New Age theories, "holier than thou" and agressive responses

[Infinite I]

I hate to play the pessimist, but I don't think the nexus is ever going to get over this divide. Someone's ego is going to get bruised when we have subforums like "open discussion" and "philosophy."

Its always been about science though, I mean extracting dmt is science, when I first came there were only a few sections, dmt information, extractions and dmt experiences. Most activity was in the extraction section frequented by scientists who I am grateful too for there work to make dmt so readily available, think people are kinda spoiled when they moan about this site, I mean what was it like when this site didn't exist??? I struggled to find info on extracting and actually listened to people speak about it to learn. mountains and molehills spring to mind, people dont realise how lucky they are having this site, can learn to extract anything and I think this was the initial point, site like this was bound to happen one day and im glad it did thanks to traveler, whats antrocles always saying?? love and gratitude, indeed!! now you can get 2% from mhrb lucky to get .8 and have a decent tek written down when I first went searching and im grateful, though better quality mimosa plays its part but still you get my drift.

 

[Rising Spirit]

We can all life with each other here on this site, as long as the respect for each other is alive.

I feel this is the most important aspect of any forum, mutual tolerance and acceptance. Frankly, I agree with much of what Hyperspace Fool has written. Seldom are one of the "new age" members swaggering their egos about, as if they were smarter or superior to any of the other members of this Nexian community. Most often, the case is that they feel they ARE the other board members, as in the concept of Absolute Oneness (and the singularity of all existent being).

I would like to mildly protest the seeming majority's taboo of using words like: God, Spirit, Divinity, Omniscience and Oneness. I actually miss the old names for the Spirituality (& Philosophy) and the Esoteric subforums, before being interwoven into, Through the Looking-Glass. The Philosophy subforum remains, as it should. At first, I thought there was an innuendo implied, as Alice's Adventures in Wonderland is essentially, a fairytale. Through the Looking-Glass wouldn't be my first choice for a name to a spiritual subforum... but I can roll with the changes.

Still, the more thought I gave it, the more I saw that Traveler wasn't being tongue-in-cheek, just cautious. Life is ceaseless change, after all, so we can all certainly adapt. Is it cool to grumble about the new emphasis to cleanse the word "Spirit", from the Spirit Molecule? Grumble...

I believe it is more than fair to say that most of the spiritually-inclined types, labeled as "new age", are not religious in the traditional sense of the word. Most churches frown upon their members finding God within themselves, directly, as themselves. So too, organized religions are disturbed by such folks perceiving The Unified Field of Being, as encompassing everything in the universe. God -VS- Satan, good -VS- evil, right -VS- wrong... are the nuts n' bolts of the majority of monotheistic religions and their spin-offs. Duality is a very, very popular concept in both, Religion and Science. True enough?

Eventually, I speculate that it will be "science" that discovers the objective proof of the existence of the Indivisible One. I have come to agree with jamie and joedirt, in this regard. By sheer necessity, it will become an Omni-Science. The Science of Oneness. :idea:

So, I implore our more "scientific" family members to refrain from condescending comments, aimed to derail any member whose direct transcendental experience overrides any preconditioning or conventional learning. I have found that in my own personal illusions, nothing I understand is real. Reality is the opiate of the masses (be it religious or scientific).

It is hardly fair nor remotely accurate, to project the implication that those who HAVE had the blessing of merging within The Godhead or "seen the light", are obviously of lesser intelligence and are basically being "ridiculous", than those who HAVE NOT.

Must this follow through as an emphatic challenge those who believe they have touched the eternal? We are human beings and such, possess rationale and intuition. Who intentionally wants to be only half a humanoid? Often we take-on more of one of these polarized mental functions but wouldn't it be best to unite the spheres within ourselves? Just sayin'... 8)

 

[easyrider]

I think it's best to clarify which subjects/topics fall under "new age" or "esoteric" belief systems. Anyone familiar with philosophy will understand that what's unraveling on this forum is primarily an epistemological clash, and, of course, ways of communication are also at fault. I also think it's incorrect to consider critical thinking exclusive to the realm of scientific thought. Personally, I think if this forum is intended to be materialist-oriented (that's not pejorative, either; it is meant in the philosophical connotation), it should be explicitly addressed.

 

[Doodazzle]

I had plenty to say when this thread was still on page 2, but I held back. I'm the new guy here and I also sensed arguing and egotistical nonsense brewing, which I prefered to stay out of... Both sides have presented some good points. However. This thread has not brought out the best in people.


The new agey stuff has been barely present in this forum. Maybe one active thread at a time, that is enough to make the reductionists amongst us feel threatened. Insecurity, I have seen it. I have seen people here lash out, against hyperspace fool in particuliar, in such a way that certainly points out another reason for this reactionary movement against mysticism--insecurity.




The Hyperspace Fool dropped knowlege and wisdom all over the place, demonstrated patience and cunducted his person with integrity and respect. For this he has been relentlessly attacked. I'd have given up awhile ago. These attacks, surely they were not inspired by......insecurity. Inspire of course is a word involving spirit. Why would anyone wish to take the spirit out of the spirit molecule. I remind you to scroll up and look at that banner.


"Exploration of the spirit molecule"



Maybe we just need to use the word 'sumbanall' more often.

 

[ragabr]

Who intentionally wants to be only half a humanoid? Often we take-on more of one of these polarized mental functions but wouldn't it be best to unite the spheres within ourselves? Just sayin'... 8)

It's these comments that grate on me the most, because after interacting with the people they're often directed at, it's farcical.

To call Art VD', Endlessness, Trav and House reductionists, it seems to me that one has to be excessively closed minded and entrenched in their position.

The Nexus has been able to be inclusive with Dorge, Phlux-, Aegle, Rising Spirit, jamie, Ms Minxx, 88, OpticusWrangler and ghostman. (Edit: When I say inclusive, I mean that these members have all been highly valued by the Nexian community during their active periods) All individuals whose expressed beliefs go far beyond any commonly accepted scientific worldview. This indicates to me that something else is at play here.

Unlike what Hyperspace Fool consistently asserts, I have never once seen a persons experience report denigrated, unless they were doing something dumb.

@Rising Spirit, I have to completely disagree with:

Seldom are one of the "new age" members swaggering their egos about, as if they were smarter or superior to any of the other members of this Nexian community.

I'll be happy to provide plenty of references if you would like citations.

 

[Rising Spirit]

Who intentionally wants to be only half a humanoid? Often we take-on more of one of these polarized mental functions but wouldn't it be best to unite the spheres within ourselves? Just sayin'... 8)

It's these comments that grate on me the most, because after interacting with the people they're often directed at, it's farcical.

Understood. Forgive me if I was not making myself clear enough. I simply feel that we are best off, each of us, when we unite our reason with our intuition, as a cohesive whole. All extremes are, by design, limited to their realm and parameter. My implication is that we benefit from exercising BOTH spheres of our brain. It's not wise for our community to continue the tug of war, which is, Spirituality -VS- Science. We can respectfully honor both regions of thought, which is what I got from endlessness' original post. :idea:

Peace, love & light

 

[ChaoticMethod]

I think it's best to clarify which subjects/topics fall under "new age" or "esoteric" belief systems. Anyone familiar with philosophy will understand that what's unraveling on this forum is primarily an epistemological clash, and, of course, ways of communication are also at fault. I also think it's incorrect to consider critical thinking exclusive to the realm of scientific thought. Personally, I think if this forum is intended to be materialist-oriented (that's not pejorative, either; it is meant in the philosophical connotation), it should be explicitly addressed.

I don't think this forum is meant to be materialist-oriented. I think it is meant to be reason-oriented, though.

I fail to see how spirituality should equate with non-sense, blind faith or intellectual obscurantism as some here seem to think.

 

[۩]

Spirituality does little to nothing for the integration of psychedelic knowledge into mainstream medical practices and the like. That is just not the way this world works. To change the public and governments views towards these substances, you need tests, with evidence, that can be repeated, and shown to be effective. Not subjective observations. That is what I think needs to be focused on here. I hope you can see why we feel this way.

Like I said, just take a look at MAPS. They work to design studies that will provide the FDA with data that they will eventually accept, and things like ayahuasca and Iboga could be integrated into our culture to benefit everybody. We are never going to get there rambling about pineals and chakras etc. Do you see what I mean?

This is the essence of why the DMT-Nexus focuses on the scientific side of things. It makes sense to me.

 

[Simon Jester]

But, But... Trolling the crystal-gazers is so much fun! :twisted:

On a seriouser note:
Abstracting The Jav's post... The mystical experience may be incredible and compelling (I don't think any of us can really talk shit, after all, we have the common hobby of diving face-first into the mystery through our pipes, cups and blotters)... but the mystical is just that: A mystery. The Unknown. The direct experience of ignorance that gives us reason to seek and learn. As we learn, the mystery of the psychedelic experience acentotes... what was novel and glorious turns natural and simple, expanding the experience even further into the unknown. This is absolutely bound to leave some users rapt in fantasy, not seeing the forest from the trees...

I'm speaking mostly of my own actions, here... I tend troll during the times in which I lack discipline and neglect the felt presence of Luv, and I know it. This is mostly a letter to myself, but it's relevant to many.

When a user comes in raving half-nonsense/half-delusion built up and away from simplicity by psychedelic fervor, and are called out crazy by the community, it only serves to shove them deeper into the dark night of the soul in which they seem to be the focus of some unknown cosmic conspiracy. I'm sure most of us have struggled through this chapter of life, and can relate. It's challenging, compelling, lonely and risky. It's not easy at all.
This tension and conflict between the "new-agers" and "skeptics" doesn't do anyone any good... It thrusts the crystal-gazing poster further into the Chapel Perilous of doubt fear and wonder, and it also deprives the community (maybe even the race) of an otherwise sensitive, well-meaning comrade who may one day, through his learning and searching, gift us with a little scrap of wisdom that can bring us all up a little bit.

In my opinion, the best interest of both the "out there" user and the community-at-large can be served by encouraging real integration rather than slapping the guy on the nose saying "Get ahold of yourself". We know that the most valuable bits of wisdom we gain from the psychedelic experience are things like sensitivity to our environment, compassion for others, open-mindedness (not sticking to our BS ideals)... The things we hold dear that come as a result of relating the metaphysical to the world around us and ourselves (true alchemy), rather than trying to "decode" visions and strange whispers at the back of our minds into far-out ground-breaking revelation.

As clearly depicted by the evolution/intelligent design conflict, shooting somebody else down and calling them wrong only serves to make the conflict more severe. Instead, sides are brought together by finding the middle-ground between opposing viewpoints, the uniting idea that allows each party to agree on the simple things... the trickier parts just tend to work themselves out after that.

So I think the general jist here is that if we make an effort just to act and communicate with MOAR LUV, the Nexus will be a MOAR LUVING PLACE... and we all know that Luv is the lube that make everything run smoothly.

 

[Phlux-]

i hate religeon but here it comes(i think adults with imaginary friends are lame.)
"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind. " Einstien
religion should be changed to another word tho above

 

[Aegle]

Science and mysticism are both beautiful and completely necessary, i have the utmost respect for both philosophies as they are just two different sides of the same coin. It is really sad though that a divide has been created when there is no need for one to be created, especially at some where like The Nexus... Hopefully as time passes the creation of aggression and segregation will diminish within the community.


Much Peace and Happiness

 

[joedirt]

Spirituality does little to nothing for the integration of psychedelic knowledge into mainstream medical practices and the like.

My primary goal as a member of the nexus is to share and talk about experiences with DMT and the science behind extracting it and other things related to psychedelics. I'm not hear to change mainstream society. I'm hear to discuss my views about the molecule. One of those views is that it opens us up to something that transcends DMT binds with this affinity to this 5HT receptor and with this affinity to this 5HT receptor. Sure that is part of the truth, but for some of us a break through dose of DMT is flat out spiritual.

Like I said, just take a look at MAPS. They work to design studies that will provide the FDA with data that they will eventually accept, and things like ayahuasca and Iboga could be integrated into our culture to benefit everybody. We are never going to get there rambling about pineals and chakras etc. Do you see what I mean?

Yeah I see what you mean. MAPS is a professional non for profit organization with a board of directors and people with actual agendas. We are an internet message board. With a variety of views. and opinions. Are we talking about trying to be like MAPS cause I'd certainly like to be in on it, but as far as I'm aware we are just a group of citizens from around the world with one very important interest: DMT.


If we are talking about completely doing away with all talk of the spiritual side of DMT then I am flat out going to start a sister site for the explicit purpose of talking about the spiritual side of it. However, I still wouldn't allow unfounded claims to be passed off as though they were truths. I'd still want an open minded rational atmosphere to discuss the spiritual side of things. Like someone earlier said. I'm all about being rational. But you can be rational when talking philosophy, spirituality, and science.

We aren't stopping all talk of God or philosophy are we? Just moving it to a different section right? We aren't saying, "this forum is only for the discussion of DMT extraction" are we? Because let me tell ya this place would be a ghost town pretty soon. There is only so much science to the organic extraction of a simple tryptamine alkaloid. In fact I don't think this is really what's being proposed at all.

Peace.

 

[۩]

Beware I used the word focus, joedirt. No, we aren't stopping all talk of anything. I just think we should be focused on the scientific.

Of course there's going to be the phenomenological- This is DMT. We don't even know what it's doing. Over time, however, I believe we can. How would we get there? I believe the answer is the scientific method.

 

[endlessness]

That is not what is being proposed, joedirt, dont worry.. It's just about being clear when speculations are speculations, and keeping the more strictly and focused alternative talk to one area of the forum, and knowing that different posts elsewhere in the forum can be scrutinized respectfully using rationality, critical thinking and a scientific attitude.

HyperspaceFool, I was writting a long answer to you but I decided not to post it. Let's not turn this into an unnecessary back and forth. You have made your point clear that you think we mods are unfair.. Frankly, I dont know how much else to improve, im trying to do my best and all other mods are too. Im sorry you think we are doing this so bad. All I can suggest to you is to push the "report" button when you think a post is innapropriate, or pm me or another mod, and we'll try to do our best. For your part, I kindly ask you to make a special effort in keeping making it clear when you are talking about your own experiences and subjective ideas and when it is an established fact. Also please do not be constantly confrontational and keep hammering the same point about how bad we are, or in a way that polarizes debate on those who believe and those who dont, or condescending to others when you express your experience with one or another thing. Please try to post in a positive way that helps maintaining a good atmosphere, as I asked in the first post, lets make our posts complementary, not mutually exclusive. I hope you can honor this.

To all the ones who will keep being scrutinizing to unscientific conjectures posted as facts, I again ask you please be respectful and post facts to back up your claims instead of emotional venting from accumulated tension of other times when other people were deluded. Re-reading your posts a couple of times or copy pasting it to word and leaving a few minutes/hours before posting is one possible way to be cool-headed and productive about a discussion.

Be well, all of you!

 

[Simon Jester]

Beware I used the word focus, joedirt. No, we aren't stopping all talk of anything. I just think we should be focused on the scientific.

Of course there's going to be the phenomenological- This is DMT. We don't even know what it's doing. Over time, however, I believe we can. How would we get there? I believe the answer is the scientific method.

I once experienced a vision in which the scientific exploration of DMT became the panacea which reunited Science and Philosophy, as it would require science to account for the honest, felt presence of personal experience in their research.
:lol:

 

[nen888]

..after being totally unimpressed by her followers, i once heard Amma G ('divine mother') give a radio talk in which she described her branch of yoga as a science, and described how it could be tested in scientific terms
..when not giving hugs she was remarkably intelligent and rational..
..a lot of 'new age' ideas could be a lot more accepted if the same rules of experimental observation and self-critique adopted by science were applied..this is the key to me in this debate
..similarly, science quoted like the gospel (as relativity and quite primitive neurobiology sometimes are) is not helpful, and can be faith based..i work in psychology which is, to me, often pseudo-science..

experiences which are purely subjective or personal should never be attacked or really debated..we all have a right of expression, it's when people hold up 'universal truths' the feathers start flying...

 

[easyrider]

I think it's best to clarify which subjects/topics fall under "new age" or "esoteric" belief systems. Anyone familiar with philosophy will understand that what's unraveling on this forum is primarily an epistemological clash, and, of course, ways of communication are also at fault. I also think it's incorrect to consider critical thinking exclusive to the realm of scientific thought. Personally, I think if this forum is intended to be materialist-oriented (that's not pejorative, either; it is meant in the philosophical connotation), it should be explicitly addressed.

I don't think this forum is meant to be materialist-oriented. I think it is meant to be reason-oriented, though.

I fail to see how spirituality should equate with non-sense, blind faith or intellectual obscurantism as some here seem to think.

But, who said human reason is lacking amongst spiritualists?

Spirituality does little to nothing for the integration of psychedelic knowledge into mainstream medical practices and the like.

I beg to differ; the very meaning of the word "psychedelic" is spirit-manifesting. If we cannot adopt a holistic medicinal view of the benefits of these substances in regard to mind, body and spirit, then we are only focusing on a portion of the big picture.

It's just about being clear when speculations are speculations, and keeping the more strictly and focused alternative talk to one area of the forum, and knowing that different posts elsewhere in the forum can be scrutinized respectfully using rationality, critical thinking and a scientific attitude.

With all due respect, endlessness, that same attitude could be used against adherents (it seems?) of scientism. A lot of gibran2's posts are exemplary of this, I believe. This whole calamity arises because of a misunderstanding, in my opinion. Either there are established values on this forum, in which certain approaches or ideas are deemed more valuable, or perhaps there should be an assessment (or reevaluation?) by the administration/staff on which values should be desirable for this forum. All in all, I laud the open discourse concerning this theme.

 

[۩]

Actually the definition of psychedelic is "Mind" manifesting. :d

 

[easyrider]

Actually the definition of psychedelic is "Mind" manifesting. :d

"Psyche," from the ancient Greek, is the soul/spirit, while "nous" is the mind/intellect.

 

[۩]

Thanks, didn't know that! I completely agree with you then.