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New DMT Tek at Erowid

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[quote:8aecc5e530="Noman"][quote:8aecc5e530="Salvia_Antics"] How long did it take for them to post it?[/quote:8aecc5e530] I first sent it back in October. It still wouldn't be up without Zhah's kind persistence.[/quote:8aecc5e530] :D cheers Noman -z
 
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I say this all the time, forgive me if you've heard me rant already ... BUT I feel that 'tek' is not a very good one - cheaper, and riskier ... but not really 'any 'quicker... and the results are a smaller yeild, guaranteed ! And purity - any worries about that..?!? When following this tek you are using up to 10,000 times more Lye than needed to change the pH to 10.5 - 11 ... why ..? that risks contaminating the dmt, however well you 'wash'. Why skip the acid extraction step ..!? Who of our swims is really Organic-Chemist-enough to explain the logic in skipping out a crucial step for extracting tryptamines from plants..!? This new erowid tek is one I would NOT recommend. If you only get a yield of 0.5% as cited in this new 'tek', which is a maximum, this result is really poor .. imo ... You have lost 33 - 50% of the spice and your result is contaminated by lye if you are sloppy. A yeild of 0.67% - 0.87 or even higher are the norm, when done right, from MHRB. For the sake of health, sharing knowledge, and being safe - thanks for letting me rant. ... So let's spread it around. I feel that much is missing in that 'new' Erowid tek. ... Am I just the only one who's bothered by the lack of chemistry? Does TIKAL reccomend this method .>!@? .. what am I mis-informed on ..? Can some one shut me up, telling me why it's ok or 'good' to skip the acid extraction..?
 
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im not brain suregeon for any matter but i think that the reason on skipping is becouse.....mhrb is not green.. if you get that it does not have chlorophil... i could be completly wrong.. im geussing, but the reasdon for the acid step is to defat... no need to defat becouseee theres no fat! and i think this tek is fine..... no matter what your going to get lye in your solution... its not hard to get out.. its laziness ps sorry if i sounded like a dick everything was off the top of my head i have real no clue on if its right, anyone back me up?
 
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El Ka Bong - while I understand your concerns, unless you have tried this tek side by side with a standard A/B, you really don't know what you're talking about. Just to be fair I'll even give you this hint - you have to basify (yes, even with an A/B) to at least 13.5 to get all the alks and avoid nasty emulsions. BTW - I wasn't aware that Tihkal contained extraction procedures, I thought it was all synthesis.
 
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I think this a fine approach for MHRB as it's not very fatty like acacia bark or psychotria leaves (fats / lipids / oils etc.. cause problems, not only chlorophyll) but i have to partially agree with Sir Bong, those values are crazy! suggesting that for 1 kilo of bark, you'd use 15 litres of water, 1 kilo of NaOH, a one litre of Naptha per extraction, you'd need a 20L carboy to work a single kilo !! really you should have no problem working a kilo in a 5L jug 😉
 
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[quote:cc7806e015="Coschi"]I think this a fine approach for MHRB as it's not very fatty really you should have no problem working a kilo in a 5L jug [/quote:cc7806e015] Thats what a lot of these guys have tried to do and they're getting mud because there's not enough water. As far as the lye goes, keep in mind that it isn't just for basification of already dissolved compounds, its doing all the work of an acid cook as well. He arrived at the gram for gram figure that he did by starting at 5% of that and working up. He rounded his figures up and threw in a bit for good measure since erring on the high side doesn't really hurt anything. For big batches, my friend just uses two HDPE 5gal buckets and has no problem. And if you guys want to throw yield figures at me, (BTW - I welcome the criticism, really) they're going to have to be relative to something. "I got XX% from blah blah" means nothing unless you're using the same bark as my friend. So if you want to discuss yields, you're going to have to do side by sides.
 
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[quote:e7c7933173="Noman"] Thats what a lot of these guys have tried to do and they're getting mud because there's not enough water. [/quote:e7c7933173] hehe i know exactly what you mean, but that doesn't mean you can't work with it. i've done a kilo of acacia in about four litres 'straight to base' method. The key here imo is: 1. working with powdered, not shredded, bark 2. giving reasonable time for particles to settle 3. allowing more time for separation 4. ensuring the mixtures are always kept hot if the bark is powder, then by volume i found a ratio of 3:1 (water:bark) to be fine [quote:e7c7933173="Noman"] As far as the lye goes, keep in mind that it isn't just for basification of already dissolved compounds, its doing all the work of an acid cook as well. He arrived at the gram for gram figure that he did by starting at 5% of that and working up. He rounded his figures up and threw in a bit for good measure since erring on the high side doesn't really hurt anything. For big batches, my friend just uses two HDPE 5gal buckets and has no problem. And if you guys want to throw yield figures at me, (BTW - I welcome the criticism, really) they're going to have to be relative to something. "I got XX% from blah blah" means nothing unless you're using the same bark as my friend. So if you want to discuss yields, you're going to have to do side by sides.[/quote:e7c7933173] well i really can't comment as i've never worked with MHRB, but i guess the massive amount of lye used correlates to the huge amount of water too. As i mentioned before, following these values, 15 litres of water with 1 kilo of lye. Keeping the ratio, three litres of water uses 200 grams, even this is massive overkill imo i'd say 100 grams should be more than enough, but by the time you're finished you'd probably get through 200 anyway (if you use your lye to bring the heat of the mixture up - i do) if you haven't already have a look at the nook just fyi, the majority of the people there are using MHRB and the amounts of water, lye, and shellite tend to be leaning more towards marsofolds tek average yields of an experienced person on good quality bark is around 1%
 
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All we want to do is get all the precious dmt out of the MHRB. That is easy when you have water ! 150 g MHRB will yeild 1.05 - 1.2 grams of pure, white dmt, if you do it right... THE MOST IMPORTANT FACT ! - dmt is soluble at pH 2 - 4..! At pH 2 - 4 all the dmt is happy and safely dissolved, invisibly in the acidified, PURPLE extract. The acidified water protects the dmt since at pH 2 - 4 dmt has a 1+ charge. So you make a crock-pot of ACIDIFIED water first. This is stable enough that it can be stored for a while in the fridge ... MHRB does not need defatting - it does have some yellow, fragrant oils, and these are GOOD ! - the oil pools out in the evpoartion tray, or you can freeze-sep to get no oils. The oily dmt is definately different in its effects, than the white, oil-free crystals. The lye stage needs to be quick !.The only reason for the jet-black coloured Lye stage, is to make dmt insoluble in water. This stage is a torturous, oxidatively-scary and dmaging time for the precious dmt molecule... ! Lye is scary stuff ! Dmt is in hell when the solution goes black ! dmt needs the naphtha layer to be there as soon as the pH goes alkaline ... at pH 10 and above dmt becomes insoluble and mixes with all the grunge in the black water if there's no naphtha layer around !. A pH of 10 to 11 is Bad enough ..! so if the basified solution is warm, ( say 22 - 50 deg C) then pH 13.5 is really really chemically damaging to dmt ! A pH of 13.5 - 14 is 1000 to 10,000 times more alkaline than needed ! Apparently those lye-and naphtha extracts left over night will yeild cruddy, cob-web like crystals - (lye contaminated)... Lye is a dangerous contaminant you have to 'wash' out, causing one to loose even more yeild etc etc ... But , are there any bonafied chemists out there..!? I'm just one opinionated kitchen chemist, here, trying to get to teh bottom of it ... And alongteh way, I will try to convince people to be safe and informed, and not spreading bad ideas ... for eg: I would never throw out 50% or more of my precious yeild or valuable MHRB ! ... or I never risk health and sanity of me and my fellow lab rats... simple ... That Erowid Tek is a hack method - I liken it to grinding the gears because you won't take the time to LEARN HOW to drive a standard car ... !
 
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[quote:bd0121e68b="Noman"]Your notes are duly noted. And as soon as you've actually started working with MHRB, I swear I'll start giving them serious consideration. :p[/quote:bd0121e68b] hehe well let me try again in that case :? something to think about: acacia bark, mhrb, or leaves of some funky plant will all more or less behave the same the acacia bark is some oily shit, as is any leaf - defat is necesary mhrb is 'apparently' not oily enough to require a defat (although it wouldn't hurt) - this is fine, whatever, go nuts my friends but the point is, all you're doing is extracting the dmt right? say my acacia has 0.5% so i expect 5 grams out of a kilo.. say your mhrb has 2%, so you expect 20 grams out of a kilo... this does not mean you need to work with four times the amount of liquids i can happily dissolve 1 gram of dmt in around 20mL of shellite i'm assuming you could too (afterall, we are both working with n,n-dmt) whatever you're working with, yields will vary but not to such an extent that you need to work with litres of shellite as opposed to 300mL at a time because you're totally overloaded with spice from a 500g MHRB extraction.. 😉 however though, working with such large amounts of liquid will only reduce your losses, so essentially you may well get more out of a technique like this anyway anyway, you can quite easily make comparisons between mhrb and acacia and psychotria and whatever else you like
 
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[quote:7255d97810="Noman"][quote:7255d97810="Coschi"]say your mhrb has 2%, so you expect 20 grams out of a kilo...[/quote:7255d97810] 2%! Who in the fuck is getting 2% out of MHRB? Not 2% pure white crystal anyway. Not from a kilo that cost less than 200 USD anyway.[/quote:7255d97810] yeah i over-exaggerated my point is that even with significantly different yielding plants, the process and even the amount of materials used are going to be pretty much the same
 
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I started here: Erowid DMT Vaults : Extraction : QT's DMT Extraction Guide And I understand each step in detail so I can modify volumes etc as I need. It's really simple - nothing 'hard-core' about what H+ does to dmt etc... So use 150 g pulverized MHRB in 1250 ml of distilled H2O (1 cup per 30 g MHRB). Use a gallon wine jug with stopper. Acidify the water and MHRB with < 30 ml 35% HCL - this makes a pH 2. Then heat to 50 Deg C for 1 - 3 hours, and shake the jug often. Filter the now Burgandy coloured extract to remove ALL particles, and gunk. Re-extract the gunk with 5 cup of water at pH 2 two more times. Use the filtered acid extract in the lye-stage, trying to keep naphtha in contact with the black, pH 11 solution for 30 min or less. No chemist, or any body who understands what they are doing, would ever skip the acidified extraction step - it's proper procedure. Imo, if you skip the acid-step it is because you don't understand what you are doing, and have never understood what make dmt soluble. Perhaps it follows then that those who skip the 'proper' procedure won't care about yeild or maybe even purity and the risk to health and safety. An analogy with cars again - When you fill your gas tank with gas, any grade of gas by paying good money for it, why would you then drive the car so poorly that you drive only half as many miles than usually, before needing a refill.? You can get twice the mileage from 1.0 kg MHRB when you drive correctly or 'properly', by not skipping the acidified stage. The psyiological effects of lye contaminated dmt are BAD ! Just go smoke some lye to get a feel for that ..! or put a grain on your tongue ! And the effects of lye-corrupted dmt are also BAD ! I call it like "getting run over by the Hyperspace bus, but NOT getting picked up for the ride - instead you get dragged behind ..!" So .. still nobody has given good reason to skip the acid-step - I sense that people just don't care and they'll smoke anything, regardless of yeild and quality, and health and safety ...
 
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