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Phalaris aquatica and gramine, nutmeg and mystricin

Migrated topic.

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Rising Star
I know of a place where a large amount of high-quality phalaris aquatica grows, and I'm thinking of harvesting. I've done a lot of reading online, and I have the following newbie questions:

1. How dangerous is gramine, and is it particularly prevalant in aquatica? If I did nothing other than grind the plant up and smoke, would that be dangerous? Or would it be safer to drink?

2. Can I just grind it up and smoke it and/or mix it with a MAOI, or do I really have to go through the complicated extraction processes?

3. What is the best part of the plant? Do I harvest the whole thing, or just the roots, or the flowers, or the stem, or what?

4. The only MAOIs I have on-hand are prescription drugs and nutmeg. I'd rather not use the former if I can help it. Will the latter work in the proper dosage, or should I try to extract the mystricin, or what?

NOTE: I know everybody hates nutmeg. I did it a few times in high school, and it wasn't that great (or terrible) on its own, but I loved mixing it with pot. I'm interested in safety here, not everyone's drug preferences - just pointing this out since I don't have any use for 10,000 posts about how much nutmeg sucks, haha.

5. What is the best extraction method for aquatica?

6. What is the fastest/easiest that still produces results?

7. Assuming there is bufotenin in it... I know/have heard very, very little about this substance, but some say it is dangerous. Is it dangerous enough to worry about in this case?

Thanks in advance for any help you may be able to provide! In desperate need of a trip right now, so hopefully I can get this shit figured out.

Note that I'm not necessarily looking for the absolute most potent method, as long as I can still get usable results. I've done acid, shrooms, DXM, ecstasy, datura, etc. a few times each, but never DMT before, so I'm looking for a good threshold dose to start with. I don't want it to be too mild, but I want to take it as slowly as is possible for such a substance and work my way up.

Well, I did smoke very small amount of crystal DMT once mixed in with bowl of pot and cocaine, but the "trip" just consisted of me staring at a stream for half an hour. Interesting visuals and experience, but nothing live I've heard about DMT.
 
1. How dangerous is gramine, and is it particularly prevalant in aquatica? If I did nothing other than grind the plant up and smoke, would that be dangerous? Or would it be safer to drink?
- Not really that dangerous. Most of the published literature reports that it is not particularly prevalent (but it is there). Grinding up and smoking the plant wouldn't be dangerous, but it also wouldn't be effective. In general smoking it would be safer than drinking it because we don't really know how gramine or other compounds that could be potentially present interact with maoi's/rima's.

2. Can I just grind it up and smoke it and/or mix it with a MAOI, or do I really have to go through the complicated extraction processes?
- No you can't just grind it up and smoke it. Yes you really have to go through the complicated extraction process.

3. What is the best part of the plant? Do I harvest the whole thing, or just the roots, or the flowers, or the stem, or what?
- The fresh young green leaves/blades have the highest alkaloid content.

4. The only MAOIs I have on-hand are prescription drugs and nutmeg. I'd rather not use the former if I can help it. Will the latter work in the proper dosage, or should I try to extract the mystricin, or what?
- I would strongly suggest avoiding either in conjunction with phalaris because without proper analysis you will not know what compounds are present and how they interact with maoi's. If you were to use one I'd suggest obtaining peganum harmala, even then I'd advise against taking phalaris with an maoi without medical supervision.

5. What is the best extraction method for aquatica?
- Any extraction method on this forum will work fine for phalaris.

6. What is the fastest/easiest that still produces results?
- Straight to base extractions.

7. Assuming there is bufotenin in it... I know/have heard very, very little about this substance, but some say it is dangerous. Is it dangerous enough to worry about in this case?
- No bufotenine is not dangerous, just highly unpleasant.
 
I disagree with dreamer042, not with the specific answers, but with answering specifically. (BTW I cannot really agree or disagree about the gramine, we simply do not yet know very much - which is a good reason to be careful and stay away from it.) Your questions and assumptions indicate to me that you need other answers than what you are asking for, whether you like that or not.

You should probably forget about extracting phalaris for now. You seem to be severely lacking in the knowledge and experience that is needed for this.

First you should learn to extract some easy botanical, like mimosa. This can be hard enough the first time. When you have mastered this skill, you can move on to more complicated plant sources. Don't be disappointed if you need at least three extractions before you can even start to feel confident about it, realistically.

Then you should learn how to properly recognize phalaris from other grass species. This may be a little harder than you assume. Since you had to ask in the other thread and you posted (really unclear and badly unfocussed) photos of some plant that is VERY obviously not phalaris, I am under the impression that you presently lack the necessary determination skills. Assuming that you do this as a side interest and a hobby, it may take a year or two of study and exercise for you to become proficient in these matters. Then there is the matter of chemical diversity withing the phalaris species. Not all chemotypes contain useful amounts of dmt, some contain other alkaloids that you may not want to ingest.

Also you need to learn about MAO inhibitors. For starters, nutmeg is not a good choice. If you think it is, it points out to me how much you are ill-informed about these substances. This can be very dangerous. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.

If you think that I am unduly harsh on you, I am not trying to. I am worried for your well being, and for the well being of others who read this thread. I wish you good fortune on your endeavors, but want to emphasize that good preparations are more important than good fortune.

If you are determined to go through with this, I have this advice for you: Find some mimosa hostilis or acacia confusa for a dmt source and banisteriopsis caapi or peganum harmala for a maoi source. Learn extracting and using from these materials. If, after having learned from this, you are still interested in working with phalaris, prepare well for what is essentially an underdocumented path. At least invest in one of the TLC Test Kits for phytochemical research and harm reduction that valued dmt-nexus member endlessness helped to create.
 
dreamer042 said:
7. Assuming there is bufotenin in it... I know/have heard very, very little about this substance, but some say it is dangerous. Is it dangerous enough to worry about in this case?
- No bufotenine is not dangerous, just highly unpleasant.
I think you are mixing up 5-MeO-DMT with Bufotenin.
Bufotenin is the main alkaloid found in yopo and cebil which are not considered unpleasant.
But most people dont use phalaris because of the 5-MeO-DMT.
If you look at erowid you will see tons of people writing about horror trips on 5-MeO-DMT.
I personally have used cebil more often than pure DMT and I dont think it makes more bad trips.

To answer your question 4
Its really easy to get passiflora . Passiflora contains harmine and harmaline and some people use it over caapi in their ayahuasca brew. I can just go to some stores and buy it as a tea.
 
Easy one first:
Ulim said:
dreamer042 said:
7. Assuming there is bufotenin in it... I know/have heard very, very little about this substance, but some say it is dangerous. Is it dangerous enough to worry about in this case?
- No bufotenine is not dangerous, just highly unpleasant.
I think you are mixing up 5-MeO-DMT with Bufotenin.
Bufotenin is the main alkaloid found in yopo and cebil which are not considered unpleasant.
But most people dont use phalaris because of the 5-MeO-DMT.
If you look at erowid you will see tons of people writing about horror trips on 5-MeO-DMT.
I personally have used cebil more often than pure DMT and I dont think it makes more bad trips.

To answer your question 4
Its really easy to get passiflora . Passiflora contains harmine and harmaline and some people use it over caapi in their ayahuasca brew. I can just go to some stores and buy it as a tea.
No, actually I'm not. I have personally extracted and smoked freebase bufotenine. I speak from experience. Many other members here have extensive experience with bufotenine, and with 5-MEO-DMT, that will support my claims.

Here are a few links to verify this information for yourself (and only a small portion of the information available on this forum):

There is also this whole subforum concerning these topics:

Re: Passiflora, it does work, but requires many hundreds of grams per dose vs 3-5 grams of Peganum harmala. Again, I strongly advise against using MAOI's with grasses.
 
pitubo said:
I disagree with dreamer042, not with the specific answers, but with answering specifically. (BTW I cannot really agree or disagree about the gramine, we simply do not yet know very much - which is a good reason to be careful and stay away from it.)
Okay, it is appropriate on this forum to ask people to source their claims.

You asked for it.

I'll remind you before I begin, all this information can be found by simply searching the forum and googling.

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Here are a few threads full of research on gramine toxicity:

At this point enough nexians have tried phalaris, both wild and cultivated, both smoked and orally, that I am comfortable stating gramine is not that big of a concern.
Multiple reports in these threads:

Let us not forget that gramine is removed in simple non-polar extractions.
As endlessness demonstrated here:

Here is a paper regarding gramine content in P. aquatica (aka P. tuberosa):

Information on alkaloid content vs maturity of the grass:

Some information regarding mixing 5-MEO-DMT and MAOI's. These concerns should also should be applied to other compounds present in Phalaris (such as 5-MEO-NMT and Gramine) that we really don't have the research regarding how they interact with MAOI's.

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pitubo said:
If, after having learned from this, you are still interested in working with phalaris, prepare well for what is essentially an underdocumented path. At least invest in one of the TLC Test Kits for phytochemical research and harm reduction that valued dmt-nexus member endlessness helped to create.
I'm still the only person on this forum that has actually documented Phalaris extractions start to finish and included TLC analysis:

I'd love to see someone else do the same.
 
..i'll back up dreamer042 on this one..
i'm sick of the gramine 'issue'..

as far as i'm concerned it was largely sorted in the meandering 'debate' in the Phalaris=The Way Of The Future thread (which i think should be stickied btw) , which began around page 3 in 2011

the discussion goes on for several pages, with good contributions from very experienced members..

some core conclusions being:

Gramine is not 'acutely' toxic to humans,
meaning that in the amounts found normally in many grain foods it is considered safe to eat,
and, by estimate, in the amounts that would be found in a smokable phalaris extract, also safe.
generally speaking, the amounts required to ingest for any kind of 'toxicity' to present, in most animals,
are well beyond what a human could or would ingest. And has nothing to do with the 'staggers'.

It is easily removable in extraction, by solvent selectivity, or exploiting it's solubility in water, or charge-distribution..

Enough human bioassays have been done of Phalaris which probably contains gramine, to demonstrate it is not an issue.
(though as dreamer042 says, caution is advised in any oral ingestion)

It is 'psychotropic', believed to be in a fashion similar to ephedra, and has been investigated as a human health supplement.

..personally, i first would like to know why a plant has put something in there (as well as what it does) before committing to taking it out.

.

PS...for health and safety (and toxicity) i advise stay away from nutmeg, especially in that context!
 
dreamer042 said:
Re: Passiflora, it does work, but requires many hundreds of grams per dose vs 3-5 grams of Peganum harmala. Again, I strongly advise against using MAOI's with grasses.
But its easy to buy in stores as tea. For 100g of Passiflora I pay less than a dollar.
For 10g of Harmala I need to spend around 5$ + ship.
Passiflora is just aviable almost everywhere you can buy tea.
And I think Passiflora is still better than Nutmeg. The Safrole and Elmicin are by themself very active and if you just use the full nutmeg on its own you can expect a lot of sideeffects.
Like a dry mouth for at least 2-3 days.
 
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