New Age theories, "holier than thou" and agressive responses

[Hyperspace Fool]

Dear Traveler,

I know you mean well, and what you are promoting seems fair minded to you, but I would like to politely inform you that what you are saying smacks of prejudice and only contributes to the popular perception that the Nexus is not a free and open exchange of ideas. I beg you to think more deeply on what you are saying and trying to enforce here.

The problem with esoteric and new age is that some are good ideas but with others you can't say much about them. Some might even be harmful and others are just whack and leaning towards conspiracy theories whatever angle you look at it (those get removed).

This can be said of anything. Science can be plenty dangerous, even when true.

In actuality, we are talking about people's experiences, and a trip report doesn't need a response... and certainly can't be whack. It is just a collection of words that people are able to formulate about experiences that befuddle and bewilder everyone. This is not a place where people come to ask science enthusiasts to judge them and their ineffable experiences with the spirit molecule, but to share with the only people some of us have in their lives who might have a hope of understanding this stuff... other spicenauts.

So we do not have to surround our research with Christian and Godly ideas anymore.

Perhaps you don't see how many assumptions are enclosed in what you have said here. A large portion of the world's population believe in G*d. In most countries, this is not being forced upon them... but something they genuinely believe to some degree or another. We are not all scientists who feel religion and religious ideas stifle our pure pursuit of knowledge. In fact, many scientists are quite religious... theologians even.

Are you really intending to create an environment where a majority of the world's population are made to feel unwelcome?

The subforum Through the Looking-Glass was specifically created for people to talk about esoteric and new age ideas, without them being bashed by the more science minded people. If people chose to post their new age threads in another subforum then it's only normal that they are greeted with skepticism.

So please, keep the esoteric and new age threads in that specific subforum, they are safe there and if they are placed there we know that the scientific approach will not do much good to them. See the DMT-Nexus as a big city with many districts in them, each subforum is a separate district. If someone in a big city walks from the science district into the new age district, they will know it's not a good idea to start shouting how they are all wrong and should stop being new age. Likewise this also works the other way around.

Ummm :shock:

How to phrase this... What you have said here is so insulting and hurtful, that it boggles my mind that you don't see this.

Traveler, you are an amazing and high minded person. We all owe you a debt of gratitude for creating and maintaining this place. I want you to know that I have a lot of respect for the courageous and firm stance you take here and the benefit it has accrued for our community worldwide.

But... what you have said above is ghettoizing and biased in the extreme. Using your own city analogy, you are saying that all people with views that don't match those you feel comfortable with must confine themselves to a narrow and judgmentally labeled area of the city... or their being abused is their own fault.

As someone who has seen this play out in real life, (Gay Neighborhoods, Black Ghettos, Indian Reservations, Brazilian Favelas, South African Townships...) this makes my skin crawl. What you are saying is that some people are second class citizens simply by virtue of who they are. That if they don't change their behavior to conform, they are unwelcome in the vast majority of the city, and must confine themselves to a tiny neighborhood which is clearly looked down upon by the city's power players.

If we were talking about homosexuals, and you said that you had created a neighborhood specifically for them where they could be themselves without fear of being "bashed" by people who find them abhorrent... how would that sound? Furthermore, you go on to say that if they stray from this ghetto, that they can expect to be assailed and assaulted?

We have created a zone amounting to 1/45th of the city where a kind of people who we don't like must go. "they are safe there" Seriously?

So, anyone who comes here wanting to talk about experiences which fall outside of scientific understanding (the majority of spice experiences frankly) must confine themselves to a ghetto that is lovingly called "Through The Looking Glass?" Don't get me wrong, I love me some Alice in Wonderland as much as the next guy... if not more. But this title is judgmental in the extreme, and I don't think that trip reports which involve subtle energies, spiritual beings, astral projection, telepathy, religious experiences, shamanic knowledge or any other of a host of very common themes in entheogenic exploration are such a minority that they need to be put in what amounts to a Nexus "loony bin."

To paraphrase: 'Keep your crazy claptrap in the sanitarium, and you won't be abused and called crazy.' That is the answer from on high?

Once an idea in the new age subforum is so good that all people including the science people will see validity in it (even though it might not be a scientific validity!) you will see that it can grow again outside that subforum, an example of this is Yoga! But until such a consensus is reached it is really the best to keep them in safe in the new age subforum.

You can not be serious with this.

I do not consider myself new-age. My experiences have nothing to do with the money grubbing self-help book writers.

I am a nearly 40 year student of the ancient and practical system of living and wisdom known as Kung Fu. I am a student of Ayahuasceros. I am an avid researcher into mysteries and ancient lore. The fact that (in my subjective experience) I can see and manipulate chi, lucid dream, astral project, throw people many meters without even tensing a muscle, am more resilient to injury than normal, am healthier and look younger than people many years younger than me, and have a very balanced an uplifted mental state... I attribute to my years and years of dedicated discipline with masters of many traditions. None of them were "new age," and many of them come from the very lineages that gave us these wonderful substances in the first place.

Are you really suggesting that we talk about magic mushrooms and not be allowed to mention the beliefs of the tribal curanderos who turned Wasson onto them?

Going back to your city analogy, you are saying that all ethnic minorities (who are actually a majority number wise) need to stay in their ghetto, but if we find something those silly people say or do interesting enough, we can appropriate it for ourselves and strip it from its source. Yoga is fine if you study it at your local gym and don't buy into all those thousands of years of worth of confused ramblings by the people who invented it? Yoga is cool for stretching, but we can't talk about the chakra system, third eye activation, ascended consciousness... unless we all cram into this subforum that you might as well have labeled the Nexus Insane Asylum. That is to say nothing of siddhis, maya, and Hindu gods in hyperspace.

This is like putting all the Indians and Pakistanis in London into a tiny ghetto and then saying that it is okay if they come out to run our curry shops because we can appreciate a good masala from time to time.

We can all life with each other here on this site, as long as the respect for each other is alive.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

I don't find what you have said here to be respectful.

I respect you, and I think we all have a lot more in common than we have that separates us. But if you think that 1 subforum out of 45 to encapsulate everything about the entheogen experience that falls outside of scientific provability is a fair and balanced response, I have to humbly disagree.

Science has no explanation for consciousness at all... let alone why so many people encounter hyper intelligent elves and jesters when visiting timeless realms of wonder... or get downloaded information that they can then use in their normal lives.

People are told that seeing things and hearing voices makes them crazy in the world at large... there are enough people who will chastise and belittle every one of us, science lovers included. Do we really want to encourage such repression here, in a place where people should find some sympathetic ears and others who have had similar experiences?

You may not like it, but the vast majority of the world's population are religious to some degree. I have posted links which show that as much as 70 to 80% of people in the US believe in angels. Are you really suggesting that everyone who has experiences that are not backed up by your fairly specific worldview are to be treated like second class citizens here? Please tell me you are not condoning the abuse and name calling of spiritual, esoteric, mystic, and religious people when they stray out of your subforum for nutjobs?

Say it isn't so Trav.

Say it isn't so...

HF

 

[endlessness]

Hyperspace Fool,

You have some valid points, but I think you are taking it much further than traveler meant, and accusing him of some absurd things. Maybe you should start a new forum and get some first hand experience on how hard (and often ungrateful) work it is to be an admin and a mod (and I say this not in a "get lost!" way, but in an honest suggestion for experiential knowledge, since criticising is much easier than actually being on the other side and having to constantly come up with solutions to issues that the normal users dont even notice because its often done on the background, as well as impossibly please a very diverse group).

The problem we have here, is that the Nexus is known for the reliable knowledge found herein. It's on the basis of the good arguments and reliable knowledge that we have built this forum throughout the years, and taken together with our attitude, is what makes the Nexus so appealing. The idea to create a subforum 'through the looking glass' is not to exclude minorities, but rather to make it clear what is more subjective/experiential ideas and to have a space where they can be freely discussed without an inherent need from the community to question them. This wouldnt have been necessary to make, the subforum, but it was because ften people were not making it clear, it was getting confusing what was actual reliable scientific-based knowledge, and what was actually speculation, tradition-based unproven ideas, etc.

Say for example the whole pineal gland story. IIRC, you yourself in a post talked about the psychedelic tryptamine production in the pineal gland, didnt you? And yet this has never been proven, as we have pointed out in the FAQ. For example with DMT, there have not been found INMT enzymes in the brain that are needed to produce tryptamine. So I think its fine if you say that you have had your subjective experience that feels like tryptamine release in what you consider to be the pineal gland, but if you expose that the pineal gland produces psychedelic tryptamines as if this is an objective fact, that line of reliable info that the nexus is based on, was crossed.

If we start going about the whole chakras, energetic systems, shamanic knowledge and what not, you'll see tons of contradictions. So who are we to trust, the chinese energetic system, ayurvedic knowledge, or shamanic knowledge from Huni Kuin, Ashaninka or Yanomami? They arent the same, they dont talk about the same thing, they dont define the world in the same way, and they are often in contradiction. See, the problem isnt to talk about those things in itself, but when the lines are blurred of what is known and what is speculated, what is objective and what is subjective, what can be proven independently of one's wishes and ideas and what requires belief.

Not only that, but also notice how these things are not passive to any question exactly because they are subjective. As I mentioned in the first post, science has a great aspect which is, it can be reviewed impartially, it can be tested and updated. But if you say you are 100% sure of telepathy and your superpowers, then where is the acceptance you might be mistaken, mislead, misinterpreting something? Or maybe you arent mistaken, but maybe others who are using the same words of chakras and superpowers are. You must have seen yourself in your life, people who were deluded in their mystical ideas, havent you? But they will use the same arguments to defend, and this is a dead-end, its like a wall, that you cannot question because it is unquestionable by definition. So we get stuck, there is no way to continue the discussion except if one accepts blindly that whatever one strongly believes subjectively must be true. But how often was it shown in history of mankind that strongly believing something does not make it true? Do you not see the problem here? Not only for the health of a discussion that can go forward, but also when this is happening, the Nexus is losing the identity which has been the basis of it since the beginning. Maybe you are unhappy with the suggestion that there are other places and forums that might be better if you dont want to be questioned, if you want to freely expose all your alternative theories, but this isnt meant as an offense, its meant as an honest suggestion. Here in the Nexus we would like to maintain it very clear when something is reliable and when something is speculating and subjective, this has been so since the beginning and will continue being so.

You say we are biased, of course we are, just as you are, just as everybody is. We all speak from our unique subjective perspective, nobody speaks from an objective perspective.

Now, Traveler didnt mean to say that we can't talk about anything non-scientific anywhere else in the forum, like for example trip reports. Trip reports are, by definition, subjective tales of one's experience, they cannot be fully defined in scientific terms, and yet they are obviously welcome here! If one mentions they had a telepathic-like experience and its posted in the experience report section, then it is implicit that they had this experience and its their subjective way of interpreting it. And yet, it is also acceptable if someone respectfully wants to ask questions, for example if its possible it wasnt telepathy but rather that one was very in tune, read the body language unconsciously, etc. Dont you think so? Same as with other parts of the forum, it isnt that anything non-scientific cant be mentioned, its that speculation and subjective thoughts should be made clear that they are so and not an objective fact, and if they are posted elsewhere other than 'through the looking glass', dont be surprised if they are scrutinized (respectfully!)

Now, from my own perspective, I will try to make sure that whoever questions the non-scientific knowledge does so respectfully, and im sure other mods will too. I hope you understand where we're coming from and come to accept that we're doing this because we feel this is the way to run this community.

 

[The Traveler]

...

I don't have the time now to reply to you fully, but I can tell you that you are totally twisting my words and I don't appriciate that.

What I'm saying here is that since certain views are impossible to mix, I make a safe haven for each one of them where they can discuss their own ideas wihout other people bashing them. If you chose to pull discrimination into this then you are greatluy missing the point in a very insulting way.


The Traveler

 

[polytrip]

HF, can you proof that you are NOT dreaming, that this life is real? No, because every evidence that this is real could be dreamt-up as well.

In other words, the fact that you have experienced something can never proof that this experience itself was NOT (at least partially) produced by your own brain.

Especially when we know that brains are capable of doing this.

In the past, people have experienced the sun orbitting around the earth. Never realising that the earth may just as well be in orbit around the sun...wich would result in practically the same experience, yet different.

Experience is a personal thing and can never be used to base any authority on.

 

[joedirt]

HYperspace Fool. A few examples.

Anyway, the missing enzyme is not a valid argument against the potential production of DMT by the pineal gland... especially in light of the fact that there is nowhere else in the body that is even a close second choice for an explanation.........Regardless, the fact is that DMT is produced in the human body. I was clear in saying that we don't have proof that the pineal is where it is produced. But, if you know of another place in the human body that is more likely to be the source... please elaborate.

Sure the lungs and the Spinal Coord. As of yet there is no proof DMT is produced in the Spinal Coord.
You are arguing against science that you clearly don't understand. Why? Have you spent time reading the scientific literature in this regard?

I know that my sensitivity to subtle energies is seriously enhanced when my hair stands on end.

Do you? How exactly do you know this?

The truth is Hypersapce I like you. But many of your posts remind me of the wandering false guru's of India. Vague references to powers and other things, but when asked if you could demonstrate it you usually end up in a tirade about how science con't explain everything or how it's silly that peer review is done by scientific peers...would you want a plumber reviewing a particle physics papar? Or a shaman giving feedback on a total synthesis paper?

Quite frankly it's this sort of thing that keeps the divide between science and spirituality. I'm perfectly comfortable in my spirituality as a scientist. I'm interested in the truth and the truth alone. If the truth doesn't agree with my conceptions then my conceptions will change. Not the other way around. I do believe there may be things like areas of energy fields and such in the body that haven't yet been discovered, but I don't take someone's word on it. If you are certain prove it to the world. Be the person that builds the ultimate bridge between science and spirituality.

You are right in that science doesn't know everything. It doesn't even claim to. But when you try and invoke the vedas as proof of psychic abilities I don't know weather to laugh or cry. PROVE IT. For thousands of years man has tried to prove psychic abilities. Where is the evidence? You see this is why subjective data is brought into question in science. Furthermore if you can't reproduce something like telepathy then it's absurd to claim telepathy. At best it was an experience that happened to you...not an experience that you initiated.

BTW Many of the discussions I've seen haven't had anything to do with trip reports. I've also never seen anyone catch flak for what they wrote in a trip report UNLESS they were claiming some divine knowledge was gifted to them...and even then people only ask them to prove it if they are sure.

I agree with you that science and spirituality don't have to be sperate. I also agree that many scientist act as though science was their religion. What can I say people are human. Ignorance can be found all around, but at the end of the day science is reproducible and verifiable. There are spiritual traditions that fit this category. Meditation is a path that can be verified for oneself. I don't completely shut out subjective experience, but I do alway's remember that anything...ANYTHING, generated by this fallible human brain should be in question.

Believe Nothing. Allow for Anything. Question Everything.

When I say I believe nothing. I simply mean I have no beliefs I hold so dear I won't change them in light of evidence to the contrary.

When I say I allow anything I simply mean I allow for literally anything. Aliens, ghosts, God(s), unicorns, and fairies.

When I say I question everything I mean that exactly. I sometimes sit in meditation and literally question every thought and sensations that arises in me. What am I? Where did that though come from? Why did I think it? What part of me is questioning myself? Who am I?, What am I?. Why am I? QUESTION EVERYTHING. I know you meditate. Consider this if you can't lock down who you really are then how can you be so sure of anything at all?

 

[gibran2]

HF, can you proof that you are NOT dreaming, that this life is real? No, because every evidence that this is real could be dreamt-up as well.

In other words, the fact that you have experienced something can never proof that this experience itself was NOT (at least partially) produced by your own brain.

Especially when we know that brains are capable of doing this.

If our current reality is a dream, then wouldn’t bodies and brains also be part of the dream?

…

I haven’t read many posts in this thread, and I’ve stayed away from it because I knew it would turn out the way it seems to be turning out, but…

My advice to anyone, whatever side of whatever fence you happen to be on for whatever issue: If you have nothing positive to contribute to a discussion, then don’t participate in the discussion.

 

[nen888]

..to many the nexus has a reputation for both respectful and intelligent discussion..better than most sites..this is surely the standard to maintain..

clearly the post topic has pushed a few buttons..

it seems the problem is one of 'expression of' rather than actual ideas..

and we should all be glad to be questioned (certainly never abused) , but questioned..it can only solidify ideas..

ps i don't see what's wrong with a little 'genre' division..i wouldn't expect metal heads to listen to new age music, i don't think trav's idea is like south africa used to be or something...

 

[polytrip]

HF, can you proof that you are NOT dreaming, that this life is real? No, because every evidence that this is real could be dreamt-up as well.

In other words, the fact that you have experienced something can never proof that this experience itself was NOT (at least partially) produced by your own brain.

Especially when we know that brains are capable of doing this.

If our current reality is a dream, then wouldn’t bodies and brains also be part of the dream?

That´s true. In other words...there is no absolute certainty on most things.

Therefore we deal with degree´s of certainty, varying from absolute certainty, like the fact that you currently are experiencing that you´re reading this text from some kind of screen, to absolute uncertainty, like the notion that you´re realy reading this text from some kind of screen.

When, on the other hand, you already have accepted (as a fact) that you are reading this from a screen....or in other words, when you´re making assesements about the plausibility of certain scenario´s, within the framework of consensus-reality....consistency becomes quite a relevant guideline.

We´re having discussions within the framework of consensus-reality, that indeed could be a dreamt-up reality. But our arguments aply within this framework nevertheless, because the people we´re trying convince live inside this framework, the facts that we try to asses exist within this framework, etc.

Within the framework we have 'agreed upon' by starting a discussion within it, there are more or less plausible scenario´s. The existence of the body and brain are a fact within the framework.

By saying that you saw a ghost, you already admitted that you believe in the body or the brain, because you're using the framework of consensus-reality to express it. Otherwise you would have expressed yourself rather like: 'in the real world, wich i believe is not this reality where i'm talking to you via the internet, i saw a ghost'.

Because of the existence of a body and a brain within the framework in wich we operate (even if operating there would be virtual), we know that experiencing something like seeing ghosts is something that could be atributed to other things than actual ghosts...within the framework we have already agreed upon.

Otherwise you'd have to add 'disclaimers' to any statement you make: 'i reject the fact that i'm sitting here behind an electronic device and from that context speaking, i saw a ghost..if you believe that you are sitting behind a screen reading this, then my statement doesn't aply to the reality you are in'.
Or something like that.

Otherwise, i'll just assume that you're sitting behind a screen, reading this, and agreeing with the notion that you're sitting behind a screen reading this.

 

[ChaoticMethod]

HF, can you proof that you are NOT dreaming, that this life is real? No, because every evidence that this is real could be dreamt-up as well.

In other words, the fact that you have experienced something can never proof that this experience itself was NOT (at least partially) produced by your own brain.

Especially when we know that brains are capable of doing this.

If our current reality is a dream, then wouldn’t bodies and brains also be part of the dream?

It's actually quite simple. Science deals with probabilities of reproductibility within that dream.

It never tries to define the dream as anything else but a dream. It is only looking for guidelines in the structure of the dream. So far it has proven a very reliable tool. I don't think science ever said that subjective experience is any less real... only, if it is not reproductible, it shouldn't be considered as a guideline, and therefore should be adressed as a subjective experience.

 

[tetra]

I can . . . throw people many meters without even tensing a muscle . . .

Hey! If you ever see me walking my dog through the woods you have to promise to throw me like that! How cool would that be? And my dog doesn't bite.

 

[majesticnature]

A quick statement to help bring some peace and understanding.

We all have to understand that each of us come from immensly different experiences and conditions of life so we all see it from a much different point of view.

Often when we seek the truth is not my side or your side. It is not this or that. It is that and that. There is ussually truth with in both sides of the story. It is a matter of understand that the other person sees something you do not see.

I believe that the truth is infinite because we live in a paradox. I believe that science and spirit are one design.

For instance; the human cerebal cortex is made up of trillions of cells. Who is to say something this well constructed can not demonstrate metaphysic abilities?

I have read much information on this and I tell you some of the richest people in the worlds history have been aware of metaphysic abilities and they have been teaching and applying the use of metaphysics in business since the 1920's.

If you want scientific proof on metaphysics you could read the sourcefield from david wilcock. There is plenty of scientific proof out there in the form of information if your willing to open up to the possibility.

It's this and that. Science AND spirituality.

I'd Like to say that my beliefs are my own and are in no way pressed upon anybody to adopt for themselves. I simply present my point of view.

I see this site as a world-leading community. Let's give each other's view points the respect they deserve.

Obviously someone who grew up in strictly scientific percpective is going to see someone who said they psychicly healed someone an ediot. Someone who sees all creation as god awareneess is going to call the science guy an ediot. I tell you now we have both seen the enomally known as hyperspace. This alone tells us there is some serious stuff going on we do not understand so we need to bridge our understandings not throw mud at each other.

 

[jamie]

I think travs idea of this stuff having its own section is fine. I dont really see where the problem is in just having these discussion in the through the looking glass section.

 

[۩]

The only way psychedelic substances are going to be accepted by society at large for their medicinal and therapeutic purposes is if we maintain a scientific approach about all of this.
The DMT-Nexus is THE place online for this kind of information. It is important to keep this in mind.

I'm sorry, but new age mumbo jumbo just doesn't cut it. We need to stay focused and keep researching. Esoteric personal beliefs with no evidence what-so-ever are going to do nothing for our cause except hold it back and scare off the scientists that would otherwise be attracted to this place and make beneficial contributions.

Just take a look at MAPS for example.

 

[jbark]

@ Hyperspace Fool:

What, exactly, is your agenda? You seem to want this site to mirror your perspective and espouse your world view... Why? Or is it something else you're looking for? And if so, and you are encountering so much conflict here, and the people who love this place, and founded it, and moderate it and frequent it are unwilling to change it the way you want it changed - then why persist so adamantly? I mean, thread after thread after thread after thread...?

What is your agenda? I don't get it... You are an articulate, erudite and clearly well read and presumably well educated person, but you come here insisting that your subjective (and thusfar unproven) experiences and abilities be taken AT YOUR WORD.

If I were to come on to the nexus and say that I speak directly with god, would you believe me? If I said I WAS god, would you believe me? If I came on and said I had abilities that had never directly and REPRODUCIBLY been witnessed by anyone present - for example that I could turn green and fly - would you believe me? Wouldn't it be rather foolish if you did?

Because I am not god. And I have no special abilities. But I could very easily claim to have them, and so could Endlessness, the Traveler or you. So armed with the knowledge that anyone can come on making unchallengeable and unproven claims with equal weight, why do you expect people here to believe your assertions of telekinesis, of astral projection, of telepathy? Making such claims, why would you NOT expect to be challenged? I would never call you the names that you may have been called here by others, but hell, many of those names DO apply to MANY people who make the claims you do. And without proof, how exactly are you different? And you may repeat that you are not trying to convince anyone here of anything, but your entire discourse is based on the assumption that people MUST believe you, and when they don't, you resort to an appeal to tradition and faith and call the doubters materialists, which from your perspective, can be taken as nothing short of a thinly veiled insult of the highest degree...

By way of addressing your comparison of yourself to the many who post trip reports, what you post here are NOT the trip reports of a bewildered and uncertain and humble spicenaut looking for answers or comfort or the spirit of sharing, but rather the posts of someone who believes he knows the TRUTH and is here to teach it. An effective trip report is a big long question. There are no questions in your posts that I see, but rather strong intimations of ANSWERS. Answers that should, on your authority alone, be taken for granted.

None of this, incidentally, has ANYTHING to do with spirituality. NOTHING. To imply that those who do not believe in telepathy, or telekinesis or astral projection or benevolent or malevolent entities are not spiritual people is absurd and, frankly, insulting and unworthy of your intellect.

Now, you can take apart everything I have said here and likely shoot it to pieces. You are very good at that, as you have proven over and over again. And feel free to do so, although I don't really see the point. But do us all a favour and tell us what you want. If it's to change this site, I believe you have your answer. If not, then what?

In simple terms, tell us, what is your agenda?

JBArk

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

Say for example the whole pineal gland story. IIRC, you yourself in a post talked about the psychedelic tryptamine production in the pineal gland, didnt you? And yet this has never been proven, as we have pointed out in the FAQ. For example with DMT, there have not been found INMT enzymes in the brain that are needed to produce tryptamine. So I think its fine if you say that you have had your subjective experience that feels like tryptamine release in what you consider to be the pineal gland, but if you expose that the pineal gland produces psychedelic tryptamines as if this is an objective fact, that line of reliable info that the nexus is based on, was crossed.

I wish you wouldn't misquote me. The quote that I said which got me flamed and called a tirade of names is this:

"When people get really high, the pineal gland can actually throb and pulse. It can also squeeze out a bewildering variety of really good brain chems. While it hasn't been proven that DMT is made there, it is the place that a number of other tryptamines are produced, and the building blocks for DMT are certainly present there. Perhaps if the brain is full of serotonin or melatonin, and the gland is sufficiently stimulated, it begins producing the more trippy varieties of indoles."

Notice, I said can & perhaps, and made it clear in further paragraphs that I was talking about subjective experience of throbbing or pulsing in the area, and not saying with certainty that the gland itself actually pulses. If I tell a physician that I felt a pulsing in my spleen, he doesn't ask me to prove that spleens can actually pulse. I made it clear that we haven't found DMT to be produced in the pineal gland, and was very clear in saying that my subjective experience of stimulating my pineal with a yogic mudra has resulted in a special saliva which has given me the subjective experience of becoming amazingly high in that familiar tryptamine fashion.

I never said what the mechanism of this was, or which chemicals were responsible... because I have no idea. I did mention that such events are written about with much detail in the Vedas and other esoteric writings.

The fact is, that tryptamines are produced in the pineal gland. This (as I showed via link in that thread) is beyond question. Anyone who knows anything about the pineal gland knows it converts serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine) to melatonin (N-acetyl-5-methoxy-tryptamine), a tryptamine that has been reported to have psychoactive effects when combined with MAOI or added to other psychedelic cocktails... an experience I and others here have tested subjectively.

The compound pinoline is also produced in the pineal gland; it is one of the beta-carbolines, and could conceivably potentiate other substances. A claim borne out by studies on rodents which suggest that the pineal gland may influence the actions of recreational drugs, such as cocaine. http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v28/n12/full/1300254a.html

Furthermore, metaphysical speculations about the pineal gland are not new. Rene Descartes (inventor of the scientific method) dedicated much time to the study of the pineal gland, and called it the "principal seat of the soul." He believed that it was the point of connection between the intellect and the body. I suppose this founding father of science (as well as many others) would be banished to the "Through The Looking Glass" subforum as well.

If we start going about the whole chakras, energetic systems, shamanic knowledge and what not, you'll see tons of contradictions. So who are we to trust, the chinese energetic system, ayurvedic knowledge, or shamanic knowledge from Huni Kuin, Ashaninka or Yanomami? They arent the same, they dont talk about the same thing, they dont define the world in the same way, and they are often in contradiction.

Not really. They all say nearly identical things with some very minor differences. The basics are damn near universal. Subtle energies and their effects on the mind and body are spoken of in every tradition I know of. The Chinese call it CHI, the Indians call it PRANA... in Hawaii they call it MANA. No contradiction. The acupuncture charts of Chinese Internal Medicine show meridians which very closely parallel the Ayurvedic charts of the nadis. Again, no major contradiction.

Fact is, that the subtle energies described occultists, shaman, mystics and the like are remarkably similar for information developed independently (often thousands of years apart). Read what Don Juan says about it, and it dovetails precisely with what a Neo-Taoist Pa Kua master would say.

You must have seen yourself in your life, people who were deluded in their mystical ideas, havent you?

Sure. But I have also seen people deluded about the capabilities of their Ipads.

My experiences of telepathy have been strong enough and frequent enough to convince me, and I never suggested that this was proof enough for anyone else. In fact, I have only said the opposite of this on thread after thread. Please, don't believe me. I have no interest in convincing anyone, and I would lose respect for anyone who simply took my word about anything without having had experiences of their own to corroborate.

You say we are biased, of course we are, just as you are, just as everybody is. We all speak from our unique subjective perspective, nobody speaks from an objective perspective.

You have denied this before, but it is nice to see that you recognize your bias. I have never claimed to be impartial.

My perspective is not that of the pure spiritualist here though. I have a very strong science background, and have repeatedly told everyone that I love and respect science... for what it is good at. I use science regularly, and a good look around here will show that I have contributed scientific information here on many occasions. I presented SWIM's happy assurances that TSP can be used as a base, that paraffin lamp oil can be used as an NPS (if it evaps clean)... and works amazingly for growing crystals due to its very slow evap time... even the use of coconut cream to eliminate the burn of insufflated DMT.

I was drawn away from a purely materialist view of the cosmos by my experiences, and I don't think that sharing some of those experiences is any less valid than sharing other things. It is clear when what is being said is subjective. It is clear that we are not claiming to say absolute truths. We get together on a thread where a dozen or more people all report having similar experiences, and someone comes along and calls everyone names. This is what happens. Plenty of people have stopped posting here, and I know a lot more who are seriously contemplating leaving.

I don't think they should leave, and I don't want to leave. I think that the claim that our posting of our experiences somehow drags down the solid info that the Nexus is known for is specious. We are not writing FAQs on astral projection, or posting them our subjective experiences as unassailable truth. And, if you think that normal people unfamiliar with DMT think you guys are any less nutty than you think we are... you might be deluding yourself. To the general public, we are all freaks, criminals and lunatics. Sorry, but that is the case. For you to say that trip reports about meeting Mayan gods in folding rooms of light and awareness is fine, but any mention of astral projection is wacko... is simply bizarre to me.

... its that speculation and subjective thoughts should be made clear that they are so and not an objective fact, and if they are posted elsewhere other than 'through the looking glass', dont be surprised if they are scrutinized (respectfully!)

That is kind of the issue, though, isn't it? It is not respectful to call people crazy and toss invectives around. The fact that even on this thread (and even in Trav's post) it is somehow still acceptable to call our opinions whacked out, loony toons, ridiculous etc.

Mystics aren't coming on the Nexus and starting threads called "Kooky materialist theories, "more rational than thou" and aggressive responses."

I know that you mean well. I know that Trav does as well. But, the fact remains that people are afraid to voice their opinions here. People are afraid to share their experiences. There are dozens and dozens of posters I know of here who are intimidated by this witch hunt atmosphere. I am not. Thus, it often seems like I am a lone voice in the wind with an occasional cheer from the crowd. Many of my mystic leaning (and even religious omg) compatriots here simply don't feel up to the task of standing up for what they believe is right.

I was going to let all this go, a number of times... only to find my PM box flooded with requests to fight on. This is not a case of loony mystics spoiling the cozy and pristine atmosphere here. This is a case of abuse and vitriol being tolerated when it comes from people whose opinions jibe with those of the mods.

I have been a mod (as you may remember me telling you before)... only briefly, and I didn't enjoy it much. So I sympathize with what is a thankless and unpaid job. But I can not help but speak my mind. I am not perfect, but I have pretty well avoided stooping to derogatory terms... and I am willing to go down these long roads with people to dissect issues point by point. You can see that often my most virulent assailants usually apologize to me eventually, and I consider all of them friends.

We don't need a loony ghetto here. Really not.

 

[Infinite I]

The only way psychedelic substances are going to be accepted by society at large for their medicinal and therapeutic purposes is if we maintain a scientific approach about all of this.
The DMT-Nexus is THE place online for this kind of information. It is important to keep this in mind.

Thats a good point house I didn't think of that, science is the only way people will respect psychedelics.

Just wanted to say, the suggestion about going elsewhere can grate Im sure but sometimes it is better to speak about other things on different forums. This was one of the first drug based forums I was a member of and did want to speak about everything here but there are more suitable forums out there for different topics, is the best forum this side of the delta quadrant but there is life out there beyond the nexus lol

 

[Bill Cipher]

Hyperspace Fool - While I appreciate that you believe yourself to be champion of the mystic underdog, you fail to take in the one and only salient detail here: This is The Traveler's forum. It's his house and the rules are his to dictate as he sees fit. If someone walked into your house and refused to remove their shoes after polite, repeated requests to do so, you would certainly be justified in asking them to leave. Why? Because it's your house, your guest is a dick and rule making is your prerogative.

If the structure and mission statement of this forum don't jibe with your personal needs, by all means GO FORTH AND START YOUR OWN. Make a place where you will be free to discuss your throbbing brain, tryptamine saliva or whatever the hell else you're inclined to without any fear of mockery or opinions contrary to your own. I tell you as clearly as one rude man can tell one gentle mystic: YOU ARE WEARING OUT YOUR WELCOME HERE. Take your army of followers and go in peace. Your endless condescension and didactic certitude are simply not welcome here.

 

[lontana da verita]

I hate to play the pessimist, but I don't think the nexus is ever going to get over this divide. Someone's ego is going to get bruised when we have subforums like "open discussion" and "philosophy."

I guess my gripe is when people treat science like a body of proved conclusions and ridicule reports of anything that goes against their conception of it. Many good scientists have accepted evidence of psi. Physics Nobel laureate Brian Josephson, Dr. Gary Schwartz of Yale and Philosopher William James come to mind. I am NOT saying that proves psi exists in any way, but there is certainly room for disagreement even within "science". Another one of my pet peeves is the idea that rationality = scientific materialism. I should also mentioned that evidence itself is subjective as to what constitutes it, thus saying there is or is not "evidence" for something is a subjective appraisal.

That being said, I don't believe vigorous debates in and of themselves were the reason this thread was started...

Traveler, I think I speak for everyone here when I say that I respect you and thank you a great deal for maintaining this forum. I know you can't possibly please everyone. Sometimes I wonder how you do it.

 

[tele]

I'm sorry, but new age mumbo jumbo just doesn't cut it. We need to stay focused and keep researching. Esoteric personal beliefs with no evidence what-so-ever are going to do nothing for our cause except hold it back and scare off the scientists that would otherwise be attracted to this place and make beneficial contributions.

I agree, unless the mumbo jumbo is something one has experienced in his/her DMT journeys.
The thing sometimes is, that the things people experience will rarely be reasonable or scientific in the eyes of the scientists. Before the interest of scientists I think comes the importance of sharing ones views and thoughts about things one has experienced "out there"(which is something probably every DMT traveller is interested in), even if they seem to be impossible. Evidence, for hyperspace travel? Tough one...

 

[VoidTraveler]

Furthermore, metaphysical speculations about the pineal gland are not new. Rene Descartes (inventor of the scientific method) dedicated much time to the study of the pineal gland, and called it the "principal seat of the soul." He believed that it was the point of connection between the intellect and the body. I suppose this founding father of science (as well as many others) would be banished to the "Through The Looking Glass" subforum as well.

That's just nonsense. Isaac Newton was a devoted Christian and therefor Christianity must be true because SIR Isaac Newton was a scientist. Hell, he was even knighted for this advancements in science. Just because someone came up with proper science in one field doesn't mean their ideas / hypothesis in other fields should be believed on their words alone.

You are comparing apples and oranges with each other. Descartes might've invented the scientific method, his findings on the pineal gland and it being the seat of the soul are not interconnected. Descartes believed that only human beings had minds and therefor were the only creatures on planet earth capable of experiencing pain and then happily started live dissections of various animals. Trust me, animals feel pain and when cut them open while still alive they will feel plenty of it. The ideas of Descartes are purely of philosophical matter without scientific backing. Science wasn't advanced enough in that time to come up with information based on the scientific method.

My perspective is not that of the pure spiritualist here though. I have a very strong science background, and have repeatedly told everyone that I love and respect science... for what it is good at. I use science regularly, and a good look around here will show that I have contributed scientific information here on many occasions. I presented SWIM's happy assurances that TSP can be used as a base, that paraffin lamp oil can be used as an NPS (if it evaps clean)... and works amazingly for growing crystals due to its very slow evap time... even the use of coconut cream to eliminate the burn of insufflated DMT.

So you've managed to contribute to the science part. Good job, I applaud your efforts and thank you(That was not sarcastic). But again, just because you did so doesn't mean your other ideas are true. They lack scientific backing. Even if the pineal gland is capable of processing serotonin into melatonin that still doesn't prove it's capable of creating other tryptamines. Your hypothesis lacks proper backing as it's purely based on speculation. Let me give you an example: Before the people at CERN started building the LHC they had mathematical backing on the existence of the Higgs-Bosson particle. Without that backing nobody would have pumped billions and billions of euros into that project.