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Phragmites Research

Migrated topic.
So I acquired some syrian rue earlier this month, dug for some roots (in the middle of between 2 agriculture fields, soil was damp but no water body near, roots weren't like the ones you would get from directly-near-a-water-body, they were much harder and drier).

Freeze/unfreeze the roots for the next 24h
Same with a rue dose of 5g's.

Shredded the roots in a blender, then I dried the material in the oven @ 75 celcius. Then I shredded the material in the blender to as finely as I could.

Did huasca attempts (w/o using vinegar) starting from 5g's of the dried root power, then 25g, then 50, then 75, 100, 200.
(each attempt w/ 5g's of rue, 45 mins between drinking the rue & the root brew in a shotglass size concentrate)

All failed. Not a single moleque of DMT was felt.

Then I went to the nearby lake. Dug for some fresh watery-rich roots, 1000 g's. Immediately put them in the freezer, thawed them the next day (together w/ a 6g dose of rue). Shredded the roots the next day & put them to boil for 3x 2h = 6h total. Didn't do any drying this time. I also used 2x 100ml white vinegar, 100 ml on each wash (except the 3rd last one). And 100 ml vinegar for making a syrian rue concentrate a.k.a boiling the water off till a shotglass size. Did two washes only on the rue, with the vinegar in the beginnig only. Oh yeah — and this time I used 6gs instead if 5, just to be sure.
Total amount of water used for the roots brewing was 3,5 l + 3 l + 1,5 l = 8 l total, and for the rue it was 1,5 l + 1 l = 2,5 l total. Tap water from own well.

And guess what happened?

Still fail.

So my only explanation that I didn't feel anything (apart from the rue effects I got) was because it's July & smo mentioned that after June Phragmites doesn't produce any DMT.

Question: Since my initial goal was to just trip — Anything I could try (that I've potentially missed) before I hop on the Phalaris bandwagoon? Or is it too late now & I gotta wait till next Spring?
 
Elchingy97, I never had success with hard, woody roots. I did have success with end of July rhizomes a few years ago... Though it was a muddied experience. Phragmites is a cocktail and each strain has its own good or bad signature. No grass is similar to Psychotria/Ayahuasca in my experience with the glowing exception of Phalaris brachystachys. Phragmites can be uniquely great, but is different.

Season is a factor as well as genetics. This species has quite some genetic diversity, similar to phalaris species. I actually have come to perceive it as a species complex.

Did you check whether the reeds you harvested had flowered yet?
 
After two years of experiences, I am pretty certain that bufotenine is the main alkaloid of this plant (in agreememt with Tawar et al). Very dreamy, sedative and musical... It's quite pleasant, but the problem is, bufotenine is not "mentally psychedelic"/ego dissolving. According to a Korean study (Studies on the indoles in the Common Reed), bufotenine is metabolized from DMT in Phragmites. Thus a higher percentage of DMT is found in the immature parts/phases of of the plant. It's like pectin vs sugar (DMT vs bufotenine) in fruit. And similar to the analogy, the plant's taste goes from sour to very sweet (fructose, sucrose, and glucose get concentrated) as it matures. I've had a few mind blowingly powerful experiences. The most ego dissolving was with stems of a certain strain in July. Not much visuals but quite a soul penetration and constant bombardment of truth which left me crying for days after the experience. It was most likely 5 Meo DMT dominant. The most immersive and visionary DMT experience was with leaves of another strain in June. I might have hundreds of experiences by now because I feel the plant is so good for me. The vast majority was not ego dissolving, but pleasant energetic alignment Bufotenine experiences.
 
You say your best experience was with leaves in June. If I go around and harvest some leaves from different patches (now that it's August) and make myself an ayahuasca — would I at least feel even a slight of a psychedelic? (apart from the rue high)

How much g's of leaves in fresh (or dry) weight?

Would you give me a green light to go, or should I not bother?

P.S No, the patch didn't have any flowers. (or at least I didn't notice any)
 
Hi elchingy97. Leaves have a certain block over their psychoactivity which is overcome by drying and simmering. In August you will most probably get a Bufotenine experience if you get something at all. I like it and find it very healing, but most other people seem to not be sensitive enough to appreciate it. You also need to have a good strain. Some bring in the euphoria but with an energetic chaos. Some, to the contrary align and empower. You can use 100g fresh leaves. Use top leaves of reeds that have not flowered and look young. Including the very top part of the stems will most likely boost the effect.
 
Hmm, interesting. Does this mean that it might be worth investigating the dry stems and leaves from my tub of reeds that recently partially dried out before they had flowered?
 
Yes, downward. Leaves are more consistent in retaining their tryptamines with drying in my experience. 50g dry is a good dose for testing. Phragmites is safe ime. Just achieving a proper full blown light effect is rare, effects are mild (Bufotenine and traces of DMT at best) most of the time. Bufotenine is said to not cross the BBB, but I am sure it does orally with rue, perhaps not with full efficiency.
 
dithyramb said:
Yes, downward. Leaves are more consistent in retaining their tryptamines with drying in my experience. 50g dry is a good dose for testing. Phragmites is safe ime. Just achieving a proper full blown light effect is rare, effects are mild most of the time. Bufotenine is said to not cross the BBB, but I am sure it does orally with rue, perhaps not with full efficiency.
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Super, thanks! Now I can be thankful for the friend who forgot to water the reed bucket while looking after my plants for me recently (especially since the reeds have survived and begun sprouting again).
 
So I just finished trying to make an ayahuasca w/ not 100 but an entire 500g's of fresh leaves, cut from young/short looking reeds, with thiner-than-the-others stems, together w/ the top of the stem. Right next to a water body, picking from different locations around the water body. Preparations & boiling procedures same as before, except that I used half a lemon on each wash, except the last 3rd wash, on both the rue boil & the leaves boil. 5g of rue (but managed to drink around 3-4 of it because of awful taste)

Nothing happened.
(except the rue buzz)

So I guess summer crops just aren't cutting it…

Or maybe the location(s) I got it from just isn't good? Would be nice if somebody can give it a go as well (during this month) & report if he did get results.
 
Excited to read the result!

Although it is strain and season dependent, my experiential guess is that bufotenine, 5 MeO NMT, and hordenine are the most common alkaloids. Substantial DMT and 5 MeO DMT are less standard. Gramine is said to be present but I am still not clear about the effects of gramine.
 
dithyramb said:
Excited to read the result!

Although it is strain and season dependent, my experiential guess is that bufotenine, 5 MeO NMT, and hordenine are the most common alkaloids. Substantial DMT and 5 MeO DMT are less standard. Gramine is said to be present but I am still not clear about the effects of gramine.
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I believe that there is some evidence that these compounds are used in cell elongation and growth in new areas of the plants (Phalaris specifically). So, the seasonal variation makes sense as at the end of the season the plants are starting to go dormant and not in growing stages. I would imagine that Phragmites is not dissimilar.

I collected some samples (small) of actively growing young plants that I just found. Should hopefully be enough for TLC. We shall see. Planning to collect more sample tomorrow and hope to get a larger quantity of material.

I think that qualitative analysis needs to be done to determine actual compounds. Quantitative could follow. It would also be interesting to follow it thru the season as well.

-D.
 
Dozuki said:
Can you give some information on the plants collected? Size young vs older plants, parts of the plants extracted, growing conditions?
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Leaves were collected from plants in the northern hemisphere in a temperate climate in early August, growing by a river. Most blades were already flowering, but the leaves were collected from the somewhat scarce ones that hadn't flowered yet.

The leaves were simmered first, which produced the first brew. Then the 'spent' material was pressure cooked, which produced the second brew.
The brews were reduced to a goo and basified with edible lime, then dried and pulled with 99.9% IPA.
 
Hello pioneer souls. Here is my review of my phragmites experience, and I will ask for some vital information to bring this project to practical success.

As you might have noticed, my goal is not to get pure DMT crystals but to discover workable methods with local plant spirits. I did discover on the way that there really are some impurities in plants that sometimes have to be eliminated, and I found this to be the case with all the grasses, including phragmites. Though phragmites appears to be safe (contrary to some phalaris species), there is a serious "anti psychedelic" component in it which hinders the light. Whatever it is (please give me your educated guesses), it is weakened by drying and and further weakened with time. This made me conclude that it is oxidation rather than an enzymatic process which destroys it. Unfortunately, the potency is also highly weakened by drying and this cannot be by oxidation, as DMT, bufotenine, and 5 MeO DMT are known to preserve ok when their plant sources are dried.

Out of the countless experiments I did drinking it's tea with rue, I had a few breakthrough experiences though none felt like the plain DMT of the Amazonian leaves. İn it's full capacity, the experience is highly visionary, musical, and insightful. The mind is always clear and I never experienced the visual distortions I get from the established DMT plants. This extra lucidity extends to the post experience days and I value it very much. Very strong, high definition inner music is experienced. it is obvious that Bufotenine is a big part of the essence of this plant... İt is documented to be the only tryptamine detected in dried material in one study (Tawar). I found a Phalaris brachystachys strain which emulates the Amazonian leaves much more precisely, with the mental and visual distortions and more raw energetic sound channelings (icaros). That's pure DMT. But I came to appreciate the phragmites unique medicine. I even prefer it for more frequent ingestions. But it needs a certain alchemical step to consistently achieve it's full power, purified from blocks.

İf the blocking element can be eliminated with a certain technique, then possibly fresh material can be used and it will not have to go through potency loss. The first thing that comes to my mind is, how about trying to add a base, as a lot of substances seem to oxidize in higher pH... What would you recommend trying? Please help me (us) out here.

I am looking to eliminate the block from the tea instead of isolating plain DMT.
 
dithyramb said:
İf the blocking element can be eliminated with a certain technique, then possibly fresh material can be used and it will not have to go through potency loss. The first thing that comes to my mind is, how about trying to add a base, as a lot of substances seem to oxidize in higher pH... What would you recommend trying? Please help me (us) out here.

I am looking to eliminate the block from the tea instead of isolating plain DMT.
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This really sets me thinking back to the clay distillation/pyrolysis method outlined by Era/is - I think that was in one of the Phalaris threads. So what we need to do is replicate the simplicity of that method but in treating tea. One suggestion would be to PC the grass brew with some zeolite. I cannot guarantee what the result would be, however - nor that it would be non-toxic (or toxic, for that matter). I simply do not know but alchemical intuition (of the obvious, maybe) brings this up as the first step.

The zeolite, or a similar active mineral substance such as bentonite, is likely to require some sort of pre-treatment to optimise this treatment.

Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege, et labora!
 
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