• Members of the previous forum can retrieve their temporary password here, (login and check your PM).

Phalaris Project

Migrated topic.
I don't know where I got this idea that plants that grow in the same habitat (not all of them of course) can have good synergistic effects. In the case of mint I am aware the plant has some medicinal uses and could therefore be potentially synergistic with phalaris or phragmites.

Dithyramb you make an excellent point about this whole project or other similar NEW projects to be a lot of hard work and serious dedication. This reminds me why the various traditional knowledge systems are to be preserved and studied - especially now with the new fancy lab gear available the options are even greater. Also the old knowledge systems have put so much time (generations) into for example studying plants and their effects that we can never put in with our limited time and human resources. We should of course be careful and not make stupid acts.

Can anyone throw any more light on the clay distillation process ? Sounds very interesting and it might have uses in other fields that I have not yet thought about.

I am more and more drawn into different approaches to work with plant/fungi materials that are more "ecological" or don't use nasty solvents that cannot be obtained relatively easily like ethanol with fermentation for example. I am aware that this is the approach many members of this community prefer as well. This mood or approach to work more with the "naturally" available materials. Of course the whole idea of working with phalaris/phragmites is in line with this idea as well.
 
Does the distillation process come in when smoking / vaping the extract? Or is it about something else altogether?
 
Triglav said:
Can anyone throw any more light on the clay distillation process ? Sounds very interesting and it might have uses in other fields that I have not yet thought about.
Click to expand...

Hi Triglav.
You have the name of the highest (sacred) mountain in Slovenia.

Do you mean distillation using a layer of clay, then a layer of plant powder and another layer of clay?

Jagube said:
Does the distillation process come in when smoking / vaping the extract? Or is it about something else altogether?
Click to expand...

If is the distillation explained weeks ago, the alkaloids coul be extracted by exuding.
This system works also with cacti.

It is interesting because you can cut off the maoi's.
 
Era/is said:
Have you ever distilled the plant powder?

You can put a layer of clay in the still, then one of phalaris powder and then clay.
The powder thus does not burn and rising slowly with the temperature a liquid is obtained.
Click to expand...
If is the distillation explained weeks ago, the alkaloids coul be extracted by exuding.
Click to expand...
To reiterate:
I said:
Some questions:
Which type of clay is optimal? Would that be dry clay powder, like bentonite? What material is the distillation vessel made from? What form of distillation vessel is used - retort, alembic, round flask or something else? Does the liquid distill over and collect in a receiver vessel, or can it be collected from the upper surface of the clay?
Click to expand...
(Sorry if you're already composing a reply to this while I type!)
 
downwardsfromzero said:
Which type of clay is optimal? Would that be dry clay powder, like bentonite? What material is the distillation vessel made from? What form of distillation vessel is used - retort, alembic, round flask or something else? Does the liquid distill over and collect in a receiver vessel, or can it be collected from the upper surface of the clay?
Click to expand...
Initially I used clay that I collected in nature and treated at 450°C. You can heat the clay in a pan, also at lower temperatures. Using bentonite, kaolin or others I don't see much difference because they don't react.
Probably other minerals are also fine, each will give a different spectrum (spectrum of the alkaloid: taste, effect etc...) to the product you are looking for.
I used a pot turned into still using a lid of an still 25 centimeters in diameter. I also have a 40-centimeter one.
I heavn't heated with direct fire but with heated ceramic plate.

You can use the grass powder or the juice. Better is the dryed grass powder (dryed at room temperature).

The distiller can be made with glazed iron components/pots, stainless steel, ceramic copper etc... Copper turns a little green.

I collected the exudated steam by connecting a glass tube leading to a glass container. So you can see the formation of liquids or salts.
In the clay I didn't see great things but I didn't think about it. Your question is interesting.

With grasses it is simple, cacti instead must be processed A/B style or similarly.



My recent, tentative experiments with Phalaris var. picta indicated this same toxicity problem when combined with rue tea. Something wasn't quite right and it didn't seem worth the risk to health (and possibly life) to continue without finding a safer path.
Click to expand...
You can extract the alcaloids of phalaris for use them safely or better.
Every plant containing DMT contains also MAOI's and also the Phalaris contains them.

I didn't found a natural source of pure dmt without inhibitors.
The juremamine of mimosa can be destroyed/converted* by heating but is bot sure.

*Converted: it converts into another molecule which, however, bears the trace of maoi

In my opinion, crossing the border using maoi is like bribing to obtain the permit. Perhaps some psychoactive amines could replace the maoi but these are experiments and I do not recommend doing tests that could be dangerous.


I hope that we do not deviate too much from the argument of dithyramb, since it is dedicated exclusively to phalaris.
 
Thought I might contribute to this wonderful thread 😁
I've been growing aquatica var. australian for a few months now, trying extractions but never getting anywhere. The most promising result I got was recently, when I ran an extraction on 70g late summer aquatica, 30g early autumn aquatica, 60g mid autumn aquatica and 25g mid autumn brachystachys, all of which had been frozen for varying periods of time. All I got from this experiment was a few mg of dark tan, needle-like crystals that produced no effects at all when smoked. Wah wah.

Partly in frustration, I decided to attempt a brew with the rest of my rue that I had lying around, around 3g. I harvested ~15g brachystachys and ~15g aquatica at 10am, and brewed this for 8h, topping up with water whenever it got low. This length of time was most certainly unnecessary, but I was doing other things around the house that day so I figured I would just keep it brewing until I was ready. I crushed the rue and brewed it in water for 1h with a bit of lemon juice (I don't think either the long time or lemon juice was necessary, does anyone know anything about this?). I reduced the rue tea to around 150-200mL, then drunk it, and then followed it with the phalaris brew, reduced to around 300mL? and drunk an hour later. I didn't feel any noticeable effects from the rue, but within 10 minutes of drinking the phalaris brew strong effects were already taking hold. I purged at around the 15 minute mark, and considering I was beginning to get a bit unnerved, I decided to have a hot shower to calm down. I lay down under the shower as it was getting a bit hard to move, let alone stand up for an extended period of time. At this point, there were noticeable muscle tremors, increased blood pressure and a certain numbness in my limbs; none of these felt particularly dangerous at the levels they presented themselves, but I felt these could cause some more serious problems if the dose was higher. From here on, the trip was extremely grounded, and almost purely mental and emotional. There were pretty much no visuals at all, apart from a few fleeting moments of coherent patterns. Very clear, and seemed to have a kind of agency that was very interesting; it would deliver these one-liners so drenched in contextual meaning that I could just instantly grasp them. It felt very healing and very much a teacher compared to anything I've ever encountered before. Effects peaked at around 1h after drinking the phalaris brew, and the effects subsided enough to get up and make food and such by around the 1.5-2h mark.

Overall, I can see enormous potential, although the physical side effects were certainly unsettling. I know there was definitely no dmt in this brew, but I'm not sure what the effects were caused by; 5-MeO-DMT is my best guess at the moment, but if anyone has any ideas please let me know. In a week or so, I'm going to try a purely brachystachys brew without any maoi, using more fresh brachystachys than I did this time. This way, I can confirm if it was 5-MeO-DMT (if I'm correct, 5-MeO-DMT is active without an maoi) or just if it's active without an maoi in general (and also so I can see if the physical side effects are as pronounced or present at all without an maoi). I'd be quite excited if this turns out to be the case 😁 I'll update on the results of this experiment when the time comes.
 
Thanks for your report, titus! 5 MeO DMT is said to be active sublingually, not orally. To me there seems to be a higher likelihood of aquatica being active orally on its own (with built in maois), but who knows until we have done the experiments. As far as I understand, a "No BS teacher of truth" vibe and whole body/wholistic feel (vs the 3rd eye exclusivity and chaotic/fragmented feeling of DMT) can be hints for the presence of 5 MeO DMT

Unfortunately my Phalaris experiments have come to a stall. I got three harvests from my Phalaris garden, two in the winter and one in early Spring. Now they have flowered and are not growing back their leaves. The exponential gain of seeds feels good.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_20210425_170147.jpg
    IMG_20210425_170147.jpg
    3.9 MB · Views: 0
  • IMG_20210425_170054.jpg
    IMG_20210425_170054.jpg
    4.4 MB · Views: 0
dithyramb said:
Thanks for your report, titus! 5 MeO DMT is said to be active sublingually, not orally. To me there seems to be a higher likelihood of aquatica being active orally on its own (with built in maois), but who knows until we have done the experiments. As far as I understand, a "No BS teacher of truth" vibe and whole body/wholistic feel (vs the 3rd eye exclusivity and chaotic/fragmented feeling of DMT) can be hints for the presence of 5 MeO DMT
Click to expand...
I recall reading that 5-MeO-DMT was active orally, just that it wasn't particularly pleasant (and sometimes even fatal in some cases when combined with an maoi) by this route of administration, with there being more of a body load comparable to other tryptamines like bufotenine compared to when being smoked or taken sublingually.

Also, the holistic feeling definitely rings a bell, and I realise I probably should add a few extra details about the trip that might help narrow the active ingredient(s) down: the trip wasn't propulsive at all, as is the case with mushrooms and particularly LSD. It always brought me back to the moment at hand, and this made for an extremely slow passage of time (I was repeatedly shocked by how little time had passed); the sense of focus on the present was similar in a way to my experience with bufotenine, which lacks that disorientating and maddening edge of particularly LSD, instead leaving you pretty much mentally clear. Additionally, feelings of love were very strong, as was a feeling of understanding of fundamental properties of mind and reality; it was like I was feeling (in a fairly tactile sense) how information is collated by the mind into mental structures, the sum total of which forms what we call reality. So I suppose then that it had quite the analytical edge, but also this encompassing healing and emotional intensity.

But yes, we won't really know until some experiments are done, so I'll be sure to give an update on that as soon as possible :) Once again, thanks for starting and continuing to work on such a fascinating thread!
 
Long story short, the phalaris brew without an maoi did not deliver the goods.

I harvested 30g fresh brachystachys and 15g aquatica at 10am (same as last time), and boiled the grass in around 1L (maybe more?) water for 4h with a bit of citric acid. After 4h, the grass was removed and the brew was reduced to a shot. Drinking this produced slight effects, but nothing I would call psychedelic. The furthest it got was slight numbness and occasional perplexing and tangential thoughts.

It's possible that alkaloid content has reduced since two weeks ago, as I recall reading somewhere that in the southern hemisphere alkaloid content peaks in mid April, but I'm probably more inclined to believe that nothing happened due to the lack of an maoi.
 
Thanks, titus!

My gut feeling is that brachystachys won't be orally psychoactive by itself, but aquatica and truncata is likely. 15g fresh is not a lot, also growth phase of the plant makes a huge difference...

I have only tried truncata by itself because I felt a very strong spirit presence in it. İt really was psychoactive, not exactly in a tryptaminish way, but more like beta carbolines. Felt very good for me, and the loving and talking spirit presence was clearly there.

There are many variables in these experiments... I will go further in this study, just not this year - a fresh father is busy like no other time he remembers in life!

Cheers.
 
Finally I am going through last year's harvest. I know the general consensus is that grass is to be prepared fresh, but since Appleseed suggests drying and simmering to eliminate unwanted components, I wanted to give it a try. My experience suggests that using vinegar also pulls more unwanted, so I also quit using acid and I just simmer at around 80 C.

In short, dried grass still works. I used 5g for aquatica and 4g for brachystachys, orally with rur.

The leg stimulation (possibly from tyramines/phenylamines) of aquatica was absent, and any toxicity was not noticable so Appleseed was on to something. This is a 5 dominated strain and my experience of it fresh was like a constant seamless ecstatic orgasmic buzz. I had hoped that drying would change it to be more Ayahuasca like with a teacher presence but it was the same as before, with less euphoria and less DMT. A constant lift off and a heavy feeling in the head, but overall very good and positive feeling.

I had also hoped that brachy would be less sedative when dried, but this didn't change either. DMT was much more noticable than in aquatica, and it was much more Ayahuasca analogue-like. Felt very safe. It all felt very positive and healing.
 
Second brachystachys experience:

10g dry, orally with rue.

It was the strongest DMT experience I have had in years. I have strong experiences with other grasses but they are not pure DMT as brachy consistently feels. DMT visions to the maximum... This is like chacruna in grass form, plus a unique sedative drunkenness.

Feminine, delicate, deep, mysterious. Sensual...

🙏✨

P.S. There doesn't seem to be a serious loss of potency with drying...
 
dithyramb said:
Second brachystachys experience:

10g dry, orally with rue.

It was the strongest DMT experience I have had in years. I have strong experiences with other grasses but they are not pure DMT as brachy consistently feels. DMT visions to the maximum... This is like chacruna in grass form, plus a unique sedative drunkenness.

Feminine, delicate, deep, mysterious. Sensual...

🙏✨

P.S. There doesn't seem to be a serious loss of potency with drying...
Click to expand...
That's amazing :thumb_up:
Are specific plant parts isolated, or all of it? Roots?
Thanks.
 
Hi Jees! I harvested only leaves, following the guidelines that it is only the leaves that are active.
I don't know if roots were ever analyzed but leaves can be harvested again and again from regrowths so they are the most practical.
 
Another experience with brachystachys. Simmered in lower heat, single medicine with rue.

I am very impressed. This the closest thing to original Ayahuasca I have ever experienced.

In my experience so far, it appears that all grass has a certain poison, ranging from deadly to messing up the quality of the experience or to just block the tryptamines. I don't know if gramine is involved but if it is, I am certain it is not the only poison. I have not come upon a wild strain that is straightforward and ready to go as are the amazonian leaves.

Brachy is the highest quality grass I have come upon regarding the poisons so far. Lowering the heat appears to have minimized the sedativeness, and the experience is of pure "queen of the forest" chacruna kind.

Brachystachys and certain strains of aquatica are the ones to consistently provide powerful tryptamines. I have not come across a wild pure DMT (in tryptamines, and its poison content has always been complex) strain of aquatica. The DMT dominant aquatica that I found, setting aside the poisons, had a different feel than chacruna contrary to brachystachys. Glassy, oily, masculine.

All other grasses appear inconsistent in being active.
 
Thanks for all the reports, this is golden stuff, but please do be careful with it !!!!

I'm gonna look into phalaris now, gonna need a new hobby anyways, may be test out some stuff to see how it goes.

What are your future plans, considering the next few months/years, and how are your general thoughts with phalaris grass and its dmt contents, after all of this? :)
 
I have just tried a brachystachys brew, completely expecting to have nothing at all happen, and I was completely blown away.
I used 35g of fresh grass from 1 month old seedlings, and harvested it at dawn. I'm in the southern hemisphere, so it's autumn here. I simmered the grass on medium heat with some lemon juice for 45 minutes, saved the liquid, then did a second boil the same way. I combined the boils then reduced them down to 100mL or so, which I added to a glass which I filled the rest of the way up with pineapple/mango/whathaveyou juice. I ended up freezing the concoction as I didn't end up drinking it when I planned to, and this morning I moved it to the fridge to let it thaw.

I took around 175mg or so of rue extract at 8:15pm, then drunk the brew at 9:30pm. Let me say first, I am appalled at how potent this stuff is. I went from completely sober and expecting very little at 9:30pm to being barely able to hold myself together at 10:00pm, throwing up in the shower that I ran for myself to try and calm down a little. At this stage, I felt in very serious peril. I was seriously wondering if I needed medical help, as I was shaking, my heart rate felt very high and I felt like I was struggling to stay conscious. Luckily, this passed quite quickly. I got out of the shower and returned to my room, where I collapsed on the floor, unable to move. Then the visual/mental effects began to come on in a serious way, while the physical side effects rapidly diminished. I have never been as completely torn apart as I was at that point. I was pinned to the floor, in total disbelief that the experience had taken on such colossal proportions and with such speed, swimming in total ecstasy. The visuals were vivid, brightly coloured, intricate, and very intesnse. They lacked distinct symmetry, and were fluid-like, perhaps one could them 'organic'. There were no entities, no visions. At this point I thought it would be a good idea to listen to music. It was. I chose a song more or less at random and I happened upon Thursday Afternoon by Brian Eno, and I couldn't believe my ears it was so beautiful. Then Passarim by Tom Jobim, then some Return to Forever. I was beginning to feel like I was coming down, but it had only been an hour to and hour of half. Writing now, at 1am, I feel entirely down, more or less exactly as I did before I started. I was a bit surprised at how quickly it came and then left, only lasting around 2-3 hours.

It is pretty unbelievable that this grass can be so potent. How can 35g fresh material do such a thing? It seems almost too good to be true. However I must highlight that the comeup was very rough, and through most of it I was just trying to wait it out, all the while praying that I would come out the other side in one piece. Luckily I did, but it was enough to stop me from thinking of rushing to try it again. In any sense, it seems to me that brachystachys is the best phalaris, for oral brews at least. All the grass I used was grown from seed that I collected from a dozen to two dozen different brachystachys plants that I let go to seed last year, and each phalaris seedling harvested was quite small, maybe 2-4 leaves each. This means that the potency, and furthermore the physical side effects, are very unlikely attributable to a genetically unusual plant, therefore meaning that the average brachystachys plant, at least during the seedling stage in autumn, is extremely potent, with (in the scheme of things) manageable side effects. For this reason, brachystachys seems like the ideal choice for further work, especially when one considers how easily it can be cultivated, and its renewability, with plentiful amounts of very viable seed able to be easily harvested every year (I might add that it seems to like cultivation a little too much; its seeds have somehow everywhere, with little phalaris seedlings popping up in any bit of soil in my balcony garden, even in freshly made potting mix. I am constantly pulling out phalaris seedlings). I might try and repeat this experiment in 1-2 months time using the regrowth, for the sake of science, as I wonder if the potency of the regrowth, especially during early winter, could be comparable to what I've just experienced. I'll have to wait and see.

Edit: I thought I might elaborate further on the growing conditions. The seedlings were all grown together in 60cm or so diameter pot, which is made of some kind of thick plastic. The seedlings were always in partial shade, and watered weekly (although sometimes twice a week). They were watered usually with tap water, although every second or third week I watered them with seaweed solution mixed with tap water. The soil was just premium potting soil, brunnings brand I think, which had been used to grow all kinds of things in the past. In the last year I think it had fennel, brachystachys, california poppy, although I can't really remember that well.
 
Thanks for the elaborate report, Titus!

I have not experienced such debilitating side effects with brachystachys. Your crazy side effects report reminds me of when I felt at the brink of physical death with aquatica. That time I had used very young seedlings. It was my second experience with this strain. The first one was a moderate DMT experience with annoying but not serious side effects. It was with plants that had flowered. And with the second experience with the seedlings, the DMT was insane, as were the side effects. My stance with grass has become to not aim for the most potent form, but rather the safest and most efficacious form. I have one more experience with a young grass which again felt like it was going to kill me. Both reports are in this thread. So for me it seems clear that seedlings are not the way to go. And drying and simmering and not adding any acid is my protocol.

"Struggling to stay conscious" and "heart pounding" you said, these seem to be the common side effects of all phalaris. Who knows what's causing them, and they have to be completely eliminated if the grass is to be allied in the long term. Brachystachys has been the mildest to me in side effects, but what you describe sounds as serious as what I experienced with other phalaris. Some brachystachys is said to have 5 Meo DMT. Do you think yours does, and contributed to the side effects? Mine has no 5.

JustB, thanks for reading. Yes I am careful going into jungles where practically no one has gone before. I will continue to get to know brachystachys in the near future. I don't know if I will pursue aquatica any longer. Consumer society, having run its course with DMT and other psychedelics is really promoting 5 Meo DMT at this time and that has sparked my interest in aquatica. That fad shall also pass, said the Buddha. And everybody gotta stick to what is meant for them.
 
Thanks both of you for the replies, great stuff right here.

One quick question though. If lets say I'm to go and start looking for wild phalaris, especially phalaris B, next week, and have a bunch of plants with pictures of all parts, could we easily identify those, or is it difficult you tihnk?
 
Back
Top Bottom