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On the naming of 5-MeO-DMT

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I originally posted this in Why DMT Scares Me, but to not further derail that thread, I think it's better to continue the naming discussion here. So tagging @Panpsychic , @Varallo , @The Traveler .

@Panpsychic , if DMT were to be always called N,N-DMT , consistency dictates that 5-MeO-DMT should always be called 5-MeO-N,N-DMT. The reason "N,N" is not usually included in "5-MeO-DMT" is the same as the reason it's not usually included in "DMT".

Why do you fear novices will confuse 5-MeO-DMT with DMT, and not "5-MeO" with any of the other 5-MeO compounds? Particularly when many of those are also legally available in many places, whereas DMT is mostly not. Thus a novice is likely to come across a website offering a wide range of 5-MeO compounds.

You can't control how people will misinterpret anything, but being purposefully inconsistent makes it more likely, not less. Why would a substance be fully named after having a certain radical at a given position? Where is that position, a position of what? Whereas 5-MeO-DMT is consistent: the MeO group is in the 5th position of the DMT structure. There are other molecules that have other radicals at various positions, and then there's the DMT structure without any additional radical: DMT. With consistency someone can aspire to eventually understand it. The lack of consistency only adds confusion.

The reason it's often called "5-MeO" is more likely that it's often misconstrued as being one of the "two types of DMT". While DMT has been called DMT since the beginning and is called "DMT" consistently in the literature, the name "5-MeO" is only present in the likes of Reddit. Can you find a non-forum source that calls it 5-MeO (possibly excluding self-published books)? Likewise with calling DMT "N,N".

As for "bufo", it's a terrible name as it would be logical to think it refers to bufotenin. According to Wikipedia, the international nonpropietary name is "mebufotenin", which would be a better name if anyone knew or used it.

Call DMT "N,N-DMT" if you want: it's consistent and correct. But don't call 5-MeO-DMT "5-MeO".
 
I originally posted this in Why DMT Scares Me, but to not further derail that thread, I think it's better to continue the naming discussion here. So tagging @Panpsychic , @Varallo , @The Traveler .
Thanks for creating this thread as I think its important.

@Panpsychic , if DMT were to be always called N,N-DMT , consistency dictates that 5-MeO-DMT should always be called 5-MeO-N,N-DMT. The reason "N,N" is not usually included in "5-MeO-DMT" is the same as the reason it's not usually included in "DMT".
We are speaking now of chemical precision, which is different to common usage.

As you point out, even 5-MeO-DMT isnt strictly accurate its 5-MeO-NN-DMT. However the extra NN is unnecessary as the main purpose is to identity the compound as distinct from others when discussing.

Why do you fear novices will confuse 5-MeO-DMT with DMT, and not "5-MeO" with any of the other 5-MeO compounds?
Because of the vastly more media and discourse around DMT and 5-MeO-DMT than with other much more rare 5meo compounds.


I first want to share from personal experiences which I alluded to before. Going back many years I had a fair amount of experience with Psilocybin and LSD but not yet DMT. I wanted to try it when I got the chance and would search online about it. Inevitably, some of those searches would bring up 5-MeO-DMT experiences, and there was definitely a period of time where I conflated the two as being about the same thing. I know I am not alone in this afterall, it was assumed that it was referring to the same thing as DMT is in the name and this mistake has led to documented serious health consequences and even deaths from lack of awareness.

The main danger here and risk, is of inexperienced or new people confusing DMT with 5-MeO-DMT as these are the most widely available.

The issue is much less imo of people confusing 5-MeO-DMT with other less common 5-MeO compounds.

However I agree there is therfore a risk with both using a shorthand 5-MeO, but arguably a greater risk for noobies of using the fuller name 5-MeO-DMT of confusion with it just being 'DMT'.

The reason it's often called "5-MeO" is more likely that it's often misconstrued as being one of the "two types of DMT".
Exactly this yes.


While DMT has been called DMT since the beginning and is called "DMT" consistently in the literature, the name "5-MeO" is only present in the likes of Reddit. Can you find a non-forum source that calls it 5-MeO (possibly excluding self-published books)? Likewise with calling DMT "N,N".
This isnt about arguing for obscure academic references but for real world application. As you mention "5-MeO" has become the common usage in the real world precisely to stop inexperienced people confusing it with standard NN-DMT. Adding the suffix 5-MeO-DMT while keeping the standard suffix free 'DMT' doesnt resolve this potential confusion but could perpetuate it.


As for "bufo", it's a terrible name as it would be logical to think it refers to bufotenin.
Bufo does refer to Bufotenine. Its just that some don't realize some toads secrete 5-MeO-DMT and some Bufotenin so they think all toad secretions are the same. I have met experienced 5-MeO-DMT facilitators calling it Bufo which tells you how widespread this issue is.


Call DMT "N,N-DMT" if you want: it's consistent and correct. But don't call 5-MeO-DMT "5-MeO".
I am saying that calling 5-MeO-DMT by its full name, but just using DMT is potentially risky.
If the fuller term 5-MeO-DMT is used consistently then NN-DMT should probably also be standard use on here.

This isnt about if 5-MeO-DMT is also technically 5-MeO-NN-DMT, or if DMT has been used in the literature before these other related compounds became much more widespread, but about not conflating the two substances.
 
I've met people who were introduced to 5-MeO-DMT without knowing anything about it, it was presented to them just as "a frog" ( not even "a frog secretion" or similar).
I would not put much hope into "5-MeO-DMT vs. N,N-DMT".
 
Because of the vastly more media and discourse around DMT and 5-MeO-DMT than with other much more rare 5meo compounds.
But as I see it, that increases the risk of other 5-MeO compounds being confused with 5-MeO-DMT. Precisely because few people talk about them, wouldn't it be logical to think that 5-MeO-DALT is "5-MeO" when coming across it? For the exact same reason some people may think that 5-MeO-DMT and DMT are the same thing. With one important difference: there are lots of articles, posts and disclaimers pointing out that 5-MeO-DMT and DMT are different substances, while there are close to none for "5-MeO" and all the other 5-MeO compounds.

The main danger here and risk, is of inexperienced or new people confusing DMT with 5-MeO-DMT as these are the most widely available.
They're the most popular, but most 5-MeO compounds are much more available than DMT. Looking for "5-MeO" will lead to many stores selling a wide array of 5-MeO compounds. If looking for 5-MeO, why not get any of them?

As you mention "5-MeO" has become the common usage in the real world precisely to stop inexperienced people confusing it with standard NN-DMT
I'm not sure of that. I think it's more likely that it has come to common usage because it's shorter and it's a way to "tell apart the two types of DMT". It's more likely to come from inexperienced people that conflate the two than to stop them from harming themselves. But both of these are hypotheses.

Bufo does refer to Bufotenine
I've seen it used to refer mostly to Bufo alvarius venom, to the point that they call synthetic 5-MeO-DMT "synthetic bufo". An example, and there are many more: What's the difference between bufo and 5 meo synthetic? - r/5MeODMT It makes sense if some people use it for bufotenin, but there's definitely a lot of confusion there too.

This isnt about if 5-MeO-DMT is also technically 5-MeO-NN-DMT, or of DMT has bee ln used in the lierature before these other related compounds became much more widespread, but about not conflating the two substances.
I agree that the point is not academic correctness by itself. But academic correctness has the advantage of having an internal logic that can be learned and understood. "5-MeO refers ONLY to 5-MeO-DMT and not to the rest of the 5-MeO compounds because we've guessed that calling it like that will avoid people confusing it with DMT while somehow not causing confusion with other 5-MeO compounds" doesn't have that.
 
As to calling DMT "N,N-DMT": it's fine and it can be good to disambiguate sometimes. But I don't think it's necessary to always do that: a search for DMT will lead to the DMT article in Wikipedia, etc. I think the reason some people have conflated 5-MeO-DMT and DMT is not because of the "DMT" part in their names, but because they both are usually vaporized and can result in a short but extremely intense experience. And that's why substances like 4-AcO-DMT have never been conflated with DMT despite having "DMT" in their name.
 
As to calling DMT "N,N-DMT": it's fine and it can be good to disambiguate sometimes. But I don't think it's necessary to always do that: a search for DMT will lead to the DMT article in Wikipedia, etc.
We are then taking a calculated risk, saying that we are using 5-MeO-DMT with the suffix to differente from other 5-MeO compounds, but using standard DMT instead of NN-DMT in the assumption most people wont conflate 5-MeO-DMT with just being 'DMT'.
The point is people may search and find all this info on DMT, but may still assume when they come across 5-MeO-DMT that thats the substance its talking about. Thats what occured for me initially.

I think the reason some people have conflated 5-MeO-DMT and DMT is not because of the "DMT" part in their names, but because they both are usually vaporized and can result in a short but extremely intense experience. And that's why substances like 4-AcO-DMT have never been conflated with DMT despite having "DMT" in their name.

It's definitely due to both these factors.

Having two very different substances each with DMT in the name, both generally taken the same way of smoking/vaping is potentially dangerous and perpetuates the confusion.
 
To me it seems like a historical cultural progression. I may have got it wrong, but was there not a time when the designer drugs were either not yet created or not well known, and people only knew about DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, psilocybin, mescaline, LSD, Salvia, and MDMA (perhaps the original designer drug?)? You could say I got stuck in that era. I live in my own universe, and it doesn't include lab made drugs beyond those above. Limiting myself to plants is a conscious choice I feel is to my benefit. Also, my mind categorizes DMT, 5-MEO-DMT, and bufotenine together, as the endogenous (and widespread in nature) psychedelic tryptamines, and thus gives them much more priority and significance over any other xxx-DMT or 5-MEO-XXXX. So just 5 is 5-MeO-DMT for me (a person who doesn't have any possibility of ingesting different xxx-DMT's or 5-MEO-XXXX's 😆).

I just explained my own mental model and I am not claiming to have authority to advise how the naming should be conducted in the public domain, which I obviously am not in touch with.
 
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I don't think both cases are equivalent. There is a reason DMT has no preffix: it has no additional radicals. The reason may not be obvious at first, but it exists and can be understood. Using the name of a radical in a position without the part that indicates in what structure that radical is located has no method behind, only some guesses or convenience.

Learning something will always require some effort, but it's much easier when there's some reason and logic behind. When I started learning I also didn't know what "fumarate", "freebase" etc. meant. I could learn it because there's some method to it. If it were random or based on what someone guessed people might misinterpret it would have been more confusing and difficult to understand, not less. For example, calling the salts something other than DMT "in order to prevent people from mistakenly attempting to vaporize the salts" (people do attempt to vaporize salts regularly).
 
I am grateful that it landed as "The DMT Nexus' and not "The Deems Nexus'

Is it just me? Drives me nuts when someone calls DMT, deems.

Totally agree with you Jamie. I think it's best for anyone who is to engage with psychedelics of any type, to first learn about the medicine they are ingesting. If they cannot do so, they should move along.

I think there is so much information out there now, it is readily available for anyone who has access to a computer. To ingest any psychedelic without prior research is willful ignorance. There will always be this certain group that slides into these substances blindly and harm is caused no matter how much you attempt to prevent it.

I think it's worth the debate to fiddle out some ideas of how we could further add to harm prevention. Nothing ever wrong with adding an ounce of prevention to save a pound of cure.

I have a feeling that the 'deems' folks could care less what you call it and would wander straight into a lions den even if you placed a large DANGER sign in front of the den with the picture of a lion, flashing red lights and 10 people yelling 'Don't go in there' and some will still venture in.
 
I think the heart of this issue is linguistic and also encompasses the intersection between nomenclature in professional science and the colloquial [mis]understandings of the public and lay people that may have interests in these things, but don't grasp how the systems that study these things on a technical level work.

Technically, there are a whole bunch of "DMT" molecules; psilocybin, psilocin, bufotenine, 5-Meo-DMT, N,N-DMT, etc. Some of this also has to do with how easy it is to say something. Saying "psilocybin" is easier than saying "4-PO-DMT" just as saying "DMT" is easier than saying "dimethyltryptamine."

Just naming this as I feel it can bring cohesion to the clarity we're striving for.

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Yes, if 5-MeO-DMT had a widespread name easier to type and pronounce this wouldn't be an issue. Sadly "mebufotenin" didn't catch on. Neither did "Jaguar", the nickname Metzner used for it. I personally like the proposal @dithyramb made elsewhere, "alvarin", but currently no one would understand it without clarifying it refers to 5-MeO-DMT.
 
Yes, if 5-MeO-DMT had a widespread name easier to type and pronounce this wouldn't be an issue. Sadly "mebufotenin" didn't catch on. Neither did "Jaguar", the nickname Metzner used for it. I personally like the proposal @dithyramb made elsewhere, "alvarin", but currently no one would understand it without clarifying it refers to 5-MeO-DMT.
The introduction and evolution of terms into the public is a voracious hydra no one can really control.

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Yes, if 5-MeO-DMT had a widespread name easier to type and pronounce this wouldn't be an issue. Sadly "mebufotenin" didn't catch on. Neither did "Jaguar", the nickname Metzner used for it. I personally like the proposal @dithyramb made elsewhere, "alvarin", but currently no one would understand it without clarifying it refers to 5-MeO-DMT.
I kind of wonder if there is a way to have a prompt on the forum. In this prompt, if someone says only "5" or "5-MEO" in certain contexts there could be a prompt asking which specific compound. Pending the answer, once the post button has been hit, one of the terms mentioned above can automatically follow the original poster's use in parenthesis.

This could help limit ambiguity and increase safety. @The Traveler Thoughts?

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It sounds like a good idea.
Probably a script could be served that checks the contents of the textarea after InputEvent-s and looks for "5-MeO" and its variants followed by a space. If found, it could be highlighted and have some drop-down or pop-up that says "which one"? And if not clarified, it could appear I the final post as well.
But maybe Xenforo already offers a way to do this kind of checking.
 
Catching up belatedly after my holiday...

N,N-dimethyltryptamine's original name on (re-)discovery as a natural product was nigerìna or nigerine. I don't see that one catching back on any time soon...

I used the full name of the compound to distinguish it from dimethylterephthalate and dimescaline tartrate and ... ;)

The introduction and evolution of terms into the public is a voracious hydra no one can really control.

One love
I'm reminded of this tale:
Quiz - Wikipedia
The earliest known examples of the word date back to 1780; its etymology is unknown, but it may have originated in student slang. It initially meant an "odd, eccentric person"[a] or a "joke, hoax". Later (perhaps by association with words such as "inquisitive"), it came to mean "to observe, study intently", and thence (from about the mid-19th century) "test, exam."[2][3]

There is a well-known myth about the word quiz that says that in 1791, a Dublin theatre owner named Richard Daly made a bet that he could introduce a word into the language within 24 hours. He then went out and hired a group of street children to write the word "quiz", which was a nonsense word, on walls around the city of Dublin. Within a day, the word was common currency and had acquired a meaning (since no one knew what it meant, everyone thought it was some sort of test), and Daly had some extra cash in his pocket.[4] However, there is no evidence to support the story, and the term was already in use before the alleged bet in 1791.
We could try flooding reddit with dozens of glowing "alvarin" reports, but that's probably unethical.
 
Catching up belatedly after my holiday...

N,N-dimethyltryptamine's original name on (re-)discovery as a natural product was nigerìna or nigerine. I don't see that one catching back on any time soon...

I used the full name of the compound to distinguish it from dimethylterephthalate and dimescaline tartrate and ... ;)


I'm reminded of this tale:
Quiz - Wikipedia

We could try flooding reddit with dozens of glowing "alvarin" reports, but that's probably unethical.

For reference

Edit; I have tried to translate it an although not quite good enough to post here, he did write about how he injected the yellow crystalline material in to an array of animals, that all died after convulsing concluding that its an toxin.
 

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I saw that too, it’s fascinating to see, I have been able to translate parts of it via chat gpt but not really an complete coherent piece, maybe google translate will be better.
 
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