Phragmites Research

[dithyramb]

Thanks for the quick reply, downward. What is PC'ing? Could you explain your suggestions with more detail please?

I have not been able to find a clear description of the clay distillation process.

And what do you say about adding CaCO3 or CaO made from from egg/sea/snail shells to basify the tea so that the environment to oxidize whatever is most prone to oxidation is created? If this is done, I would prefer to separate out the added base after the process if possible, though if it dissolves this may not be possible.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Sorry, I should have just said cooking in the Pressure Cooker. And the lack of detail is due to my ideas coming in the form of 'feeling-visions' in this instance so it's a bit hard to explain, but largely I was saying that you might have to do some background reading and experimentation using the foggy outlines of Era/is' method as inspiration. What I would do is PC the zeolite with some lime, filter it reasonably dry and then run it through the PC again with the reed tea.

Adding base in the manner you describe should result in you being able to filter at least some of it out afterwards, especially if you use calcium carbonate. It's also reasonably easy to purchase food grade chalk or lime, at least in some parts of the world. The amount of base which dissolves will depend on the pH of the solution. And I have no clear idea to what extent calcium carbonate will promote the oxidation of the undesired Phragmites components nor what they may be. Some coumarins and flavonoids are sedating, however.

If the undesired components are volatile to an appreciable extent that might be another reason for the drying process removing them. Have you compared prolonged boils with boiling times of a more 'normal' length, and open pot versus covered pot boils?

And what if the drying process destroys the unwanted substances through reduction with vitamin C in the plant material? Or maybe an enzymatic process? Checking these various hypotheses would require treating the Phragmites material at various different temperatures and conditions to optimise the reduction efficacy or enzymatic action respectively.

 

[dithyramb]

I have never considered boiling lengths as a possible factor in elimination of the block, thank you. When I think about it, it really might be helping as some of the clearer brews were boiled for a very long time, simply because of reducing a large volume of tea from bulk material. There are exceptions, but statistically there is something. The three precious tryptamines (in my eyes) DMT, Bufotenine, and 5-MeO-DMT should not be affected from prolonged boiling times. Though I am ignorant about their precise salt forms from the plant and what possible different related properties they might have.

I never leave the lid on when preparing medicine.

Phragmites has a lot of ascorbic acid and the concentrated tea is very sour with a general intense taste, often also salty and highly sugary in the second half of the season.

I once tried a cold water soak with a lot of vinegar added. İt ended up unusually potent including the block. (I am able to experientially recognize all these elements, trust my word if you can). The taste was an ordeal even for me.

I think prolonged boiling with added base or acid is worth a try.

I will write more in time .

Thanks for lending a hand, downward.

 

[dithyramb]

Phragmites karka is said to be "CNS depressant." I am pretty sure the same or similar molecules responsible for said activity in karka are found in australis and are responsible for the block I am describing. İf we could only pinpoint it/them. Most of the time a tea from fresh material so effectively "turns off" my awareness (in the beginning of the experience), İ cannot fight falling asleep. I don't know any other "sedative" which comes close in power.

Ethnopharmacological investigation of the aerial part of Phragmites karka (Poaceae)

Background: In this ethnopharmacological study, methanolic extract of the aerial plant parts of Phragmites karka (Family: Poaceae) and its petroleum ether and carbon tetrachloride fractions were investigated for bioactivities in Swiss-albino mice, namely, analgesic, central nervous system (CNS)...

www.degruyter.com

As for clay distillation, era/is writes about using juice or dried plant powder. Why wouldn't it be possible to use fresh material?

 

[elchingy97]

So today I've completed a 3-month long research, consisting of:

At the end of each month (~23rd-24th), starting from Februrary (February 24th - first entry), I would go down to the local lake & dig myself some roots, amounting to a total of a bunch - 15cm(6" ) diameter & 15cm(6" ) in length. (approximately). That would amount to around 200-300g. The roots, except for the last entry, were dug from the same place, right next to the water. At the last entry I dug from 2 other spots around the same lake.

I would then proceed to freeze them once for a few hours (immediatelly after returning), then leave them in the closet (for OPSEC reasons) overnight, then the next day proceed to chop them into 1-2cm (1/2"-3/4" ), then add some at a time to a blender + some water, grind them to fine flakes, then put everything to boil.

Total of 3 boils, with a squeeze of vinegar on each, around 6 hours of boiling time. Then I would filter through cloth and add up all the boils together. Then I would boil off most of the liquid till it's about a shotglass of volume. Approaching the ending of the shotglass boiling, I would attend it & spin the liquid around the pot - so not to let it boil up too much.

At the same time I would be having a pot of a overflowing teaspoonful (~5g) of grounded syrian rue. That would be boiling only once (since no point in boiling it more) with nothing else than water. That would be getting into a shotglass size volume as well (as the root boil above).

I would then proceed to pour the 1st liquid into a small plate, the 2nd liquid onto another, then put the two plates in the oven, with an open lid, at the lowest settings (75°C / 167°F), for a few hours.

I would then proceed to scrape off the dried material, each into a seperate cigarette rolling paper, moulding it into a swallowable pill form.

I would then proceed to drink the syrian rue pill, & 45 mins later - the Phragmites Australis root one.

After having this run for a total of 4 times (end of Feb, March, April, May) I can proudly conclude that:

This whole thing is a big pile of sh*t, it doesn't work at all, not even a buzz. Idk from where the Nexus community even got misled into this bullsh*t, but enough is enough, let's stop poluting the internet, & close this research once and for all.

Seriously. With all due respect to everyone, but this was a huge waste of time & energy all for nothing.

Either that or I did smth wrong (unlikely).

Or maybe one ought to dig a fcking trailer-ful of this stuff to even get a buzz. (at which point it would be a lot more wiser to just get some 5g's of MHRB)

I'm out.

 

[dithyramb]

I am just becoming aware of how extremely genetically diverse phragmites australis is. Even very nearby patches, even around the same lake can turn out to be different strains with different chemistry. İt is an extremely difficult matter to come upon the right strain, harvesting in the right time, using the right part... I would assume the same is true of Arundo donax. These plants are not likely to have more use than with exceptional, lucky individuals.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

This whole thing is a big pile of sh*t

FWIW, reports of successful Phragmites extractions have typically referred to collecting rhizomes from deeper water (~6ft) so if you had to dig them up that may be a factor in your lack of success.

Your reference to opsec, along with your general tone, suggests to me that it might be worth waiting for a better time in your life to continue your exploration. We know how variable Phalaris can be, so it should be no surprise to find that this also applies to Phragmites.

 

[trncefigurate_aomn]

A medium to large dried Phragmites blade placed in a glass of ice cold water, for at least a few hours, confers a most wonderful taste and aftertaste to the water!!

I guess while i am here it seems worthwhile to address the continued conceptualization of what Phragmites and Arundo might be for people;
They seem especially good for dieta types of practices and if one is compatible, very small amounts chewed of above ground parts are welcome and as dithyramb has said sometimes also these plants are potent teachers psychologically, they help us to access different feelings that are akin to visiting with a natural doctor, than transcendent visions, but as Terence has described about the modularity of Ayahuasca headspaces, if you contemplate or meditate on more transcendent or philosophical aspects of reality, Phragmites and Arundo can be like having conference with ancient teachers that also understand our own languages and times as of today, because it's a collaboration between two supercomputers' living bodies. (as Aya is a dramatically enhanced experience of that phenomenon)

Each lifeform is a reality supercomputer, or, supercomputationality, which does grow its own true operating system part by part.
Some of these molecules especially with the complete entourage are very compatible with some (but not every) humans' own modular supercomputationality.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

A tincture of Phragmites roots soaked in vodka tastes like sweet whisky - the roots are very sugary and also contain vanillin-like substances. In fact, Phragmites roots are nutritious enough to be used as a famine food so we should once more not be be altogether too surprised at their general lack of overt psychedelic properties.

trncefigurate_aomn - good point about using the above-ground parts in a sincere wortcunning practice (to give it its other name - seeing as you mention languages ).

 

[nen888]

This whole thing is a big pile of sh*t

FWIW, reports of successful Phragmites extractions have typically referred to collecting rhizomes from deeper water (~6ft) so if you had to dig them up that may be a factor in your lack of success.

Your reference to opsec, along with your general tone, suggests to me that it might be worth waiting for a better time in your life to continue your exploration. We know how variable Phalaris can be, so it should be no surprise to find that this also applies to Phragmites.

indeed not a success laden attitude..
This brings a couple of key basic points on the topic up. As the thread OP said there have been previous threads on Phragmites...with reported successes in the 90s at 0.2%, and failures - some key things are ..

ID - without the confirmed flower head you can't be sure it's Phragmites, there are things which, especially not in flower, can be mistaken for it (and have no alkaloids) which grow in similar habits..
Race/sub type - while Phragmites is generally classified as a single universal species, some botanists have suggested there are a few sub types depending on which continent (Asia, Oceana, Europe) and which have themselves then been taken to other parts of the world...not all may be positive for alkaloids
Test - if not 100% sure of the ID (flower head), then i don't recommend anyone orally ingest a random reed or plant without first running a test extraction to see the results..and if unsure, don't..
and even plants which do contain the desired alkaloids can apparently not work for the novice in an maoi oral preparation

while there are some pioneers of oral ingestion here at the nexus, really they are very experienced in plant ID, the variables, risks and parameters..and they are used to experiments that don't work..that's experimentation, it doesn't make you give up...

we should be grateful, I think, that people, over the millenia, have experimented like this on our behalf..

 

[nen888]

dithyramb wrote:

İf the blocking element can be eliminated with a certain technique, then possibly fresh material can be used and it will not have to go through potency loss. The first thing that comes to my mind is, how about trying to add a base, as a lot of substances seem to oxidize in higher pH... What would you recommend trying? Please help me (us) out here.

..good info from downwardsfromzero, but to add - i think if you're dealing with a plant high in sugars in fresh material, i would suggest first acidifying (rendering greater solubility of the alkaloids) then applying prolonged 'curandero-esque' caramelization in reduction of the solution..the sugars may create a barrier..both physical and perhaps mentally, a kind of shield
..from a single early 90s experience i thought phragmites was surprisingly calm like an ocean...or perhaps like a quiet marsh...

 

[dithyramb]

I know we are all here for the sweet spice, but here are some other interesting compounds in phragmites.

Study 1:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14786419.2021.1888291?casa_token=Gy0HHFo3fd8AAAAA%3AlkoglBWtyWzh8O-L6WYtPrUA4gCRurDG_irx2bJPzxMF-5LhG3WtknrkgYIIR0p5UHZK1-6UjkHt

N-p-Coumaroyl serotonin:

N-(p-Coumaroyl) Serotonin is a polyphenol isolated from the seeds of safflower and has antioxidative, anti-atherogenic and anti-inflammatory properties. N-(p-Coumaroyl) Serotonin inhibits PDGF-induced on phosphorylation of PDGF receptor and Ca2+ release from sarcoplasmic reticulum[1]. N-(p-Coumaroyl) Serotonin ameliorates atherosclerosis and distensibility of the aortic wall in vivo and is usually used for the atherosclerosis research[2]

(N-(p-Coumaroyl) Serotonin | Anti-Atherogenic Agent | MedChemExpress)

N-p-coumaroyl-tryptamine:

N-(p-Coumaryol) tryptamine (CT), a phenolic amide, has been reported to exhibit anti-oxidant and anti-inflammatory activities.

(N-(p-Coumaryol)-Tryptamine Suppresses the Activation of JNK/c-Jun Signaling Pathway in LPS-Challenged RAW264.7 Cells)

----------------------------

Study 2:

Studies on the Indoles in the Common Reed -II. Changes of Indole Compounds During the Growth of Sprouts- -Applied Biological Chemistry | Korea Science

갈대(Phragmites communis Trin) 유아(幼芽)를 <TEX>$27^{\circ}C$</TEX>의 암소에서 110시간 동안 사경(砂耕) 배양(培養)하였다. 유아(幼芽)가 자라는 동안 일정(一定)한 시간마다 시료(試料)를 채취하여 methanol로 처리(處理)하여 그 추출물(抽出物)에 대하여 thin layer chromatography를 실시(實施)하였다. 그 결과 배양(培養)하지 않은 유아(幼芽)에서는 indole화합물(化合物) 중에서 serotonin, tryptophan, tryptamine이...

koreascience.kr

Tryptophan, Serotonin, N-methyl-serotonin, bufotenine, tryptamine, and... DMT.

Tryptophan is noted for it's health benefits but I am not sure how much gets dissolved in water

N-methyl-serotonin:

The compound binds to several serotonin receptors, including the 5-HT7 and 5-HT1A receptors, with high affinity (IC50 ≤ 2 nM) and selectivity, and displays agonist activity; besides its direct interaction with the serotonin receptors, N-methylserotonin also acts as a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor.[1]

(Wikipedia).

--------------

Study 3:

Biological Activity of Protein Constituents and Alkaloids from the Plant Phragmites communis - Chemistry of Natural Compounds

link.springer.com

The amino-acid compositions of all organs of P. communis (aerial part, fruit, roots) contained all essential amino acids, i.e., threonine, valine, methionine, isoleucine, leucine, phenylalanine, lysine, and histidine. The amino-acid compositions were also balanced in non-essential amino acids. The amino-acid composition of protein from the aerial part of reed grass was dominated by cysteine, alanine, isoleucine, and leucine; fruit (panicles), tyrosine, valine, isoleucine, and leucine; roots, glycine, cysteine, alanine, and leucine. A comparatively high content of total amino acids was determined in proteins of reed grass panicles.

Apparently these amino acids are mostly water soluble.

 

[Volshebnik]

I got uv lamp and started playing with it. Common reed flowers which I harvested yesterday or day before had little greenish fluorescence. Check out this site Phragmites australis - Common Reed it mentions Succinyl in small amount in flowers. Check that out and it's muscle relaxant.

Take just a little bit of flower and roll it with tobacco. Smoke whole cigarette. In few minutes my vision is a bit different but nothing really noticable and I feel relaxed. lay down in darkness and close my eyes. Some internal images but not much, very irregular and very fast come and go.

Tea from flowers, stalks and leaves glows a bit under uv. This is how dmt glows right?

 

[modern]

Harmalas and some beta-carbolines also do this. Imagine common reed being a single plant ayahuasca substitute.

 

[Transform]

Harmalas and some beta-carbolines also do this. Imagine common reed being a single plant ayahuasca substitute.

Loads of stuff can glow like this, not just indoles. Still, there's way more than a fair chance it's indoles in this instance.

Incidentally, penetration depth of the glow correlates more or less inversely with fluorescer concentration, with a ceiling effect where there can be no further difference once all the UV gets absorbed in the surface layer. I use this for guesstimating the amount of harmalas remaining in an extraction.

 

[trncefigurate_aomn]

A tincture of Phragmites roots soaked in vodka tastes like sweet whisky - the roots are very sugary and also contain vanillin-like substances. In fact, Phragmites roots are nutritious enough to be used as a famine food so we should once more not be be altogether too surprised at their general lack of overt psychedelic properties.

trncefigurate_aomn - good point about using the above-ground parts in a sincere wortcunning practice (to give it its other name - seeing as you mention languages ).

recently i have some very dry large parts of Phragmites leaves, dried from a few reeds gathered when green ( in 2020 ), placed together in a usually closed small jar, and an incredible, fresh aroma is available when breathing the air from this jar now.

 

[dithyramb]

Phragmites leaves have tetrahydroharmine, cuscohygrine, n-methyl-cytisine, vasicinol, withanamide C, scopoletin, and other specified compounds according to this research paper. No mention of gramine, hordenine, or psychedelic tryptamines.

That's a lot to digest.

Tetrahydroharmine? Could this be why I always felt phragmites leaves to be special and precious even when not providing tryptamines?

Cuscohygrine. An alkaloid from coca leaves. İs this what gives me special focus and stimulation during the experience and in the afterglow?

N-methyl-cytisine. I am somewhat familiar with cytisine and n-methyl-cytisine from Spartium junceum and I appreciate the "light," positivity and euphoria I get from that plant.

The paper gives brief information on the pharmacological/medicinal effects of all of the phytochemicals found.

Such a high quantity and variety of biologically active compounds is hard for me to wrap my head around and makes me ponder about the quality of the paper. İf anybody would like to make educated comments, be my guest.