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Pharmahuasca
- Thread starter acolon_5
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Assuming the same amount of MAOI, and that you have a similarly empty stomach I suggest -
1mg dmt per pound of body weight is a high dose. So if it's 150 lbs, try 75 + 75 mg separated by 10 minutes - drink in 2 oz of orange+lemon juice. You'll be flying in 75 minutes, but actually laying flat on the couch/bed for 2 - 3 hours.
0.7 mg / lb is also a fairly debilitating charge - take it also in 2 hits, 5-10 mn appart this minimizes the chance of a pukey-reaction as the dmt-freebase is alkaline, and your stomach is at pH 1.5 ...
any less than a full 0.5 mg / lb-body weight I think is weak - you want the medicine to 'hit' you ... not get washed out in bodily metabolism. I like Heavy CEV, but at any less than 0.5mg/lb I think they may not be 'full enough' ... or the peak will be 'broad' and shallow.
At 0.3 mg/ lb body-weight I feel that your blood volume alone will dilute the dose - more so if you have more blood in you than other folks obviously, but you need to 'top-up' the blood system with enough dmt to circulate in all of your blood system, running into MAO enzymes on the way to the blood-brain-barrier .. On MAOIs it cruises around for about 2 hours, so 150 mg dmt for my 148 lb weight, can deliver a long 'peak' .. a bunch of peaks !
1mg dmt per pound of body weight is a high dose. So if it's 150 lbs, try 75 + 75 mg separated by 10 minutes - drink in 2 oz of orange+lemon juice. You'll be flying in 75 minutes, but actually laying flat on the couch/bed for 2 - 3 hours.
0.7 mg / lb is also a fairly debilitating charge - take it also in 2 hits, 5-10 mn appart this minimizes the chance of a pukey-reaction as the dmt-freebase is alkaline, and your stomach is at pH 1.5 ...
any less than a full 0.5 mg / lb-body weight I think is weak - you want the medicine to 'hit' you ... not get washed out in bodily metabolism. I like Heavy CEV, but at any less than 0.5mg/lb I think they may not be 'full enough' ... or the peak will be 'broad' and shallow.
At 0.3 mg/ lb body-weight I feel that your blood volume alone will dilute the dose - more so if you have more blood in you than other folks obviously, but you need to 'top-up' the blood system with enough dmt to circulate in all of your blood system, running into MAO enzymes on the way to the blood-brain-barrier .. On MAOIs it cruises around for about 2 hours, so 150 mg dmt for my 148 lb weight, can deliver a long 'peak' .. a bunch of peaks !
Fable
Rising Star
From what I have read a number of Ayahuasca brews that were prepared in South America were analysed and the total amount of DMT that was present in the brew was around 30mg total.
The last time I had aya it was a fairly strong brew for me, not a lot of OEV's but plenty of dreamscape CEV's I drank a top up shot almost equivalent to the first shot at around the 2 or 3 hour mark (its hard to tell :shock: ) and the whole thing lasted a good 8 hours.
I have no idea how much DMT would have been in the brew but reading things like 100mg makes me nervous, it sounds like a helluva lot especially when you read up on brew preparation on the Ayahuasca forums. I know pharmahuasca is not the same but for me 0.3mg per lb equates to approx 50mg DMT total and I find it difficult to fathom that 50mg would be a super weak dose.
Are you trying to replicate Ayahuasca or completely loose contact with conscious reality?
While on Ayahuasca I was wiped out and seeing amazing visions but was very scentient about my physical surroundings, I could get up and go to the toilet or make a cup of tea if I needed it and go right back to CEV dreamscape.
It sounds to me that you are not only trying to go further down the rabbit hole but pop out the other side as well.
I'm not knocking anything about this thread, just trying to put some perspective into it. If I didn't know better I would think I needed 150mg however I think that would probably leave me unconscious in a pile of drool. I've been there before and it isn't nice
The last time I had aya it was a fairly strong brew for me, not a lot of OEV's but plenty of dreamscape CEV's I drank a top up shot almost equivalent to the first shot at around the 2 or 3 hour mark (its hard to tell :shock: ) and the whole thing lasted a good 8 hours.
I have no idea how much DMT would have been in the brew but reading things like 100mg makes me nervous, it sounds like a helluva lot especially when you read up on brew preparation on the Ayahuasca forums. I know pharmahuasca is not the same but for me 0.3mg per lb equates to approx 50mg DMT total and I find it difficult to fathom that 50mg would be a super weak dose.
Are you trying to replicate Ayahuasca or completely loose contact with conscious reality?
While on Ayahuasca I was wiped out and seeing amazing visions but was very scentient about my physical surroundings, I could get up and go to the toilet or make a cup of tea if I needed it and go right back to CEV dreamscape.
It sounds to me that you are not only trying to go further down the rabbit hole but pop out the other side as well.
I'm not knocking anything about this thread, just trying to put some perspective into it. If I didn't know better I would think I needed 150mg however I think that would probably leave me unconscious in a pile of drool. I've been there before and it isn't nice
Attention All Shipping
Rising Star
While I've had a few different experiences (DMT, shrooms, 2C-I) I've generally been quite hardheaded, with problems breaking through on DMT, so generally not so strong experiences apart from once with shrooms & a few smoked DMT experiences. Only ever had ego death once before but I think I'm ready for it (famous last words eh).Endlessness said:
It's more the time & opportunities to try pharmahuasca rather than the lack of available spice that would limit opportunities to try it again.
Would it be worthwhile taking 75mg to start & if its felt necessary taking the other 25mg say an hour+ in? or would the last 25mg be wasted by returned MAO's or just used extending duration or keeping me at the same level?
I've got set & setting taken care of - I'm in a good place mentally now & have darkend rooms to start with with a bed/couch to crsh on with some good tunes on the stereo (shpongle, orb, boards of Canada, etc) and a garden filled with nature I can relax in if I'm feeling brave enough/capable enough to venture outside later on.
Yes I'll do that.
El Ka Bong - I don't think I'm ready for 150mg, even in 2 lots of 75. I'm limiting myself to 100mg at the max this time, as last time it was 50mg. So stepping up gradually - just not sure how gradually.
Is there any difference or benefit in taking the spice spread out in 2 lots rather than all at once? apart from minimising the nausea/sickness.
I'm 140lb so 0.3mg/lb would be a little low, less than the 50mg that's been tried previously - then it was fairly mild with just psychelogical/mind effects & increased brightmess of vision - but no CEV or OEV which I'd like to experience this time.
Attention All Shipping
Rising Star
I'm sure you know already but there's so much else (other alkaloids) in 'proper' Ayahuasca that the DMT level can be so low & still give a strong experience - with extracted DMT it's different in that only the DMT is gin=ving a effect (with the MAOI of course).Fable said:
I'm open to whatever comes (again a risky thig to say, but I think I'm prepared) but I'm aiming more to replicate ayahusca in as much as that's possible, as in still able to walk about, etc rather than completely loose touch with reality
that sounds about right, I don't want to go too far right now - happy to see whats a bit further down the rabbit hole but I'd have some trepidation about poping out the other side, so to speak. Not too keen on going as far as the unconcious pile of drool, though I don't think that 100mg would put me that far gone.
Thanks
Fable said:
and here lies one of the mysteries of pharmahuasca.. Mostly everyone taking pure extracted dmt says that a higher amount is needed compared to the reported ayahuasca dosages (Ott is the one that mentions this 30mg number ).. So why is that? There are a few possible reasons..
1- In normal ayahuasca sessions, people generally take more than one dosage. In santo daime, for example, it is generally at least 3 doses during a night.. So ppl are not limited to one 30mg, but to, say, 60 or 90mg or more... Whereas in pharmahuasca people take it all at once
2-In general, the b-carboline dosages in ayahuasca are quite strong, which may account to even less dmt being destroyed, or to a psychoactive effect of it´s own
3- One could also suppose that there is more to ayahuasca than the ´extracted purified principles´, that the whole synergy of the plants are responsible for stronger trips even in lower dosages..
4- Maybe people taking crystals dont have them purified enough, as compared to the accurate analysis where the ´30mg number in normal ayahuasca dosage´ came from.. Think about recrystallization, how one can lose half the amount of DMT depending on how yellow it is.. so maybe if everyone had very pure dmt the dosage would be closer to the reported analyzed one...
or maybe some other reasons one can think of... Fact is, it IS in general reported that more is necessary in extracted oral dmt... an interesting thing to research more about. SWIM is gonna try it out in 2 weeks, SWIM is 70kg (smt around 150 pounds I think) and is gonna try 100mg of double recrystallized white crystals, so lets see
Attention All Shipping said:
Im not exactly sure on the half-life of the b-carbolines is (I forgot, are you indeed using b.caapi or rue as MAOI?), so I dont know if, say, 2 hours after ingesting them, if they would still have sufficient action in the gut.. I do think so, so I think it would be ok to save another 25mg or more and decide to take or not after some time... but someone gotta confirm this.. maybe you can also save a small maoi dose to take a bit before the second dmt dose if you still dont feel anything?
the set and setting sounds as perfect as it can get outside of a ritual forest context
El Ka Bong said:
hey el ka bong.. would it theoretically be possible for one to, say, take the dmt and gulp it down with a bit of something acid like lemon juice or little vinegar, to neutralize the pH before/together with the stomach? would that help in diminishing the nausea?
I mean, what would happen? some dmt would turn into salt form I guess.. would that make it less active in any way? maybe one could make this ´mix´ inside the mouth even, before gulping it down, if it does help.. or putting the dmt in a lemon juice glass and then drinking it down? or would this all be a problem somehow?
Attention All Shipping
Rising Star
Right,
I decided to go with 100mg and the results were decidedly mixed, not what I was expecting or really aiming for. I think I made a mistake in the quality/type of spice I used: it was waxy yellowy spice which when smoked previously had seemed identicle to whiter spice in potency, though perhaps a bit longer lasting. I think when smoked it had more of a potential for impressive visuals too, though that may just be personal perception from 2 really good prior experiences with it.
Anyway I'd better begin at the beginning: At 12.35, call it T, I began drinking 200ml of harmala extract (from 3.5g Syrian Rue) on an empty stomach. I finished this in 10 minutes and, taking El Ka Bong's advice split my 100mg yellowy waxy spice into 2 halves. I took the 1st mixed in with orange juice at T+30 (though only 20 min after finishing harmala extract), sloshing the juice & spice around in my mouth for a few mins before swallowing (I find this is a good & quick way to absorb Tryptamines as they're absorbed buccally through blood vesels in the cheeks & under the tongue). I'd finished it by T+35 and then waited another 5 minutes before taking the 2nd half, in the same manner. By T+65 I was starting to feel a little fuzzyheaded and thought the spice was starting to come on. By T+85 it was definitely coming on, my walking was a bit higglety pigglety (not unsteady just not exactly straight lines) and the patterned ceiling above my bed was very clear and prominent, more so than usually. I was getting a little absorbed by patterns in the wallpaper though there were still no visuals (and wouldn't be I unfortunately found).
At T+105 there was no real change and, in the living room by this time I felt it was taking a long time & the effects weren't as prominent or forceful as previously so I thought about smoking some of the DMT in my lightbulb vapouriser pipe to potentiate the trip and try to jumpstart some visuals. By the time I'd got the pipe loaded though it didn't seem necessary as I'd gotten a sort of wave of feeling along with some nausea. It looked like this was the 2nd half of spice kicking in so I put the pipe away and streached out enjoying the music and the sensations I was feeling. Sense of touch was strong & I was paying a lot of attention to my own movements and sort of drifting off a little. I was getting increasingly tired and feeling sleepy and still had nausea. At T+125 I forced myself to get up and went for a shit, experiencing a strong bodyload while sitting on the toilet along with an appreciation of the tiles, slightly reflective surfaces of the bathroom. I could've sat there for a while but the change from the livingroom to the bathroom prompted me to go back to the livingroom opening up the curtains to let some more daylight in. Time was going a lot slower now and with a heavy bodyload and a pleasant all encompassing buzz I lay down again listening to Geogaddi & really grooving to the music. Excellent appreciation of the music. By this point (around T+140-150) my nausea was almost gone and I had an incredible sense of feeling, stroking my arms and enjoying the interplay of light against my fingers and other surgaces. There were some hints of visuals at the edes of things where light hit them but not really much. Breathing in and out was really intense, though I can't really describe how - it was a little like my whole body was a lung. I was still quite sleepy, which I now think is a function of the yelow waxy DMT though I hadn't previously noticed it, and trying not to give in to tiredness. Waving my arms around was very nice and freeing, though there was still a temptation to sleep and a feeling of couchlock.
At T+150 (surprised I'd only been lying there for about 15 minutes - felt longer) I got up to go to the kitchen to make some juice. I was a little confused there putting things in the wrong places but it was a nice change of scene and the colours of food, especially tomatoes, in the fridge were lovely.
With my juice in hand I decided to head outside as the garden looked so inviting from the kitchen window. Still a little discombobulated in my walking but not significantly so. The colours of the maple trees in the garden were beautiful, really bright and almost scarlett. New young lettuce & the grass were so green and bright and there was a really peaceful vibe with birds tweeting in the trees and butterflies flying about.I spent a bit of time walking about and sitting in the garden and talked to a neighbour, slightly surprising myself how much I managed to keep the conversation going - I did falter at points but don't think it was obvious I was on anything (neighbour wasn't the sort who'd notice or care anyway).
The pleasant buzz was still with me, as was the sleepieness & I kicked about the garden for around 45 minutes before going back inside. Listened to music again while lying on the couch. Textures were so much more than usual but I had no motivation to do anything other than lie on the couch enjoying the feeling & the music. I wasn't thikin much at all - no real opening of the imagination or conciousness. Though I did have a real sense of wonder at watching my fingers moveand seeing the light playing on surfaces again. I spent what seems like a good bit of time rubbing my arms and face - feeling of the individual hairs was really good.
By T+210 it wasn't that pleasant anymore, tiredness and couchlock was a lot stronger and the sense of sensation was wearing off. At T=215 I had an apple, change of scene going into the kitchen improved things a little but it was clear the spice was wearing off. By T+230 the feeling of tiredness was mostly gone and I was returning to normal. Maybe half an hour later I was back in a 'normal; state of consciousness, almost baseline.
All in all somewhat disappointing, the mental aspects of this experience weren't nearley as pronounced or enjoyable as my previous experience with 50mg (though it was pharmaceutical DMT so that probably explains it) and I'm disappointed that I didn't get any visuals, but in general I don't often get visuals on anything other than smoked DMT. I think next time I try pharmahuasca I'll be making sure I use the cleanest whitest spice I can instead of the yellow.
I decided to go with 100mg and the results were decidedly mixed, not what I was expecting or really aiming for. I think I made a mistake in the quality/type of spice I used: it was waxy yellowy spice which when smoked previously had seemed identicle to whiter spice in potency, though perhaps a bit longer lasting. I think when smoked it had more of a potential for impressive visuals too, though that may just be personal perception from 2 really good prior experiences with it.
Anyway I'd better begin at the beginning: At 12.35, call it T, I began drinking 200ml of harmala extract (from 3.5g Syrian Rue) on an empty stomach. I finished this in 10 minutes and, taking El Ka Bong's advice split my 100mg yellowy waxy spice into 2 halves. I took the 1st mixed in with orange juice at T+30 (though only 20 min after finishing harmala extract), sloshing the juice & spice around in my mouth for a few mins before swallowing (I find this is a good & quick way to absorb Tryptamines as they're absorbed buccally through blood vesels in the cheeks & under the tongue). I'd finished it by T+35 and then waited another 5 minutes before taking the 2nd half, in the same manner. By T+65 I was starting to feel a little fuzzyheaded and thought the spice was starting to come on. By T+85 it was definitely coming on, my walking was a bit higglety pigglety (not unsteady just not exactly straight lines) and the patterned ceiling above my bed was very clear and prominent, more so than usually. I was getting a little absorbed by patterns in the wallpaper though there were still no visuals (and wouldn't be I unfortunately found).
At T+105 there was no real change and, in the living room by this time I felt it was taking a long time & the effects weren't as prominent or forceful as previously so I thought about smoking some of the DMT in my lightbulb vapouriser pipe to potentiate the trip and try to jumpstart some visuals. By the time I'd got the pipe loaded though it didn't seem necessary as I'd gotten a sort of wave of feeling along with some nausea. It looked like this was the 2nd half of spice kicking in so I put the pipe away and streached out enjoying the music and the sensations I was feeling. Sense of touch was strong & I was paying a lot of attention to my own movements and sort of drifting off a little. I was getting increasingly tired and feeling sleepy and still had nausea. At T+125 I forced myself to get up and went for a shit, experiencing a strong bodyload while sitting on the toilet along with an appreciation of the tiles, slightly reflective surfaces of the bathroom. I could've sat there for a while but the change from the livingroom to the bathroom prompted me to go back to the livingroom opening up the curtains to let some more daylight in. Time was going a lot slower now and with a heavy bodyload and a pleasant all encompassing buzz I lay down again listening to Geogaddi & really grooving to the music. Excellent appreciation of the music. By this point (around T+140-150) my nausea was almost gone and I had an incredible sense of feeling, stroking my arms and enjoying the interplay of light against my fingers and other surgaces. There were some hints of visuals at the edes of things where light hit them but not really much. Breathing in and out was really intense, though I can't really describe how - it was a little like my whole body was a lung. I was still quite sleepy, which I now think is a function of the yelow waxy DMT though I hadn't previously noticed it, and trying not to give in to tiredness. Waving my arms around was very nice and freeing, though there was still a temptation to sleep and a feeling of couchlock.
At T+150 (surprised I'd only been lying there for about 15 minutes - felt longer) I got up to go to the kitchen to make some juice. I was a little confused there putting things in the wrong places but it was a nice change of scene and the colours of food, especially tomatoes, in the fridge were lovely.
With my juice in hand I decided to head outside as the garden looked so inviting from the kitchen window. Still a little discombobulated in my walking but not significantly so. The colours of the maple trees in the garden were beautiful, really bright and almost scarlett. New young lettuce & the grass were so green and bright and there was a really peaceful vibe with birds tweeting in the trees and butterflies flying about.I spent a bit of time walking about and sitting in the garden and talked to a neighbour, slightly surprising myself how much I managed to keep the conversation going - I did falter at points but don't think it was obvious I was on anything (neighbour wasn't the sort who'd notice or care anyway).
The pleasant buzz was still with me, as was the sleepieness & I kicked about the garden for around 45 minutes before going back inside. Listened to music again while lying on the couch. Textures were so much more than usual but I had no motivation to do anything other than lie on the couch enjoying the feeling & the music. I wasn't thikin much at all - no real opening of the imagination or conciousness. Though I did have a real sense of wonder at watching my fingers moveand seeing the light playing on surfaces again. I spent what seems like a good bit of time rubbing my arms and face - feeling of the individual hairs was really good.
By T+210 it wasn't that pleasant anymore, tiredness and couchlock was a lot stronger and the sense of sensation was wearing off. At T=215 I had an apple, change of scene going into the kitchen improved things a little but it was clear the spice was wearing off. By T+230 the feeling of tiredness was mostly gone and I was returning to normal. Maybe half an hour later I was back in a 'normal; state of consciousness, almost baseline.
All in all somewhat disappointing, the mental aspects of this experience weren't nearley as pronounced or enjoyable as my previous experience with 50mg (though it was pharmaceutical DMT so that probably explains it) and I'm disappointed that I didn't get any visuals, but in general I don't often get visuals on anything other than smoked DMT. I think next time I try pharmahuasca I'll be making sure I use the cleanest whitest spice I can instead of the yellow.
according to your previous posts, maybe you indeed have a certain natural tolerance to substances, so that could be a part of it.. Also maybe one should wait a bit more between the harmalas (like, say, 45 mins instead of 20-30) and taking the spice.. and yeah maybe whitest spice would make a difference..
all in all, does seem like your experience was pleasant one, even though dissapointing.. Thanks for sharing with us, hope next one goes better for you
all in all, does seem like your experience was pleasant one, even though dissapointing.. Thanks for sharing with us, hope next one goes better for you
Another option that was not mentioned is that the analysis did not accurately measure the dmt content. Remember originally mimosa was only supposed to have .5% but we are now seeing >1%endlessness said:
Also, with phramahuasca, regardless of MAOI dosage and type a threshold dose is around 150mgs. Clear, yellow, or white spice, it doesn't matter. I would double your dose, and remember that you can always re-dose if you are not where you want to be. I have personally switched to all natural aya journeys as I find it is more cost effective (suprisingly).
acolon_5 said:
can you explain yourself better? is it sure that the analysis was not accurate, or are you supposing it by taking as an example the fact that mimosa also usually was shown as .5 but ppl found more nowadays?
acolon_5 said:
Do you have any experience with taking more crystal after deciding ´you are not where you want to be´ ? I mean, say, 2 hours after dosing, is the maoi still active enough to take more crystals or should one dose again more maoi?
what about in a couple more hours after that, if one wanted to lengthen the experience, what should one do, take more maoi (and in that case, how much? same dose as before, like 3,5g rue, or less, or..?) and then again wait a bit and then take the dmt?
acolon_5 said:
personally SWIM never tried pharmahuasca, only natural ayahuasca, so SWIM wonders how it compares, if it can get as deep and meaningful as aya... but soon this shall be experimented on, probably in two weeks..
I have no proof, it is just something I thought of. I was using Mimosa as an example of poor analysis.
Oh yes, I would frequently redose until my desired level of activity was reached. I usually take a little more rue extract or caapi brew when redosing. I usually would start with 150mg spice 200mg harmine OR 30-40grams potent White Caapi vine. Boosters followed ever 45minutes following 50mg spice + 50mg rue extract OR swig of concentrated caapi brew. After a while of this I would total around 350mg spice + a lot of MAOI's Still the fully experience would only last 4.5 hours for caapi and a little longer if I was using the rue. However, if one is waiting longer then 2 hours or so, a stronger dose of both spice + MAOI's may be necessary. Rue lasts longer than Caapi as a general rule.
Pharmahuasca to me is more eye candy (esp with rue). Lots of visuals, not as much depth. To me a full aya experience goes much deeper, and can be extremely healing.
Fable
Rising Star
One thing I do know about jungle Ayahuasca is that if you get a good dose of the vine you don't even need the spice as a strong vine only can be quite an experience in itself.
I have no idea what a strong dose of pharma MAOI would be like but I suspect it wouldn't give you much compared to the vine.
I think that must be where the difference lies.
Im going Aya journeying next weekend 8) With the set and setting it is good medicine.
I have no idea what a strong dose of pharma MAOI would be like but I suspect it wouldn't give you much compared to the vine.
I think that must be where the difference lies.
Im going Aya journeying next weekend 8) With the set and setting it is good medicine.
Attention All Shipping
Rising Star
acolon_5 said:
I'm not convincd that 150mg is always a threshold dose. On my previous try of pharmahuasca, with 50mg, I experienced what I'd describe as a mild or threshold dose - no visuals but overpowering feeling of bliss and love & definite head change, active thoughts -actually a lot better & more insightful than this 100mg trip. I think 150mg of the same spice would be way more than a threshold dose.
I'm going to bear in mind the advice about re-dosing & increased doseage though.
Attention All Shipping said:
For me (YMMV of course) 150mg is threshold. It really depends on many factors though, diet before hand, prior tryptamine usage (if it build tolerance, such as mushrooms, 5-meo-mipt etc.), weight, eating habits, and probably quite a few I have not mentioned. Again though, you can always boost your dosage with some more MAOI + DMT crystals if you find that you are not where you want to be. If I may ask, how much do you weigh and how is your diet? I am 280lbs and eat pretty unhealthy (but this is finally changing!).
Attention All Shipping
Rising Star
Weight is 140lbs, diet is high in carbohydrates & fruit - potatoes, bread, meat, fruit & veg. Though not unhealthily so.
Yeah I think it'll vary. I certainly tend to have a high tolerance for psychedelics: naturally or psychelogically.
Yeah I think it'll vary. I certainly tend to have a high tolerance for psychedelics: naturally or psychelogically.
medicine 4 the mind
Rising Star
hi everyone, great site and good to see sites like this exist on the net. when swim tried pharmahuasca swim injested 3g of rue and 50-60mg of pale yellow dmt. the visual quality was only really noticeable at the peak but mentally was quite strong throughout the trip. swim weighs about 70kg and didnt eat for 24hr before the trip.
medicine 4 the mind said:
Hello and welcome!
Sounds like a strong rue experience. The MAOI's Harmine/harmaline + tetrahydroharmine (only in Caapi) are themselves psychoactive is psychoactive and will bring dark/dim visions even without any admixture containing dmt and for me, is highly mental.