Phalaris Project

[Jees]

Hey Jees! Wouldn't juicing bring out all the alkaloids including undesirables?...

Probably. It would likely reduce plant mass only, which could ease things during extraction having all that matter out of the way. Would it not be easy to pull directly on the basified juice, if this was ever possible? No cooking (but maybe some volume reducing is necessary after all). Just a thought-experiment though.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

I picked 238g of Feesey strain at sunrise today. After weighing and picking off the critters, the grass was placed in a juice extraction steamer and steamed for 3 hours. The initial amount of water in the base of the steamer was lightly acidified with 10mL of 25% acetic acid. If trying again, I'd omit the acid but this time it was used because there was limescale in the pan!

As soon as a sufficient volume had collected, 100mL of the resulting juice was tested in two portions about ten minutes apart. At the half-hour point I ate a slice of buttered toast and ten minutes later laid down to meditate with shaded eyes. In the ensuing state of relaxation it became apparent that the plant spirit was indeed present.

Like a pleasant glow from within, it spread out to my extremities. This was a threshold dose at best, but it was at least apparent that the plant demands respect in its usage. Hints of visions behind closed eyelids came only with deep relaxation. Their resemblance to the plant itself was perhaps unsurprising.

After about twenty minutes I got up from my bed in order to attend to the steamer which was still running and required topping up. (In all, 3L of water were used.) At this time there was a hint of a possibility of a headache developing but instead mild paraesthesias were noted at the back of my head and neck and the headache dispersed without further discomfort. [It feels as though thinking too much about a headache now as I type this could induce one.]

The gentle effects proceeded to decline over the next two hours although I still feel as though in a state of sensitization, along with an emotional strengthening effect. Suffice to say, I'll be approaching the remaining 700mL of juice with considerable care.


Thanks for the inspiration, in part from this very thread, which has led me to explore in this direction. Turning urine into alkaloids by feeding it to plants seems to be a worthwhile goal :thumb_up:

 

[Jagube]

I picked 238g of Feesey strain at sunrise today. [..]
As soon as a sufficient volume had collected, 100mL of the resulting juice was tested in two portions about ten minutes apart. [..] Suffice to say, I'll be approaching the remaining 700mL of juice with considerable care.

Thanks for sharing!

Just to clarify: the juice volume was a total of 800ml, you drank 100ml, which was equivalent to 29.75g of fresh grass?

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Roughly speaking, yes. The initial juice may have been stronger, or weaker, and/or of a different alkaloid profile compared to the remaining volume. And whatever way you look at it, the juice has obviously been diluted by the condensed steam as there's no way 238g of (damp) grass could contain 800mL of juice!

There were used actually two different versions of this "Raspberries and Cream" Feesey - one from a garden centre and the other collected from a wild/feral situation. The notable difference was that the feral specimens produce lateral shoots from the stems, from which the plant can spread as though with runners. These lateral shoots have a very red area at the base, which I consider highly promising. No lateral shoots were observed on the garden centre specimen.

My remaining question to ponder is - how to proceed? Just drink the rest of the juice, or attempt to separate out unwanted components? TLC would be a good idea but tbh, I really need to get myself together a bit more first.

 

[dithyramb]

Thanks for joining in, downwardsfromzero!

Arundinacea is a species which I have not started exploring yet, partly because of the reported high variability.

Great that you felt it's spirit. You did not mention drinking an maoi and it seems like this was a single plant experience. I suspect that some phalaris species might be orally active without maoi, and perhaps without maoi, some of the "toxic" alkaloids might be benign and/or synergistic with the tryptamines.

Interesting about urine... I was thinking about using nettle compost.

Looking forward to your future reports!

 

[downwardsfromzero]

One more thing - I swirled each sip around my mouth as much as I could before swallowing it, in the hope that some buccal absorption might occur.

(Also of note, perhaps - that morning I had eaten 2 fresh dates and drunk one cup of black tea prior to trying the grass juice.)

Interesting about urine... I was thinking about using nettle compost.

I've grown mushrooms with a hair supplement, cacti with fingernail and toenail supplements and so growing phalaris with my urine seemed only logical :d

The hunch about the lateral shoots/offsets is worth following up. There's fair reason that such a shoot might have an increased alkaloid content. An experiment that specifically examines the offsets would require larger amounts of mature plants, which will take me at least a year.

 

[Era/is]

Hi, anyone knows what's this? :

 

[downwardsfromzero]

A view of as much detail of as many plant parts as possible would help. Your specimen displays viviparous behaviour - "Phalaris vivipara" turns up as a synonym for P. brachystachys so you could well be in luck...

 

[Era/is]

A view of as much detail of as many plant parts as possible would help. Your specimen displays viviparous behaviour - "Phalaris vivipara" turns up as a synonym for P. brachystachys so you could well be in luck...

Thank you very much. I thought it was one of the aquatica that had some genetic difference.

I will learn about, even if I have not saved the seeds; but I have a couple of plants

 

[dithyramb]

The seed structure, especially the sterile lemma gives away brachystachys.

The seeds of all the grassses in the photos were planted three weeks ago. All seeds were harvested last spring. 1- brachystachys strain 1. 2- br strain 2. 3- br strain 3. 4- aquatica. 5- truncata.

The differences in germination and growth rate could be due to genetics or differences in soil. I dug up soil from the same area but a local villager informed me that even soil side by side can be different and can be judged by its color and the humus on it. Today I have them some sheep manure tea for the first time.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Sheep manure tea... if you were lucky with sheep manure you might be able to grow some liberty caps in amongst your Phalaris.

 

[dithyramb]

Do we know whether liberty caps can colonize on phalaris roots?

As cool as that would be, I would appreciate it immensely to just find them around this area. I have heard they grow in this part of the country but have not had the opportunity to look for them yet. This fall has been exceptionally dry so far over here and we are still waiting for the mushroom spawning rains. Liberty caps are the dearest

 

[dithyramb]

All grasses seem to have grown fresh leaves due to autumn rainfall. I recently decided to check out the autumn mojo in the local truncata (Crude extract ayahuasca analogue with rue, as usual). It was a huge contrast to the spring leaves. While showing a very tender and loving face (with weak dmt contribution) in the spring, this time it was a major hypertensive poisoning, heart racing and all. Don't be fooled because I seem to talk lightly of it... This is potentially deadly. The dmt content was also very pronounced, in contrast to the faint effect in spring. I will not try to guess the tryptamine makeup this time, however it does seem to have a lot of tyramines as does aquatica. İn total, it appears to produce much more alkaloids in the fall (I had even not boiled, and simmered it for the first time this time... Perhaps drying before preparing medicine would make it safer?)

There is a big difference in autumn and spring alkaloid content. I think I will only also test brachystachys as it is not known to produce tyramines...

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Wow, I'm glad you've survived that ordeal! This really underscores how we can't simply and reliably use grasses in simple anahuasca brews with impunity. It also highlights the defensive role that these alkaloids play. The plant clearly wants those leaves for building strength in its roots for the winter.

 

[dithyramb]

I had experienced this once more, to an even more dangerous feeling degree (physical death had felt imminent...) with aquatica in the spring. In that harvest were very young seedlings.

It makes sense that young vegetation has a defense mechanism. This syndrome which has made its mark as a trauma in my memory is as follows:

Phalaris aquatica and truncata Toxicity

A strong disorientarion, serious clouding of the mind, whithering of the life force,, a feeling as if the life support system of the body is shutting down, tremors, as well as shooting blood pressure and racing heart.

I have no doubt that one can die from this...

------

I can see how this can prevent and deter animals from grazing this grass... It also makes sense that the grass with such a defense are the ones found most commonly as they survive and spread more easily - both truncata and aquatica are found very abundantly all throughout the wide geographical area.

Brachystachys, on the other hand I have so far found very rarely, and in very small quantities. And I have never experienced a hint of this kind of energy when I ingested it, and it is not known for producing tyramines.

Hordenine, N-methyl-tyramine, and various other tyramines are known to be found in aquatica. I couldn't find data on truncata.

Phragmites is known to have hordenine, and I have noticed a similar undesired energy (though never feeling so seriously detrimental as in phalaris) when I used fresh material. Drying seems to consistently do away with unbalanced stimulation in Phragmites , so far IME. I don't know if hordenine serves a defensive purpose in Phragmites, but for phalaris, harvested dry grass does not have that need and Appleseed's suggestion for drying still stands...

At this point, I am not clear if the high tyramine producing phalaris species could be rendered suitable for ayahuasca analogue use. I will leave that matter for now and continue my studies with brachystachys.

 

[dithyramb]

I have a sort of overdrive "antidepressant" afterglow today... Also, the loving vibe I got acquainted to with this plant in the spring is noticeable. The plant possibly can be utilized as medicine, but not like this. Season has to be taken into account and drying possibly might be a necessary step. Secondly, it might not be compatible with mao inhibiton. I remember that it was active and pleasant alone, when I tried it in the spring. And here is another possibility... All the tyramines present might serve to raise blood pressure enough to activate bufotenine*, but not give a hypertensive crisis in the absence of an mao inhibitor.

*It is explained here that bufotenine might cross the blood brain barrier through raised blood pressure.

Bufotenine: toward an understanding of possible psychoactive mechanisms - PubMed

A review of the neuropharmacology of the alleged hallucinogen bufotenine is presented, including recent experimental results showing activity similar to LSD and other known hallucinogens (psilocin and 5-MeO-DMT) at the purported hallucinogenic serotonin (5-HT) receptors, 5-HT2A and 5-HT2C. In...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

There are some other reports of certain phalaris being active orally alone after all...

 

[dithyramb]

I really don't know if it is possible to utilize these two grass species as an ayahuasca analogue. It needs long term experimentation to find out if season, growth phase, and preparation method are keys, or if these grasses should not be mixed with an maoi period. So far it appears that highest alkaloid concentration without taking other factors into account is not the way to go. Aquatica seedlings in the spring were insanely potent in my experience, bringing absolute immersion in a fractal world but it was deadly toxic at the same time. Later in the beginning of the summer I had a non toxic, pleasant experience with another aquatica, and I had assumed the difference was due to strain, however now I realize the difference could merely be due to growth phase.

I am afraid my free resources for experimentation are waning fast and I have to do proper healing ceremonies rather than experimentation. Life is progressing in a way that demands my strongest version. So I will be drinking phragmites these days, the grass which feels truly healing, empowering, and right for me so far. I have made one true alliance through all that experimentation in 2020.

I hope to check out brachystachys when I can. It has something alluring, with its classic ayahuasca like (somehow resembling chali) spirit. With only one full on experience and a few subtle experiences, I just haven't been able to verify if it is as wholesome as phragmites, with which I have probably over 20 experiences now. How does season affect brachystachys? Would it's alkaloid profile be different than in spring, like in the other species? Any 5 MeO DMT or tyramines? Would it be workable, viable? healing? Would it feel so right to ally in the long term? Let's see if and when I will be able to find answers to these questions.

BTW, it seems brachystachys needs sun and/or heat to grow big. All my pots have stopped growing after a point and have not come close to the biomass they were producing before midsummer. They probably will not flower either. I wonder how much bigger they can get if I make a greenhouse for them.

 

[fourthripley]

Dithyram, a brew report of mine from 2008, lifted from the Nook.
I have have found Brachystasis alkaloid levels peak in early, warm, autumn, with another peak in late spring.Levels appear to tail right off in cooler periods, although I have never looked in winter. My strain I believe to contain 5 meo but I believe there are pure NN strains.

To further get a feel for the alkaloid profile/amounts and determine the usefulness of this plant I decided to conduct some oral + maoi experiments.
150mg of Manske extracted harmaloids was disolved in warm water and drunk and the juice of 30g wet foliage consumed 20 minutes later. I felt I may have detected
a faint effect not totally attributable to the harmaloids, but too weak that it couldn't be put down to placebo.
For the next experiment, thinking I may have underdosed on the maoi component for my body mass, I upped the dose to 250mg.
At 12.00 today I consumed the above followed 20 minutes later with the juiceof 60g foliage.If in doubt double the dose...
12.30: first alert
12.45: a definite effect, resigned to things dropping off here but hoping they don't.
12.55: this is not a dud. A moderately strong dmt effect. Only minor visual distortions and no patterns but an unmistakeable positive. Everything has 'the look'. Difficult to describe, a very organic and 'clean' feeling. Euphoria. I would maybe compare it to the 5 minutes after vaping 50mg of fb, only without the 'weight', and much extended over time. A plateau over a period of an hour with waves of increasing intensity gently lapping throughout.
14.00: rapidly drops away and I feel able to engage in light conversation. Feeling great, with colours still pleasantly enhanced with occasional echoes of the peak. The past hour and a half subjectively much longer than it was.
14.30: baseline. Negotiated a busy supermarket without incident.
No nausea or other unpleasant effects were experienced at any point during or after the trial.
No dietary restrictions of any kind were observed during either experiment. On both occasions I consumed strong coffee an hour before and a couple of hours after ingestion of harmaloids.
A success. It appears Phalaris Brachystasis does have a rather clean alk. profile and apparently at rather- if not very- high concentrations. The plants used had been lightly trimmed once as far as stressing, no hardcore plant cruelty involved. I am excited/quote]

In retrospect, 12 years later, I do recall feeling a little chest tightness during the experience which, at the time, I put down to feeling under the weather, but may well have been the presence of an unidentified alkaloid in the juice.

 

[dithyramb]

Thanks for sharing, fourthripley. The chest tightness could be attributable to dinking coffee an hour before ingesting the medicine... My strong experience was with just 18g fresh leaves. I also don't remember any recognizable DMT patterns. More like curvy visuals and meaningful visions. I recall a clear and strong talking presence, in even the weaker experiences. I also recall a long onset and waves.

What I really wonder is, why does it seem that all those people, including yourself, who had success with brachystachys a decade ago, did not follow through in the long term?

 

[Prima Materia]

What I really wonder is, why does it seem that all those people, including yourself, who had success with brachystachys a decade ago, did not follow through in the long term?

Maybe some of the relatively easy to grow and more consistent acacia species are to blame.