Pharmahuasca trip

[Infundibulum]

Last night some guy I was chatting on the internet was describing me his pharmahuasca experience. It went like this;

T00:00 200mg harmala alkaloids (extracted from syrian rue), were ingested

T03:00: 3 hours later he took 200mg more harmalas

T03:40: 200mg dmt-fumarate were ingested.

Effects started after an hour, and lasted for 5 hours. But the effects were pretty boring. He had mild OEVs and almost absent CEVs. A feeling of sluggish sleepy feeling was creeping over him and got into a semi-sedative (probably too much MAOIs?) stupid trance.

T06:30: He snorted a couple of lines of coke to straighten him up, that seemed to helped a lot.

The rest of the trip was also boring and pretty uninteresting.

Is is how pharmahuasca is supposed to be? No breakthroughs, no strong emotions, no revelations, a waste of time in other words. He should have done shrooms instead...

Or he did not take enough dmt? In a previous pharma attempt he found that 90mg hardly give any noticeable effects. If 200mg fumarate (or ~140-150mg freebase) are still not enough, how much more he needs to take? 500mg?

Or could it be that what he ate prior to the experience had some negative effect? He had around 2 litres of ale and half a Venison salami 1 hour before the first harmala alkaloids ingestion.

Any input would be greatly appreciated!

 

[prey]

For my cousin's buddy I know, this is what he did:

t+0 - Harmala HCl (300 mg)
t+40 - DMT freebase dissolved into lemon juice (200 mg)

This was on an empty stomach about an hour and a half after he woke up. He had not done any drugs in about 6 months. He told me this was the most powerful trip he had ever had.

Having experimented a lot with harmala alkaloids, he says that their effects dominate the effects of DMT, except at the peak. Harmala alkaloids last longer and are more intense than DMT, except at the peak.

Was SWIY's harmala a freebase or hydrochloride salt?

If it was freebase, 200 mg is a large enough dose to have strong effect. 300 mg of harmala alkaloid freebase is enough to guarantee my buddy will puke and he says it isn't very fun. However, 300 mg of HCl salt is much more enjoyable and a good solid dose.

When SWIM did pharmahuasca, he took the DMT freebase as soon as he "felt" something from the harmala. This usually occurs 30-40 minutes after a person takes it.

When SWIM did it, he added 200mg DMT freebase to lemon juice, and stirred until dissolved (which takes a super long time, so he says) and drank that.

Based on what my cousin's friend told me:

SWIY took a bit too little fumarate to have a strong effect,
May have taken too much/too little harmala depending whether it was freebase or HCl salt,
Took the fumarate at the wrong time, at a point where the harmala may have had little MAOI effect.

My cousin's friend also told me that he screwed up before too. What happened in his case is he took too little harmala HCl and the DMT actually had zero effect because of that.

 

[polytrip]

If you use plant material instead of pure DMT (and with fumarate, i have no experience), then a good pharmahuasca mixture with these amounts of stuff is definately supposed to work.
When you look at the ratio plantmaterial/DMT, then with the plant-equivalent of 200 mg of DMT, you're completely in another universe and the difference between opening and closing your eyes is only a matter of details.
If you use DMT orally, then plant material is the best way. This was mentioned by other people in another thread as well, i believe it was in the 'information' topics, so it's not just my personal observation.

 

[prey]

Yes. So it was either non-active DMT or an MAOI issue. Or possibly some kind of drug interaction or cross-tolerance thing.

 

[The Traveler]

Normally pharmahuasca is pretty intence.

The salami contains tyramine and tyramine is an antagonist of DMT to bind to the active MAO-A enzymes. So first there are the MAOI's that render the MAO-A's helpless, then there is tyramine that highly competes with DMT for the remaining active MAO-A's. This results in even less active MAO-A enzymes to breakdown the DMT resulting in more active DMT in your body.

So that leaves out the salami. Only things left are the ale or some other unknown factor. Maybe you raped too much Space Invaders?

 

[prottel]

A feeling of sluggish sleepy feeling was creeping over him and got into a semi-sedative (probably too much MAOIs?) stupid trance.

Sounds like too much maoi. Syrian rue has a more sedative quality than caapi.

Is is how pharmahuasca is supposed to be? No breakthroughs, no strong emotions, no revelations, a waste of time in other words. He should have done shrooms instead...

That depends on how active the DMT is. Sounds like your absorption of dmt was a little low.

Or he did not take enough dmt? In a previous pharma attempt he found that 90mg hardly give any noticeable effects. If 200mg fumarate (or ~140-150mg freebase) are still not enough, how much more he needs to take? 500mg?

Try it with cacao or theobromine. But be careful...

 

[Infundibulum]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Both the dmt used and the harmalas were pretty much active. The harmalas were also as their hydrochloride salt....And the space invaders were left alone for quite a few hours!

There were indeed too much harmala alkaloids. But considering his previous dietary indulgences, he took 200mg harmalas, then waited for 3 hours (in case adverse symptoms would arise from possible tyramine poisoning). As long as he felt secure, he got the second dose of harmalas. MAOI inhibition should have been complete therefore when spice was ingested.

It is pretty weird, but this guy does not want to jump again into plant material. He's done it a couple of times using syrian rue and MHRB. Some quantity from both plant materials had been extracted and actives were isolated (that is to say that the plant material ingested was not bunk).

For him insofar, plant material sucked ass as big time. What 20g MHRB once provided him was nausea, vomiting, and very mild tripping, far inferior to the above described experience. Definitely not worth the physical wear-and-tear that accompanies the ingestion of such plant material.

He's thinking either to ingest more dmt-fumarate next time (i.e. >300mg) or bypass the oral route. That is, ingest the harmala alkaloids, then snort 150mg dmt fumarate.

He prefers the second way, amidst concerns that his digestive system might be misbehaving when it comes to drug intakes!

Or he did not take enough dmt? In a previous pharma attempt he found that 90mg hardly give any noticeable effects. If 200mg fumarate (or ~140-150mg freebase) are still not enough, how much more he needs to take? 500mg?

Try it with cacao or theobromine. But be careful...

No need for him to be careful, he wants to trip balls for at least 2 hours! He trips balls with smoked dmt, but that lasts too little!

 

[bufoman]

How sure is SWIM of the purity of the DMT fumerate. SWIM has heard that with FASA if the crystals are not washed excesivily it results in some residual fumeric acid crystals in the isolated product. Which by TLC show to be a pretty significant fraction of the isolated product, even after severeal acetone washes. Furthermore freebasing the isolated product and isolating the base results in far less then theoretical. SWIM would imagine that that much MAOI with only 75-100mg DMT freebase would be an intense journey.

 

[bufoman]

Also with only 100mg harmline oraly and 30mg THH and only 15mg freebased DMT one can have a break through experience. The peak is short as usual but the residual effects last over an hour. SWIm would guess that even less harmaline is required and more would only attenuate the intensity of the DMT experience while it would increase duration of effects.

 

[Infundibulum]

He is fairly confident that his dmt-fumarate was fairly pure. No contamination with fumaric acid is suspected. He never did TLC on the resulting salts though. The salts were produced by dissolving dmt in acetone and dmt fumarate was precipitated out using FASA. Even though the the final product was washed with acetone twice, he cannot see how fumaric acid could nave contaminated the final product.

He had also snorted dmt fumarate from the same batch at various amounts, all of them producing effects pretty much expected when compared to other people's experiences with dmt-fumarate snorting.

He does not think it is an issue of purity; in the most extreme case of say, 50% contamination of his dmt-fumarate with fumaric acid (insanely unlikely), this should still produce fairly decent effects.

This guy thinks the most likely suspect is his digestive system; In smoked and snorted dmt, he needs as much as the average person. In oral dmt, 140mg (in freebase terms) are piece of cake. In mushroom dosages, 5g dry is not even threshold for him. He can go to work, while his mates cannot stand from the floor with 2-3g from the same batch. He needs at least 15g for a good trip. For mescaline, he needs at least 800mg. For ecstasy, he needs at least 3-4 pills. One does absolutely nothing.

Generally, any numbers and dosages that people generally suggest do not mean much to him. He always needs to experiment to find what is actually good for him. It is just disappointing when one aims for Pluto and just reaches the upper floor of his apartment block. Especially when he does not have enough time/chances for tripping...

 

[Jorkest]

tell him to try some pure theobromine...take 300mg about an hour before he takes the dmt...and SWIM always does fine when taking the MAOI's and DMT at the same time...in warm water all mixed together..SWIM recommends about 100-150mg harmala's and say about 100mg dmt...this would be an insane overdose for SWIM but SWIY sounds like they need a lot...

also SWIM finds that if he eats ANYTHING before taking dmt orally..he has to take at least double the dose..

usually eats it on an empty stomach and then he eats a bowl of cereal to help his digestive system working..and thus getting more dmt into the blood stream...

but seriously..SWIY sounds like they need some theobromine..it may do wonders!

 

[prottel]

You could always try taking the dmt rectally. Might make the absorption from 3-15 times as potent as oral in your case...

In my case it is 3 times as potent, but as your oral absorption seems very low, it might be up to 15 times as strong...

 

[bufoman]

SWIY may have abnormaly high levels of MOI as these compounds are all degraded via MAO. Thus larger doses of MAOI or another route of admin will be necessary for significant effects. Also other enzymes are involved in the degradation of these compounds and this may explain SWIY high phenotypical tolerance. There are also other possibilities such as the pH of your digestive track, transport proteins, plasma protiens... thus there may be something you can do but there may not be.

 

[polytrip]

Maybe he has just abnormal amounts of MAO in his stomach. Maybe he would need even larger amounts of MAOI's. 20 grams of mimosa is supposed to totally engulf you, if properly prepared.
The most potent aya/pharmahuasca additive i know is chaliponga. Chaliponga is fairly cheap, you can ingest large amounts of it because it has no faul taste and is incredibly potent.
Taking more then 200 mg of spice and not noticing much is such a waste.
I recommend: firstly, to take a larger amount of MAOI's; secondly, to make an extract using an immense amount of chaliponga and see what one cup of it does. If it's the MAOI's i think you can save the rest of the brew, if it's not, then you can take the rest of it.
40 grams of chali is cheaper then 200 mg of spice and more potent, since it also contains 5-MeO-DMT and bufotenin.

 

[prottel]

Mimosa doesn't taste bad if extracted properly. Extract with a percolator setup, then reduce some. Then use gelatin to remove the tannins and other crap. Should give you a water coloured brew, with a slight tint of red. 2 gram of this is a decent experience

 

[Infundibulum]

Thanks for the input guys!

I will tell this guy to start with totally empty stomach next time. This is what he is going to try:

a) take 300mg of theobromine ala Jorkest
b) 1 hour later take 500mg MAOIs mixed with 250mg of dmt-fumarate
c) If nothing spectacular happens after 2 hours of MAOI/dmt ingestion, snort 150mg more dmt fumarate.
d) reserve some mushrooms to top up if necessary

He wants to get totally cunted!

 

[bufoman]

SWIM would take the MAOI at least 30 minutes before the DMT FUMERATE to give it ample time to inhibit MAO.

 

[The Traveler]

Looking at your list I think you have to take less MAOI's. With even more MAOI's you might get more sleepy and have an increased bodyload.

I once took too much DMT (about 180mg) with about 150mg rue extract. I couldn't remember much of the journey but afterwards I felt like I was in a state of shock. So be carefull what you wish for.

 

[prey]

SWIM would take the MAOI at least 30 minutes before the DMT FUMERATE to give it ample time to inhibit MAO.

I agree with this. Everything else on the list sounds good. Add 30 minutes between the MAOI and the DMT Fumarate is all.

 

[logos2012]

Of the 2 pharmahuasca journeys SWIM has had, the first was quite intense and the second not so much. The first was 200 mg Caapi harmaloids followed by 200mg freebase DMT that was extracted with DCM 40 minutes later. The second was 200mg syrian rue harmaloids followed by 200mg DMT extracted with Bestine 40 minutes later. On the second adventure SWIM wanted to take a hit of freebase but didn't have a lighter and did not want to drive to the store. Finally after he had come almost all the way down a FOAF stopped by and he took a 90mg hit of the bestine freebase with SWIM. This was one of SWIM's most intense and amazing experiences. SWIM's favorite experiences have been when he ingested 200 mg rue harmaloids then smoked about a 90 mg hit 40 - 70 minutes later. SWIM's advice is if your experience is kind of weak by eating both, maybe you should try to hit some freebase.