Paradigm shifts

[GoneWiththeWind]

Hey everybody,

How often do you experience paradigm shifts? Vaping DMT and trying other psychedelics has always been something that I expected to be a catalyst for paradigm shifts but I haven't experienced anything profound from them, nothing that really shook my world view. I think that's because I've never given them any credibility. I have for the longest time believed that everything comes from an infinite abyss absent intelligence.

My new way of thinking is that this is a pretty wild idea in itself. This one idea has basically ran my subconscious for years and now I'm tossing it out, it no longer feels right. The scary part is that now all of my experiences carry a much deeper meaning. I no longer feel like I'm probing into a meaningless abyss. Being still and just experiencing and noticing everything around me is now fascinating. Not that I would consider myself depressed, but compared to how I feel now, I have been in a fog.

I feel like this belief system has been holding me back in a serious way and this is the first real growth I've made in years. I'm beginning to really understand my limitations in a much deeper way. I'm curious how often the rest of you experience large paradigm shifts, and whether or not they create lasting change in your life.

 

[dragonrider]

Yeah, i can relate. I used to be an atheist, but now i would consider myself agnostic instead.

I always saw the world as very logical, and myself as a pretty rational person. Until i realised that even logic itself is essentially imbued with a strange kind of beauty.

 

[FranLover]

I like this post! Most times people come in and say the first things you said (e.g. "I have always had and have this way of viewing the world--insert very specific lens or conditioning--and am disatisfied" ) and the post ends.

But this one has a turn around; you realize this small lens is a limitation and move on to greater things, perhaps towards what is called in buddhism right view.

One experiences these often, old habits and pleassures come to a hault, as so do old ideas. New ones arise, and the smell with which one percieves the world changes.

Its very comforting to have bodybuilding in lifes equation because each time ones goes through these changes one can intensify the training--as the years progress ones has many of these paradigm shifts and with each one there is a period in which this concentration and life force may be put into beautifying and making stronger the body. Its different to other hobbies because the body directly dictates what mood you are in, and well, the body is all you really always got, and you can always look at it and know that you made it that strong.

I think they are last longing. It can last 6 months, or maybe an year, maybe more, depending on how well you feed it. A shift like this needs good fuel, so it can continue to accelerate the love and beauty and strenght.

The most recent for me is an unwillingess to stay in Samsara. I absolutley refuse to continue suffering or to suffer at all. And this change would have been impossible if not for all the other previous shifts.

Realizing samsara exists and we are all stuck in it--that was the first step towards freedom.

But a lot more shifts had to come so that one actually did something about it. Its called 'sick and tired of being sick and tired.'

 

[Loverofallthings]

How often do you experience paradigm shifts?

I haven't experienced anything profound from them

My new way of thinking is

I quoted you here to point out that maybe these shifts are happening it a totally normal ans perfect way.

I would venture to guess that maybe you are looking for something more dramatic than is typical in changes in personality. Psychedelics have certainly become part of the way that I have shaped my'self' and altered states of consciousness, in more general terms, have been crucial in realizing the changes that I should or can make to the way that I live and behave.

That being said, it is rare that one wakes up from a dream or comes out of a trip or hikes out of a long stretch in the wilderness to find themselves transformed in an instant. Paradigm shifts, in my experience, happen more slowly and gently than that. Which is a good thing. I think that if I stepped out of a meditation and suddenly found myself to be the man I am now and no longer the man I was 10 years ago (or 20 years ago) and that world view change happened without warning in a single moment-it would take me 10 (or 20!) years to integrate that many substantial changes in a healthy sustainable way, anyway.

I hope that makes sense.

-Lover

 

[GoneWiththeWind]

Yeah, i can relate. I used to be an atheist, but now i would consider myself agnostic instead.

I always saw the world as very logical, and myself as a pretty rational person. Until i realised that even logic itself is essentially imbued with a strange kind of beauty.

It sounds like we had a similar shift in perspective. I finally made the connection that it's not logical that a universe absent intelligence could create intelligence. I think we are part of a great spectrum of consciousness and intelligence, and we are nowhere near the top.

 

[GoneWiththeWind]

I like this post! Most times people come in and say the first things you said (e.g. "I have always had and have this way of viewing the world--insert very specific lens or conditioning--and am disatisfied" ) and the post ends.

But this one has a turn around; you realize this small lens is a limitation and move on to greater things, perhaps towards what is called in buddhism right view.

One experiences these often, old habits and pleassures come to a hault, as so do old ideas. New ones arise, and the smell with which one percieves the world changes.

Its very comforting to have bodybuilding in lifes equation because each time ones goes through these changes one can intensify the training--as the years progress ones has many of these paradigm shifts and with each one there is a period in which this concentration and life force may be put into beautifying and making stronger the body. Its different to other hobbies because the body directly dictates what mood you are in, and well, the body is all you really always got, and you can always look at it and know that you made it that strong.

I think they are last longing. It can last 6 months, or maybe an year, maybe more, depending on how well you feed it. A shift like this needs good fuel, so it can continue to accelerate the love and beauty and strenght.

The most recent for me is an unwillingess to stay in Samsara. I absolutley refuse to continue suffering or to suffer at all. And this change would have been impossible if not for all the other previous shifts.

Realizing samsara exists and we are all stuck in it--that was the first step towards freedom.

But a lot more shifts had to come so that one actually did something about it. Its called 'sick and tired of being sick and tired.'

I actually am into power-lifting and bodybuilding. It's been a part of my life for the past 10+ years. We would definitely get along! I think that suffering is a choice and that it is definitely in your power to shape a perspective that limits it.

I will have to look more into Buddhism, but I have to admit that I am very skeptical when it comes to organized religious philosophies. I think, for myself, they could be useful tools but I see a lot of flaws in them as well. I just watched an interview with dalai lama, and some of his answers revealed that he too is narrow minded in his own way. I also don't like that, from what I understand, there is an end goal in Buddhism. I think that allowing yourself to believe that there is a perfect, achievable state of consciousness is a bit delusional. Perhaps there is some concept of embracing imperfection and uncertainty embedded in the philosophy that I'm not aware of... I might also be misunderstanding the way Buddhists view the dalai lama

 

[FranLover]

I actually am into power-lifting and bodybuilding. It's been a part of my life for the past 10+ years. We would definitely get along!

Thats so cool! n_n And yes, for sure =)

I will have to look more into Buddhism, but I have to admit that I am very skeptical when it comes to organized religious philosophies. I think, for myself, they could be useful tools but I see a lot of flaws in them as well. I just watched an interview with dalai lama, and some of his answers revealed that he too is narrow minded in his own way. I also don't like that, from what I understand, there is an end goal in Buddhism. I think that allowing yourself to believe that there is a perfect, achievable state of consciousness is a bit delusional. Perhaps there is some concept of embracing imperfection and uncertainty embedded in the philosophy that I'm not aware of... I might also be misunderstanding the way Buddhists view the dalai lama

Dalai Lama is a tibetan and...whatever.

Why should the words of Gautama be tools? Why cant they be read just as what they are; words, meant to convey meaning. Is there anything of value to be found in their meaning? My oppinion is Yes, of course.

If we think that organized religion = what Gautama or Jesus actually said, that is like us thinking that the books of authors cease to be good works because they have been published and are thus a "manufacture of the publishing industry." Outside of the hype and industry behind Harry Potter, J.K Rowling actually put her heart into writing something meaningful to her, yet it is like us saying that Harry Potter sucks even though we never read it and are just looking at the merchandise.

Would it not be far more wise to read the work and then make ones own mind about the quality of the content?

I think that allowing yourself to believe that there is a perfect, achievable state of consciousness is a bit delusional.

Is the serial killer the same as a good person?

Then why is it so hard to imagine that some people are greater than the good person, and in understanding more, suffer less--or not at all.

haven't experienced anything profound from them, nothing that really shook my world view. I think that's because I've never given them any credibility

When you look at the person infront of you from over your shoulder there is nothing you shall learn from him/her. But with the right mind set, everyone and every word can become a guru.

 

[GoneWiththeWind]

Thanks for your response Franlover. I’m too skeptical for my own good, and like I said I’ve had some beliefs that have been holding me back for as long as I can remember. I’m enjoying this new way of thinking and I want to keep going down this path. Do you have any book recommendations for learning more about eastern philosophy/religion?

Your name makes a lot more sense now knowing you’re into fitness. CrossFit is something I’ve yet to try, I’m thinking of learning some yoga though. My body is beat from lifting 5 days a week.

 

[FranLover]

Thanks for your response Franlover.

thank you

I’m too skeptical for my own good, and like I said I’ve had some beliefs that have been holding me back for as long as I can remember. I’m enjoying this new way of thinking and I want to keep going down this path. Do you have any book recommendations for learning more about eastern philosophy/religion?

Skepticism is good, but it can be confused with cynisim and ignorance I feel, as most atheist say they are skeptics, but in reality they dont understand religion because they have not, in my oppinion, lived enough or seen enough to understand the divine nature of reality. I feel like you can't complain about there being nothing sacred in the world while you take cocaine, smoke cigs, and jack off everyday, treat people wrong, never read a book, etc, etc. I see this. You wonder why a person on a forum doesnt understand something as simple as cosmic love, and you look at their other posts and they are suffering meth addicts who live in a car--well obviously they are cynical, they themselves have no purity, no virtue, so virtuous ideas can not be grassped by a small mind.

So cool that you're enjoying new waves of feeling and thought in life =) be the hero, Gonewiththewind.

The book attached at the bottom changed me. It is called Think On These Things by J Krishnamurti.

Then The Four Noble Truths

Based on the purity of his heart, this cosmic knowledge was revealed to the buddah on his night of enlightment, and meant to free all humans.

The Gospel Of Thomas

This gospel is not in the bible. Just give it a read, it might make you feel something very powerful.

Your name makes a lot more sense now knowing you’re into fitness. CrossFit is something I’ve yet to try, I’m thinking of learning some yoga though. My body is beat from lifting 5 days a week.

I'm not sure what you mean fran is my name and I love things--but you're right, cause I love things as a result of all the endorphins I get from jogging. Btw, I like your name cause thats a beautiful book and movie ^_^

Many yoga poses are just normal stretches. The key to stretches is breathing very relaxed with the diaphragm while you hold the pose so that you can stretch further without forcing it (the breathing itself makes the stretch more stretchful--I just invented that word.)

And indeed, we have to stretch--I certainly do. Not only is it super duper enjoyable, but a tight body is just...ahg. You can recover faster too if you stretch.

I know I talk too much. Bye

 

[GoneWiththeWind]

Thanks! I’m gonna have a lot of free time the next two months, I’ll make reading those a priority.
There is something called a Fran in CrossFit, I think they name the workouts after whoever wrote them or something.

 

[FranLover]

a fran in crossfit? haha, thats pretty funny I actually invented that (?

 

[Cactus Man]

Speaking of someone reminded me that 2020 is perfect vision, coincidence?

People always said that the whole 2012 prophecy might have been slightly off by a few years.

Personally do expect some form of shift next year myself.

 

[xss27]

How often do you experience paradigm shifts? Vaping DMT and trying other psychedelics has always been something that I expected to be a catalyst for paradigm shifts but I haven't experienced anything profound from them, nothing that really shook my world view. I think that's because I've never given them any credibility. I have for the longest time believed that everything comes from an infinite abyss absent intelligence.

Something I've seen from my own experiences and those of friends, and others met along the way, is that taking psychedelics does not automatically produce revelation or induce paradigm shifts. I mean this should be common sense but I think the reason why it isn't is because of an inherent bias that we all have as humans; we expect to see change or see things outside of ourselves in order for them to be valid. We expect solidity, material objects, and deem those real. Internal states are deemed fictional and unreal.

What it boils down to I think is the ability for a person to observe without judgement on an internal level, as opposed to filtering everything through their particular beliefs first. The more a person is actually open and receptive the more likely they are to receive something, whether a revelation or impetus for a paradigm shift.

If a person identifies very strongly with a belief structure that is antithetical to receiving revelation then they are unlikely to receive any because they'll either filter it out, miss the signals, or perhaps if there is some sort of intelligent force it won't see them as ripe or ready.

Intellectual paradigms can be very resistant and inflexible, especially for western minds that are built around logic and also when a person has a strong identification with that way of thinking at a personality level too. That is my observation of people I know who haven't really gained much beyond the initial visual "wow" factor of psychedelics.

Not everyone has eyes to see and ears to hear. If you only expect to find what you expect to find, how do you expect to find anything different? Being open minded is much more than an intellectual position and I don't think a lot of people really get.

I feel like this belief system has been holding me back in a serious way and this is the first real growth I've made in years. I'm beginning to really understand my limitations in a much deeper way. I'm curious how often the rest of you experience large paradigm shifts, and whether or not they create lasting change in your life.

The nature of my own shifts has changed; these days its more practical and physical shifts in day-to-day living, emotional states, i.e. just continuing to grow/learn about myself. Its been more than a decade since my last psychedelic experience and I have no urge to return to them, they served their purpose and shifted my paradigm significantly in terms of my relation to society, culture, and consensus thinking. There is no going backwards from this position really, you can't undo the seeing of certain truths. I feel like my philosophical and intellectual paradigms are fairly well established and unlikely to shift in a dramatic way either;

I feel that the next paradigm shift for myself will have to be at a direct subjective level rather than at an intellectual one. As in, experiencing some sort of samadhi state or enlightement, something that renders all other paradigms as illusory or meaningless.

This might all sound like I'm talking complete garbage but it's what came to mind.

 

[FranLover]

This might all sound like I'm talking complete garbage but it's what came to mind.

Nono, its gold. This is precisley what we are talking about :thumb_up:

 

[Jupitor]

I feel like you can't complain about there being nothing sacred in the world while you take cocaine, smoke cigs, and jack off everyday, treat people wrong, never read a book, etc, etc.

Care to expound on the moral depravity of one who jacks off everyday? I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter.

 

[FranLover]

Its very simple; in what tale does the hero jack off everyday? Its not a depravity, its simply not what the hero does. So one has to make a decision, be the hero or be average. The hero sits on the mountain top in deep meditation. That was just an example; there are many things we do which are below us, which lower our consciousness. Its all OK, its perfeclty normal and okay to smoke cigs; but its not what the hero does. Habits must fall into the wastebasket so that the sacred can come in. This is not ascetism. Its only a return to the natural purity and spontenaity that we had as children. Purity of heart is the greatest virtue. Our behavior must be as pure as our spirit so that we can live the most exceptional lives we can. This is in the records...ancient knowledge as old as time itself. If god exists then the dao existed even before him, thats how old the dao is...eternal knowledge.

 

[Jupitor]

Its very simple; in what tale does the hero jack off everyday? Its not a depravity, its simply not what the hero does. So one has to make a decision, be the hero or be average. The hero sits on the mountain top in deep meditation. That was just an example; there are many things we do which are below us, which lower our consciousness.

There aren't any tales of heroes wiping their asses after shitting either (to my knowledge), but isn't it a given that they do?

But let's say you're correct that "heroes" don't masturbate. This is because...? How does this act lower consciousness? Does this apply to all sexual behavior, or just the auto-induced variety? And does this apply to woman as well?

Habits must fall into the wastebasket so that the sacred can come in.

What constitutes a "habit" in this sense? Does the "habit" of eating food everyday apply here? Where's the line?

This is not ascetism.

It's sounding a lot like asceticism.

Its only a return to the natural purity and spontenaity that we had as children. Purity of heart is the greatest virtue. Our behavior must be as pure as our spirit so that we can live the most exceptional lives we can.

Words like "pure" and "virtue" are pretty ambiguous. How does masturbation lead to impurity of heart?

This is in the records...ancient knowledge as old as time itself. If god exists then the dao existed even before him, thats how old the dao is...eternal knowledge.

What exactly is the "dao"? Ancient knowledge? Passed on by what means? Text? Scripture? Human to human? Or direct communication with the "source"? What happens when different people get different messages? Who is the arbiter?

Now excuse me, my unenlightened self identifying ego requires me to to go purge the waterworks before they get too gummed up.

 

[FranLover]

There aren't any tales of heroes wiping their asses after shitting either (to my knowledge), but isn't it a given that they do?

One thing is a natural body function (food/excretion) the other, masturbation, is not. This is obvious.

to those who desire---->pleasure

To those who want unity--->unity consciousness. Purity. Total inteligence which lies outside of space and time, outside of any action or doing.

But let's say you're correct that "heroes" don't masturbate. This is because...? How does this act lower consciousness? Does this apply to all sexual behavior, or just the auto-induced variety? And does this apply to woman as well?

Why "lets say"? Find out for yourself if it is correct or not. What heroes do you know?

And it is simply because heroes are virtuous in action, in speech, in behavior, in thinking, in feeling--their aptitude for emptiness is strong.

This applies to all forms of desiring which are compulsive, clingy, and unenlightened. If you have sex with a woman not because you love her but because of your desire for her, then it is happening for the wrong reasons. It is vacuous.

What constitutes a "habit" in this sense? Does the "habit" of eating food everyday apply here? Where's the line?

The line lies between what is necessary and what is unecessary, what is done with intent or what is done through compulsion, what causes suffering and what doesnt.

eat one doughnut--beautiful is gods will that we should delight in exquisitness !

But eat doughnuts everyday --how slugish the body has turned, how addicted to the vacuous pleasure of sugar.

It's sounding a lot like asceticism.

So most all children are born ascetics?

Words like "pure" and "virtue" are pretty ambiguous. How does masturbation lead to impurity of heart?

Discover the meaning of words and unlock hidden secrets; purity and virtue are not ambiguous. Please think for yourself what Purity means. Do you drink muddy water or do you enjoy pure clean water to drink?

As for virtue...Virtue lies in all books of wisdom through the ages. Every thinker understands its meaning--from one thing know ten thousand things.

What exactly is the "dao"? Ancient knowledge? Passed on by what means? Text? Scripture? Human to human? Or direct communication with the "source"? What happens when different people get different messages? Who is the arbiter?

If you get a different message it is not the dao. One can read books from 3000 years old to the present from all around the world and the dao is intact and latent in the pages. The dao is the life force in all sentient beings. Its what makes a leaf a leaf, and sap sap.

From where does a plant come from if the seed is hallow? From natural law, the dao, whatever you which to call it. By its nature the seed needs good soil to be born, and water to grow...this is the dao. The same is true for men. We need good conditions to grow as we should.

Now excuse me, my unenlightened self identifying ego requires me to to go purge the waterworks before they get too gummed up.

I dont follow.

May joy be with you! Happy holidays thank you.


"If when I have the chance to live a wholesome life
My actions are not wholesome,
Then what shall I be able to do
When confused by the misery of the lower realms?

So if, when having found leisure such as this,
I do not attune myself to what is wholesome,
There could be no greater deception
And there could be no greater folly.

24
And if, having understood this,
I still foolishly continue to be slothful,
When the hour of death arrives
Tremendous grief will rear its head

In doing that which by nature is not unwholesome
Both for the sake of myself and other sentient beings
I should always hold my mind fast,
(Acting) like an apparition, with no sense of self."