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New Age theories, "holier than thou" and agressive responses
- Thread starter endlessness
- Start date
Bill Nye the science guy rocks... 8)
Much Peace and Happiness
Much Peace and Happiness
My view on this is that any time people try and discuss anything remotely spiritual or metaphysical here, we have a tight nit crew of people who inevitably come on and start calling names.
Notice, that it is not the people discussing spirituality that are calling science and those who follow it "wacky, ridiculous, crazy, nutjobs, nutcases, freaks, ludicrous, loony" etc. etc.
These people are not coming onto the threads to debate points or introduce peer reviewed links. They simply call names and demand that anyone describing their own admitted and well delineated subjective personal experiences not present such viewpoints because they are not backed up by the sources they happen to find credible.
It matters not that there are reams and reams of writings on these subjects going back for thousands of years. We can not cite the Vedas or mystics or shaman? When discussing entheogens that they introduced to the world?
Please. And the idea that any talk of metaphysics, subtle energy, chakras and the like is "new age" is plainly offensive and not accurate in the least.
As a mystic & a lover of science, I find no quandry between the two views. There are things we can test scientifically, and things we can not. This is not a debate between mystics and scientists. It is a condemnation of anyone who embraces spirituality regardless of how solid their background in science is.
I don't think a forum that says it is dedicated to the "explorations of the spirit molecule" needs to start segregating all mention of spirit to a couple ghost town sub forums.
If you don't believe in telepathy (for example) why do you feel the need to go onto a thread labeled telepathy simply to call all the people there who have had these experiences nutjobs? This lack of respect for the beliefs and opinions of others is unbecoming and is far more divisive than if you had simply let the people who share these experiences chat amongst themselves.
No one is going onto threads where scientific information is being presented and calling names. No one is ridiculing science. What we have here is a consistent attempt to stifle the natural drift of any discussion about entheogens into realms beyond the ability of science to say anything about. And, this is done in a way that adds nothing to the thread.
What happens here is that if someone hasn't had the experiences that are being discussed, they think it is within their right to basically call everyone who has had the experience (subjectively or not) liars and psychopaths. Why would anyone want to spend hours and hours on a forum lying about their experiences... especially when such experiences can make them look foolish?
If it becomes acceptable here to call names at people who express metaphysical views or want to talk about their experiences that go beyond science... if threads continue to pile up where people calling mystics crazy is acceptable and goes unscolded, but the merest mention of one's personal subjective experiences is considered unwelcome... then the free and open discourse here will be lost.
It is not critical thinking we are talking about. It is respect.
Love & Light to all of you. After all, you do realize that even the most materialistic posters here would be considered nuts by mainstream people who don't even believe that DMT can cause the kinds of reactions that people post here about at all. Most people consider hallucinations to be a sign of mental illness... thus the unsavory term for psychedelics... psychotomimetic (mimicking psychosis).
HF
Notice, that it is not the people discussing spirituality that are calling science and those who follow it "wacky, ridiculous, crazy, nutjobs, nutcases, freaks, ludicrous, loony" etc. etc.
These people are not coming onto the threads to debate points or introduce peer reviewed links. They simply call names and demand that anyone describing their own admitted and well delineated subjective personal experiences not present such viewpoints because they are not backed up by the sources they happen to find credible.
It matters not that there are reams and reams of writings on these subjects going back for thousands of years. We can not cite the Vedas or mystics or shaman? When discussing entheogens that they introduced to the world?
Please. And the idea that any talk of metaphysics, subtle energy, chakras and the like is "new age" is plainly offensive and not accurate in the least.
As a mystic & a lover of science, I find no quandry between the two views. There are things we can test scientifically, and things we can not. This is not a debate between mystics and scientists. It is a condemnation of anyone who embraces spirituality regardless of how solid their background in science is.
I don't think a forum that says it is dedicated to the "explorations of the spirit molecule" needs to start segregating all mention of spirit to a couple ghost town sub forums.
If you don't believe in telepathy (for example) why do you feel the need to go onto a thread labeled telepathy simply to call all the people there who have had these experiences nutjobs? This lack of respect for the beliefs and opinions of others is unbecoming and is far more divisive than if you had simply let the people who share these experiences chat amongst themselves.
No one is going onto threads where scientific information is being presented and calling names. No one is ridiculing science. What we have here is a consistent attempt to stifle the natural drift of any discussion about entheogens into realms beyond the ability of science to say anything about. And, this is done in a way that adds nothing to the thread.
What happens here is that if someone hasn't had the experiences that are being discussed, they think it is within their right to basically call everyone who has had the experience (subjectively or not) liars and psychopaths. Why would anyone want to spend hours and hours on a forum lying about their experiences... especially when such experiences can make them look foolish?
If it becomes acceptable here to call names at people who express metaphysical views or want to talk about their experiences that go beyond science... if threads continue to pile up where people calling mystics crazy is acceptable and goes unscolded, but the merest mention of one's personal subjective experiences is considered unwelcome... then the free and open discourse here will be lost.
It is not critical thinking we are talking about. It is respect.
Love & Light to all of you. After all, you do realize that even the most materialistic posters here would be considered nuts by mainstream people who don't even believe that DMT can cause the kinds of reactions that people post here about at all. Most people consider hallucinations to be a sign of mental illness... thus the unsavory term for psychedelics... psychotomimetic (mimicking psychosis).
HF
ChaoticMethod
Eye of the Beholder
Hyperspace Fool, did you take the time to read the first post? It is actually talking both about the "spiritually inclined" and those who may reply agressivly. Can't you try and take an objective point of view? I think everybody has something to think about.
As stated in the first post, it is not spiritual matters that are juged as unfit for some sections of this forum; it is the fact that some adress them as objective facts.
Can you explain to me how writings that go back for thousands of year consist in any kind of proof? Will Bilbo The Hobbit be any more real in a thousand of years when someone will read Tolkien's books?
I also don't think there is any competition between spirituality and science: I think it is completely possible to have a spirituality that fits with what science can observe and prove.
If you begin to accept any claim by any one because you reject logic, reason and the scientific method, then where do you draw the line? Will you simply reject any fantasy tale that doesn't fit in your worldview and accept another because it fits better? I said it before and will say it again: Belief is the mind killer.
I don't have a problem with spirituality. In fact I consider myself quite spiritually inclined. I have a problem, with many others here, with the way some people try to force their beliefs on others without any valid proof.
Also, some of the more "materialists" here may be using insults in their posts. This is something I indeed see as offensive. Insulting people in a more subtle way, though, doesn't make it any less frustrating... (nay-sayers materialistic closed-minded....?)
As stated in the first post, it is not spiritual matters that are juged as unfit for some sections of this forum; it is the fact that some adress them as objective facts.
Can you explain to me how writings that go back for thousands of year consist in any kind of proof? Will Bilbo The Hobbit be any more real in a thousand of years when someone will read Tolkien's books?
I also don't think there is any competition between spirituality and science: I think it is completely possible to have a spirituality that fits with what science can observe and prove.
If you begin to accept any claim by any one because you reject logic, reason and the scientific method, then where do you draw the line? Will you simply reject any fantasy tale that doesn't fit in your worldview and accept another because it fits better? I said it before and will say it again: Belief is the mind killer.
I don't have a problem with spirituality. In fact I consider myself quite spiritually inclined. I have a problem, with many others here, with the way some people try to force their beliefs on others without any valid proof.
Also, some of the more "materialists" here may be using insults in their posts. This is something I indeed see as offensive. Insulting people in a more subtle way, though, doesn't make it any less frustrating... (nay-sayers materialistic closed-minded....?)
To be perfectly honest, I see arrogance often comming from both sides of the arguement. Often times the more scientific minded people will come here with completely disrespctive responces that are more like taunting, and then other times the more esoteric people come back to a thread with a similar sort of responce. I dont think it has anything to do with new age ideas, or science. It just has to do with arrogance leading people think think they know more than they do. Opinions are great, but that is what most of these things are-just opinions..some are definatily more informed than others though I will admit.
ChaoticMethod
Eye of the Beholder
jamie said:
I agree. I would like to add that, often, I feel totally discouraged to read and answer to a topic when someone comes with that kind of attitude (whichever side it comes from). It often ends up turning the topic in the same debate that goes on and on. I feel that if people kept presenting their theories in a more open, humble way, maybe it would feel more like a sharing of ideas instead of an ego fight.
Of course I read the OP. (as well as every other post here)ChaoticMethod said:
I applaud endlessness for trying to be as fair minded as he is able, but the bias against spirituality is present in the OP, in the title of this thread, and in abundance across the threads that are in question. Go through and read them, and you will see that there is no thread here where (when read in its entirety and not taken out of context) people are trying to prove their subjective experiences objectively or making claims about absolute truth. This is always exclaimed as a defense of the people who do the name calling, but it is simply not the case.
We may not put disclaimers on every single posting, but in the context of the threads... it is abundantly clear that we are talking about our experiences and not trying to convert anyone or make any scientific case for the phenomenon we experience. We are practicing the time honored psychonaut tradition of sharing our anecdotal trip reports. The fact that many other people share very similar experiences while in these spaces... alone makes it a valid topic of discussion.
We don't need to cite peer reviewed journals to recognize that many many people report experiences that seem to indicate that telepathy might be possible and enhanced by psychotropics. Why should we need to cite anything other than our experiences? Our opinions and conjectures about what these things mean are our own to make. And if we choose to mention that reports of these things are very prevalent in the record of human history, this should be forbidden or mocked?
It seems that many of you are missing the point. No one is telling anyone what the TRUTH is. We are sharing our experiences. No one is making claims that need to be backed up because we have nothing to prove. If you think that the 10 people who are sharing reports of telepathy are all liars and crazy, maybe you can click over to another thread rather than repeatedly and willfully calling names and putting people down.
People are already afraid to admit to their experiences and share. Why on earth should we condone an environment where those people who are less able to defend their beliefs than I may be, are made to feel unwelcome? Why should I have to have the same tired exchanges on every single thread where we want to discuss these things?
If you want to ghettoize us, and move all of our threads to the Through The Looking Glass subforum... prohibit the new members from even joining in the discussion... I think this is a big mistake.
Telling us that we need to join another forum entirely? Suggesting that we need to get lost and go to the Shroomery or Ayahuasca Forum because we want to discuss aspects of the entheogen experience that don't fit into everyone's neat little boxes is simply a type of censorship and it is unbecoming of this esteemed venue.
We can do better than this.
The Day Tripper
Rennasauce Man
I see it as science, while providing key elements of fact that further contribute to our understanding of the universe, cannot be relied upon to look at the bigger picture. Things are stranger than we can imagine, perhaps one day we will be able to explain more, but even science cannot break EVERYTHING down into the nitty gritty. There's still much we do not understand, and providing evidence is the key to further the facts and truth about things. But if you follow the belief that things are just so complex they can never be fully understood, theres room for skepticism and theorizing. Whatever that may be.
I do believe we can and will understand much more about the universe and ourselves, consciousness, etc. But theres people on both sides that are right, and wrong. People claiming that this will be this way 100% of the time, are wrong imho. And i see that from the science crowd, and the mystical crowd. Its just a matter of being skeptical of everything, which gives you more perspective on what could possibly be. We still have much to learn about how we interact with the incredibly dense system that is biological life on earth. And assuming that experiments will produce the same results 100% of the time, seems rather crude imho. I mean, quantum physics and entanglement is reproducible and proven, but really theres so much we do not know about it. And that idea proposed 200 years ago would be laughable mystical nonsense.
Basically, before you make claims, have your shit in order to back them up. Whether you are taking about energetic healing, or scientific facts and methods. With that said, i think the scientific method is an extremely valuable tool, it can just be misused to say we understand more than whats really going on. There will always be unaccounted for variables. The entire universe cannot be modeled.
I do believe we can and will understand much more about the universe and ourselves, consciousness, etc. But theres people on both sides that are right, and wrong. People claiming that this will be this way 100% of the time, are wrong imho. And i see that from the science crowd, and the mystical crowd. Its just a matter of being skeptical of everything, which gives you more perspective on what could possibly be. We still have much to learn about how we interact with the incredibly dense system that is biological life on earth. And assuming that experiments will produce the same results 100% of the time, seems rather crude imho. I mean, quantum physics and entanglement is reproducible and proven, but really theres so much we do not know about it. And that idea proposed 200 years ago would be laughable mystical nonsense.
Basically, before you make claims, have your shit in order to back them up. Whether you are taking about energetic healing, or scientific facts and methods. With that said, i think the scientific method is an extremely valuable tool, it can just be misused to say we understand more than whats really going on. There will always be unaccounted for variables. The entire universe cannot be modeled.
tetra
BaconBerry
Wouldn't it be a great achievement in mind control to have set science and spirit against one another? Imagine beings feeding off fear and chaos sitting "up there", fingers steepled, whispering, "Yes, that's it, children, keep fighting, keep sending us those emotions . . . "
*** The above post has not been reviewed by any currently accepted scientific or medical journals and should be burned. Furthermore, no religious or spiritual accuracies are to be found, and this post should should be burned. ***
*** The above post has not been reviewed by any currently accepted scientific or medical journals and should be burned. Furthermore, no religious or spiritual accuracies are to be found, and this post should should be burned. ***
ChaoticMethod
Eye of the Beholder
The Day Tripper said:
Who knows
(Still, I agree with most of your post)
kyrolima
Rising Star
Well, i agree to the idea of provable claims by scientific manners.
But some things are not to be understood by a lot of individuals just because of the fact that they haven't reached the conciousness which enables those toughts as clarifying truth!
Einstein said it:
It's too late to speculate! We act NOW!
Altough anyone who claims his truth is the only truth and has to be "BELIEVED" by anybody else hasn't thought enough of the <<idea of belief>>
I believe that we will always find a "higher" truth.
So it's pointless to argue about claims!
But some things are not to be understood by a lot of individuals just because of the fact that they haven't reached the conciousness which enables those toughts as clarifying truth!
Einstein said it:
It's too late to speculate! We act NOW!
Altough anyone who claims his truth is the only truth and has to be "BELIEVED" by anybody else hasn't thought enough of the <<idea of belief>>
I believe that we will always find a "higher" truth.
So it's pointless to argue about claims!
This divide between the mystics and the materialists is somewhat manufactured by the anti-spiritualist crowd. IMHOjoedirt said:
I haven't seen a single mystic on this forum who was denouncing science or could be considered actually anti-science. The majority of spiritual people I see all embrace science, they just see that it has limits in explaining their experiences.
What I have seen time and time again is people who embrace science, but have an interest in something that lies outside its purview at the moment, being attacked and belittled by people who only believe in science and find the mention of anything remotely spiritual to be unbearable.
Not spirit v. science... but rather anti-spiritualists v. every mention of mysticism (even when expressly labeled as subjective personal experiences).
Atheists tend not just to attack the devout religious and demand they prove their beliefs empirically to the standards they set forth... but they also attack the agnostics for being silly enough to even entertain the possibility that such "ridiculous" notions of the supernatural might actually be true. Forget the fact that you can't prove empirically that the supernatural doesn't exist. They always insist that it is the people making claims that have the burden of proof... and yet, the only claims being made are that people claim to have had certain experiences which they may or may not be able to repeat with confidence.
What I am saying is that there is no evangelism going on here. It is simply a one sided repression of ideas that certain people simply don't like.
We're all just vitamin DMT deficient
and bob wilson deficient, to.
make sure to get your daily dose of each today
and bob wilson deficient, to.
make sure to get your daily dose of each today
In reality, science is what we should call "new age"..more esoteric leanings far outdate the current scientific paradigm..which themselves are sometimes taken far too literal by spiritualists etc who lack the ability to grasp the deeper metaphores in a practice such as alchemy. The fact that most of the people who are responsible for the modern scientific approach themselves were alchemists who definatily could have been described as esoteric in thier beliefs should say something.
The hard core rationalist, anti-anything esoteric approach to science tends to lack any form of elegance in my opinion. It is just ugly. Science is fine..but I mean, there is always going to be a deeper level that is best suited for philosophy and if people want to assume that because something is currently beyond our grasp to test with the scientific method that it is then proven incorrect they are just fooling themselves.
In the end it all comes down to how these sort of topics are adressed. There is something so ugly about people arrogantly going back and forth for 5 pages trying to have the last word. I dont think people should be required to back up an opinion with a peer reviewed study-that is just asinine..but at the same time it should be obvious that these things are just opinions and nothing more. Even then, peered reviewed stidues can be biased and people can jump to conclusions based on what may be presented in them..this is just the way it is.
Claiming it is all about new age bs or whatever is just as biased as anything. Really it is about each persons ability to be a civil human being who can think clearly and remain open minded enough to not just assume when there is not enough evidence either way.
I have seen the name calling from both sides..and I find it to be akin to a sort of social retardation..and we are all guilty at some point.
The hard core rationalist, anti-anything esoteric approach to science tends to lack any form of elegance in my opinion. It is just ugly. Science is fine..but I mean, there is always going to be a deeper level that is best suited for philosophy and if people want to assume that because something is currently beyond our grasp to test with the scientific method that it is then proven incorrect they are just fooling themselves.
In the end it all comes down to how these sort of topics are adressed. There is something so ugly about people arrogantly going back and forth for 5 pages trying to have the last word. I dont think people should be required to back up an opinion with a peer reviewed study-that is just asinine..but at the same time it should be obvious that these things are just opinions and nothing more. Even then, peered reviewed stidues can be biased and people can jump to conclusions based on what may be presented in them..this is just the way it is.
Claiming it is all about new age bs or whatever is just as biased as anything. Really it is about each persons ability to be a civil human being who can think clearly and remain open minded enough to not just assume when there is not enough evidence either way.
I have seen the name calling from both sides..and I find it to be akin to a sort of social retardation..and we are all guilty at some point.
tigerstrike92
Homo-divinorum
jamie said:
^^Amen.
I know that at different times things have come out of my mouth (or fingertips) that literally, 5 minutes later, made me think, "Am I a metally-challenged ass-face?":? But I guess the fact that I'm realizing it is comforting, because then I can make an effort not to say that sort of thing again. We all get frustrated, we all name-call, and we all have prejudice. It's our jobs as intelligent human beings to entertain these qualities as little as possible.
Scientific claim? Back it up scientifically.
Mystical claim? Back it up subjectively.
and please... everything with a grain of salt.
This is how i feel.
I do not believe that science is able to explain everything.
I do not believe that science is able to evolve behind the realms of ego.
Science will always be a reductionist approach to so called spirituality.
But...
I do agree that reason is a worthy tool.
That you just can't spill out unfounded theories and present theem as facts.
That you have to consider your words carefuly.
That this forum embraces critical thinking...
This applies to both ends of the spectrum.
There is no need for science/rationalism and spiritualism to fight.
They both serve their purposes.
But if we are to explain the mystery in terms of the ego,
Using language, Pictures, Videos, Sound
- We should be reasonable
And if we feel that something exist,
It should be presented as such - a feeling, not a fact!
RayOfLight
Rising Star
people should just put 'in my opinion' before they type about these things or maybe we could just assume thats what they mean.
The divide between us here comes down to those that believe their subjective experiences and those that don't, I personally do for a few reasons but to each his own. One of the reasons I do is because so many people report the same experiences.
I do agree with hyperspace fool that we can do better than having all these kinds of discussions in one sub forum and the materialists can be a little harsh but at the end of the day its the travelers forum and I'm just happy to be here.
The divide between us here comes down to those that believe their subjective experiences and those that don't, I personally do for a few reasons but to each his own. One of the reasons I do is because so many people report the same experiences.
I do agree with hyperspace fool that we can do better than having all these kinds of discussions in one sub forum and the materialists can be a little harsh but at the end of the day its the travelers forum and I'm just happy to be here.
The problem with esoteric and new age is that some are good ideas but with others you can't say much about them. Some might even be harmful and others are just whack and leaning towards conspiracy theories whatever angle you look at it (those get removed).
There is also a big difference between dark age alchemy and new age now. In the dark ages it was about the only way to get research done, these days we do not have to fall back to the church to ask permission to do our research. So we do not have to surround our research with Christian and Godly ideas anymore.
On the DMT-Nexus we need critical thinking to make sure no urban legends and (sometimes) dangerous ideas get spread as truth. It was not long ago that people came here asking for ways to potentiate their entheogens in a rather dubious way (again, we removed that).
The subforum Through the Looking-Glass was specifically created for people to talk about esoteric and new age ideas, without them being bashed by the more science minded people. If people chose to post their new age threads in another subforum then it's only normal that they are greeted with skepticism.
So please, keep the esoteric and new age threads in that specific subforum, they are safe there and if they are placed there we know that the scientific approach will not do much good to them. See the DMT-Nexus as a big city with many districts in them, each subforum is a separate district. If someone in a big city walks from the science district into the new age district, they will know it's not a good idea to start shouting how they are all wrong and should stop being new age. Likewise this also works the other way around.
Once an idea in the new age subforum is so good that all people including the science people will see validity in it (even though it might not be a scientific validity!) you will see that it can grow again outside that subforum, an example of this is Yoga! But until such a consensus is reached it is really the best to keep them in safe in the new age subforum.
We can all life with each other here on this site, as long as the respect for each other is alive.
Kind regards,
The Traveler
There is also a big difference between dark age alchemy and new age now. In the dark ages it was about the only way to get research done, these days we do not have to fall back to the church to ask permission to do our research. So we do not have to surround our research with Christian and Godly ideas anymore.
On the DMT-Nexus we need critical thinking to make sure no urban legends and (sometimes) dangerous ideas get spread as truth. It was not long ago that people came here asking for ways to potentiate their entheogens in a rather dubious way (again, we removed that).
The subforum Through the Looking-Glass was specifically created for people to talk about esoteric and new age ideas, without them being bashed by the more science minded people. If people chose to post their new age threads in another subforum then it's only normal that they are greeted with skepticism.
So please, keep the esoteric and new age threads in that specific subforum, they are safe there and if they are placed there we know that the scientific approach will not do much good to them. See the DMT-Nexus as a big city with many districts in them, each subforum is a separate district. If someone in a big city walks from the science district into the new age district, they will know it's not a good idea to start shouting how they are all wrong and should stop being new age. Likewise this also works the other way around.
Once an idea in the new age subforum is so good that all people including the science people will see validity in it (even though it might not be a scientific validity!) you will see that it can grow again outside that subforum, an example of this is Yoga! But until such a consensus is reached it is really the best to keep them in safe in the new age subforum.
We can all life with each other here on this site, as long as the respect for each other is alive.
Kind regards,
The Traveler