OTC Maoi's?

[stolpioni]

Just recieved a kilo of mimosa bark, but I havn't recieved my other products
thats needed to make an extraction. So, I was thinking of making some ayahuasca instead.
Problem is I don't have any MAOI's, so my question is where can I obtain
a product that might work as a MAOI a saturday afternoon?
Any over-the-counter meds that work?

 

[ubu]

Although selegiline is a MAO-B inhibitor, in high dosages it can act as a MAO-A inhibitor. And you can find it in any drugstore. But if you follow this route pay attention to your dietary for the next two weeks and stay away from SSRIs.

 

[stolpioni]

Ok thanks, have you tried it yourself?
Does it really work or do you recommend waiting a few days and order some caapi or syrian rue instead?
I have taken some opiates today, can it interact negative with selegiline?

 

[ubu]

Yes, tried myself but only in small dosage, as a substitute for RIMA before smoking spice.

As far I know serotonin syndrome may occur if one combine selegiline with opiates.

 

[Ginkgo]

I strongly advice you to wait for some real harmaloids. P. harmala would do, but I feel B. caapi to be a superior experience. Remember that Ayahuasca is not only a mixture of DMT and a MAOI, it is the mixture of DMT and the harmaloids, which have psychedelic action at their own, in addition to their MAOI properties. In fact, Ayahuasca is the name of the B. caapi vine, and the name can refer to a drink only consisting of B. caapi.

With synthetic MAOIs you will have a vastly different effect than with Ayahuasca. It's also not a given that selegiline will work to enable oral DMT. We know moclobemide works, but that is again an experience different from Ayahuasca. Selegiline has the problem that it also acts as a MAO-B inhibitor, as such it isn't a RIMA such as the harmaloids.

MAO-B inhibition is not something you want, it can cause interactions with a rather large number of substances from food and very many drugs. Oh and yes, selegiline will absolutely interact with opiates. This interaction may certainly be something you don't want. Wait for some caapi my man!

 

[Phantastica]

many indian/persian stores keep esphand (syrian rue) so perhaps you can try your luck there. but you should just order b. caapi vine online imo since you will receive it within a week; no need to hurry such things. this is a great vendor: http://www.banisteriopsiscaapi.co.uk/redshredded.php:d

 

[ubu]

Oh buddy, when talking about DMT absorption, what you called synthetic MAOI are not so different from RIMA, even the natural ones (in fact, besides the reversible/irreversible aspect, they are the same thing). We know harmalas have some hallucinogen effects and we believe they are mixed with other plants in the hoasca to expand and perhaps even change their effects. But in a more strict sense, we are talking about oral DMT ingestion and absorption. And for oral DMT ingestion to succeed we need some sort of MAOI-A. So, looks like the "vastly different effect" you talk about is perhaps just the effect of DMT alone.

Take note because you missed this part in my previous post: in high dosages selegiline acts not only as MAOI-B but as MAOI-A too. A normal dose of selegiline is 10g. A high dose is 20~30g.

MAOI diet restriction is not so restrictive as some suggests. In fact, one is perfect allowed to ingest small/normal doses of food and beverages containing tyramine without *ANY* problem. For someone already following a *normal* diet, the MAOI imposed diet represents almost no change in his life. But some people are pretty stupid or morbid when dealing with food and beverages. They like to eat 1/2kg of chocolate in one take, eat a big pile of strong chesse or drink 10 Belgian beers in a furry. Such people are already at the sick side, they are going to die for such stupid diet and the blood pressure is their smallest problem.

Selegiline interaction with opiates isn't "absolut". Depends on opiate. Some class of opiates do not precipitate serotonin toxicity with MAOIs. Codeine and morphine are well known examples of this class.

The real big danger is when one ingest any sort of MAOI followed by a SRI. As soon as the SRI reaches the blood the reaction ocurrs immediately. It's called serotonim syndrome and can be quickly fatal. But, hey! Who said the serotonin toxicity occurs only with synthetic irreversible MAOIs?! Take any reversible inhibitor like Moclobemide - which act short, about 4 hours - or harmalas/harmaline - about 12 hours. Is generally accepted they are much better than the 2 weeks required by irreversible MAOIs. Since both class of drugs act short, they are considered safe, which is a valid *sugestion* but not precise because both class of drugs when combined with a SRI can cause serotonin toxicity. But as they act short at least the severity and duration will be significantly shorter and lessen. Except, of course, if one take a big dose.

 

[ouro]

OP: imo, desperation + drugs results in unpleasant experiences and abuse. Be patient and you will be rewarded.

Ubu: interesting stuff... at the risk of derailing this thread could you answer some quick q's I have about MAO?

1) irreversable maoi physically damage mao molecules rendering them useless while RIMAs simply occupy the mao active site rendering them temporarily inactive, correct? If so I really dont like the idea of irreversable maoi... the thought of having a bunch of useless damaged enzymes occupying my body for 2 weeks makes me feel sick already. No wonder commercial antidepressants with this action have so many problems.

2) do you have any idea what timescale mao's work on? ie, how long does it take for mao to break down one amine and move on to the next. It probably depends on the amine in question... I wonder if ingesting enough of any amine could bind up enough mao to sneak some light through. Of course this is just a curiosity as I bet its an unhealthy strategy.

3) some chems slow/stop the production of mao in the body? are these also considered maoi?

thanks

 

[BananaForeskin]

Oh buddy, when talking about DMT absorption, what you called synthetic MAOI are not so different from RIMA, even the natural ones (in fact, besides the reversible/irreversible aspect, they are the same thing). We know harmalas have some hallucinogen effects and we believe they are mixed with other plants in the hoasca to expand and perhaps even change their effects. But in a more strict sense, we are talking about oral DMT ingestion and absorption. And for oral DMT ingestion to succeed we need some sort of MAOI-A. So, looks like the "vastly different effect" you talk about is perhaps just the effect of DMT alone.

Whoa, whoa, tone done the "we believe"s a few notches. Not to be an unfriendly Nexian, but you could be a little more humble. In the short term, before people start debunking both the above and the parts of your post I didn't quote, just note little things like Evening Glory's umpteen-million posts and the fact that they are a moderator. They know what they're talking about.

First off, the vastly different effects ARE due to the different MAOIs involved. Caapi is subjectively very different from rue, and to my knowledge even different varieties of caapi have noticeable differences from each other. The difference between selegiline and caapi would be immense; as Evening Glory mentioned but you may have misunderstood, CAAPI IS A POTENT PSYCHEDELIC BY ITSELF. There is no "mystery about the ingredients of ayahuasca". We make it. We know what goes into it.

Just recieved a kilo of mimosa bark, but I havn't recieved my other products
thats needed to make an extraction. So, I was thinking of making some ayahuasca instead.
Problem is I don't have any MAOI's, so my question is where can I obtain
a product that might work as a MAOI a saturday afternoon?
Any over-the-counter meds that work?

Know that if you have mimosa already, you are more likely to find the stuff for an extraction on a Saturday afternoon than you are to find a decent MAOI. If you have a drugstore nearby, you have a hardware store, and a hardware store stocks all of the vinegar, lime/lye, naptha/limonene, and jars you need to do an extraction. To find syrian rue, checking for esphand or aspand at a Middle Eastern goods store is a good option.

But remember, be patient. It doesn't take more than a week or two for things to arrive via mail; and you are about to start experimenting with EXTREMELY powerful substances. As impatient as you may feel, just drink a cup of tea and chill until the RIGHT stuff comes, be it caapi or what have you, and you will not regret it.

 

[BananaForeskin]

And FYI, my favorite over-the-counter MAOI is curcumin

 

[ubu]

Oh, sorry. I'm rereading my message, and clearly perceiving the arrogant tone and the lack of cordiality.

Evening Glory, really apologize for expressing myself this way. Was not my intention to direct such hard words to you person. It's how I get involved with things, with passion. But sometimes I over did it in words.

I'll get a bucket of ice to cool off.

 

[BananaForeskin]

Oh, sorry. I'm rereading my message, and clearly perceiving the arrogant tone and the lack of cordiality. Really apologize for expressing myself this way.

You are right: I have not experienced many MAOIs. Instead I just prescribed it for some years. For this reason I feel a little safer to write what I write.

Ha, I edited that bit out immediately after realizing I had mistaken you for the OP, who didn't have experience with MAOIs. Apology accepted, and I apologize for accusing you of having no MAOI background... that was just a blatant misunderstanding.

 

[ubu]

BananaForeskin, you are right: I have not experienced many MAOIs. But I have some background prescribing MAOIs and some sort of drugs for sick people. I think it has helped me better understand the iteration of this and some other drugs. But even then I could be wrong. My sincere apologize for been so arrogant.

 

[BananaForeskin]

Don't worry about it! It's the internet, anything you write has the possibility to sound different than you intended. You probably have more general pharmacological knowledge than I do, if you have a background in prescribing!

 

[ubu]

Sorry Ouro, I missed your questions.

Damage isn't appropriate in such case because the inhibitor do not destroys the protein structure. Best to talk about rate reduction and deactivation. There is nothing wrong in inhibit a MAO enzyme (in a strict sense an enzyme do not alters the equilibrium, just the reaction speed). Rate reduction and deactivation are just ways for a temporary increase in some neurotransmitters, like serotonin and dopamine. You do not become sick by MAO inhibition. Generally, you become healthy.

As general advice (mainly to think about) if you respect Harmalas you should respect MAOIs too, even the synthetic MAOIs (in my opnion the differentiation between natural and synthetic is useless when considering such things). Probably, you will end up hearing elsewhere that MAOIs are overhyped. Honestly, I don't think these people know what they are talking about. MAOIs are powerful tools, capable to change lifes and even bring people from the death (the depressive, "living dead" state, that's what I mean).

About the time, MAO are enzymes capable to catalyze (increase rate) during the metabolization, which is a kind of chemical reaction and generally require multiple steps, transition states and so on. In a word, require some time to ocurr. But the time here range from femtoseconds to seconds and often an enzyme is able to catalyze million reactions per second. Generally, the reaction ocurr "immediately" as is the case of oral DMT administration without a MAOI. Also, enzyme diffusion plays a role: the reaction can be instantaneous but if the diffusion is poor, the total process can slow down substantially.

 

[Ginkgo]

Oh, sorry. I'm rereading my message, and clearly perceiving the arrogant tone and the lack of cordiality.

Evening Glory, really apologize for expressing myself this way. Was not my intention to direct such hard words to you person. It's how I get involved with things, with passion. But sometimes I over did it in words.

I'll get a bucket of ice to cool off.

Ah, my good man, none offense taken! I actually smiled when I read your post. I love passion!! However, sometimes we show passion for knowledge which isn't real wisdom. You may read all you want about a subject and gain tremendous knowledge about it, but not before you experience said subject yourself you will have real wisdom about it. I think it is a good idea to allow passion only to show itself during the times we express our wisdom.

That said, your points are valid and clear. You just seem to lack the wisdom - which is gained through experience - that caapi and harmal are active, visual psychedelics at their own. As such, Ayahuasca is a combination of two (or more) active hallucinogens. It's not only DMT + MAOI. You should brew some Ayahuasca and report back, my good man! Oh, and hang in there, you will shortly receive full membership if you are continuing on the good path!