOT WORTH THE anxiety and restless leg syndrome, vasoconstriction. etc. I strongly STRONGLY suggest huge amounts of research being put into any use of this chem and even just avoiding it entirely. As I said this is my opinion but I definitely see where this stuff can be fatal at a higher dose, my heart didn't feel like it was going to explode admittedly, no nothing like that but it was definitely a huge body load and extremely uncomfortable feeling for about 4 hours after the first alerts. I owe a huge thanks to those who listened to me ramble on in the nexus chat while over stimulated, including special shout outs to mustelid, and voidtraveler, especially for just enduring my need to continuously type and ask questions they probably didn't know or didn't feel comfortable answering and anyone else involved as well, again this is all my opinion but I HIGHLY suggest avoiding the Nbome series! I never got a chance to try the original 2c-Xs but if they are anything like what I experienced on 25I I am glad.

 

[leon]

After trying 25I-Nbome for a second time last night at approx. 400-500mics taken over the course of 2 hours basically about 170-200 Mics taken waited a half an hour another 100-133mics then another hour time taking another 100-133mics dropped onto a coffee filter as a ghetto blotter stuck under my lip without swallowing any saliva for a half an hour at a time until each redosing. I can say I doubt I will EVER take anything labeled as nbome again it was extremely stimulating, overly so I felt like I had a 10,000 watt voltage coord shoved up my ass and needed to run laps, had restless leg syndrome barely any visuals, and just general malaise was felt in my head and my body. Especially discontenting was the vasoconstriction I felt which showed its ugly head as a tingly sensation in my fingers, I thought I had felt it with LSA but nothing I've felt has compared to nbome when it comes to that. I give this chem a definite thumbs down on my opinion, some may love it, but for someone who's usually a hard head to stimulants and requiring a higher dose then most for desired effects the 25I effects were so overly stimulating that any minor visuals I felt at this dose were NOT WORTH THE anxiety and restless leg syndrome, vasoconstriction. etc. I strongly STRONGLY suggest huge amounts of research being put into any use of this chem and even just avoiding it entirely. As I said this is my opinion but I definitely see where this stuff can be fatal at a higher dose, my heart didn't feel like it was going to explode admittedly, no nothing like that but it was definitely a huge body load and extremely uncomfortable feeling for about 4 hours after the first alerts. I owe a huge thanks to those who listened to me ramble on in the nexus chat while over stimulated, including special shout outs to mustelid, and voidtraveler, especially for just enduring my need to continuously type and ask questions they probably didn't know or didn't feel comfortable answering and anyone else involved as well, again this is all my opinion but I HIGHLY suggest avoiding the Nbome series! I never got a chance to try the original 2c-Xs but if they are anything like what I experienced on 25I I am glad.

I've had many ++ experiences with 25b. I did encounter the issues you listed few times. If you make sure your tolerance to psychedelics is low, and not re dose, its usually fine. Its hit or miss I guess.