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Pictorial Guide to Caapi Vine Alkaloid Extraction

Migrated topic.
So, I got my vine. Young red. I have just a couple questions.

Has anyone done this with red vine?

I have no fumaric acid. Is acetic the best 2nd choice, or is there a better option? Does anyone know? I need to order some fumaric acid for many reasons, but haven't gotten around to it yet.

Would filtering with a buchner filter and vacuum work? Any idea of the consistency of the precipitate? I have a feeling it won't work, and decanting is fine, but I just thought I'd check.

This will be a collaboration with a friend. I plan on documenting the process and posting a pictorial.

I can't wait!
 
Mister_Niles said:
So, I got my vine. Young red. I have just a couple questions.

Has anyone done this with red vine?

I have no fumaric acid. Is acetic the best 2nd choice, or is there a better option? Does anyone know? I need to order some fumaric acid for many reasons, but haven't gotten around to it yet.

Would filtering with a buchner filter and vacuum work? Any idea of the consistency of the precipitate? I have a feeling it won't work, and decanting is fine, but I just thought I'd check.

This will be a collaboration with a friend. I plan on documenting the process and posting a pictorial.

I can't wait!
Click to expand...
I’ve used black and yellow vine, and both yielded good results. I think others have used red and got good results. Vinegar works just as well as fumaric acid in my experience.

You could try filtering and report your results. It certainly would be faster than decanting, especially with a vacuum. You also wouldn’t need to do as many rinses (could probably rinse right in the filter).
 
gibran2 said:
Mister_Niles said:
So, I got my vine. Young red. I have just a couple questions.

Has anyone done this with red vine?

I have no fumaric acid. Is acetic the best 2nd choice, or is there a better option? Does anyone know? I need to order some fumaric acid for many reasons, but haven't gotten around to it yet.

Would filtering with a buchner filter and vacuum work? Any idea of the consistency of the precipitate? I have a feeling it won't work, and decanting is fine, but I just thought I'd check.

This will be a collaboration with a friend. I plan on documenting the process and posting a pictorial.

I can't wait!
Click to expand...
I’ve used black and yellow vine, and both yielded good results. I think others have used red and got good results. Vinegar works just as well as fumaric acid in my experience.

You could try filtering and report your results. It certainly would be faster than decanting, especially with a vacuum. You also wouldn’t need to do as many rinses (could probably rinse right in the filter).
Click to expand...

I'll definitely try it and report. Good point about washing in the filter. Thanks.
 
Found a few conflicting opinions on potency of leaves vs vine so have just decided to try an extraction on 60g of leaf. Boiled 3 times with water/vinegar last night and reduced down, will try and finish up tonight and will report back with results :)
 
Hey gibran2, nice work, i will be doing this extraction soon, and was wondering if this would be the same thing as a full spectrum extraction of caapi? Because that is what I am looking for. Also, is this finished product what they would call a "caapi copy"? I am a little confused on this whole matter.. And if I get some mature yellow caapi from Heavenly Products, per se, that would contain harmine, and THH correct?


Maybe this is the wrong place for this question, but I didnt want to have to start a new thread when it seems everyone knows this as common information. On the other hand I am a little vague on the subject of harmalas, and have only had bad experiences with the bag of rue seeds I have experimented with.
 
Lodi said:
Hey gibran2, nice work, i will be doing this extraction soon, and was wondering if this would be the same thing as a full spectrum extraction of caapi? Because that is what I am looking for. Also, is this finished product what they would call a "caapi copy"? I am a little confused on this whole matter.. And if I get some mature yellow caapi from Heavenly Products, per se, that would contain harmine, and THH correct?
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Yes, this extraction will yield a full spectrum of caapi alkaloids. Caapi Copy is the name of a commercial product that blends harmine, THH (supposedly), and some harmaline (all extracted from Syrian Rue) in proportions supposedly close to that of true caapi.
 
Well that sounds pretty undesirable I might say.. I would much rather go with your tek, put some spirit and energy into it.
 
Gibran2 : I started your tek last night. I nearly doubled your recipe. I put 113 grams of shredded red vine in a large pot and boiled it in 1000ml of water with 50 ml of vinegar for 30 minutes. I don't know if I was boiling it too hard (a little over medium on an electric stove) but when I poured off the liquid (straining it through a t-shirt to catch large bark partiicles) it was only about 300ml. I figured a lot was still trapped in the vine, so I proceeded to my second and third boils using the same amount of water as the first. Each time I ended up with less than half of what I put in. There was a vent fan running, so maybe that helped with the reduction, I don't know. I just hope I didn't do anything wrong. I did 2 more boils, just to be safe and reduced it all to 1/3 of its original volume (I mean the volume I retrieved). Here is a pic of the resultant liquid after sitting overnight:

P1030687 — Postimages

There is some light colored stuff at the bottom. I wonder if it's just sediment or if there are some harmalas already falling out. My kitten is very curious too, as you can see:

P1030690 — Postimages

I will proceed with the next steps when I get home from work today. Do you have any input so far? Did I mess up by boiling too hard? Should I have had more liquid coming out?

p.s. - I saved my shredded vine just in case.
p.p.s. - why can't I code for images? they showed up as those little blue question marks in my post. maybe I need to use a different photo hosting service.
 
sounds alright so far. if you haven't added base yet then it's probably sediment and you will want to filter it out before you add the base.

your images - if you look at the links - are links to pages, not images, which the script doesn't recognize as images. if you want to show them here with the code-function you will have to get the actual location of the image by for example clicking on the image with the right mouse button and going to view image, then copying the link.
 
Mister_Niles said:
Gibran2 : I started your tek last night. I nearly doubled your recipe. I put 113 grams of shredded red vine in a large pot and boiled it in 1000ml of water with 50 ml of vinegar for 30 minutes. I don't know if I was boiling it too hard (a little over medium on an electric stove) but when I poured off the liquid (straining it through a t-shirt to catch large bark partiicles) it was only about 300ml. I figured a lot was still trapped in the vine, so I proceeded to my second and third boils using the same amount of water as the first. Each time I ended up with less than half of what I put in. There was a vent fan running, so maybe that helped with the reduction, I don't know. I just hope I didn't do anything wrong. I did 2 more boils, just to be safe and reduced it all to 1/3 of its original volume (I mean the volume I retrieved)...
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Yes, I see your kitten is very curious about the sediment. :) Tell your kitten this:

Do NOT remove the sediment. It might contain harmala salts, it might not. One nice thing about this method is that insoluble sediments are removed at a later stage (the re-acidification step) so you don’t have to be concerned with sediment at this point.

Concerning the reduction of volume during the boils – did you boil with the lid on or off? I always boil with the lid on. I think you should be OK regardless. I’ve been doing five 45-minute boils to get most of the alkaloids out, so you might want to boil that vine more – you may still have some alkaloids in the vine. (Good thinking that you kept it!)

Your brew looks just like it should. Let us know how it goes!
 
I can confirm that extracting from caapi leaf doesn't work, well not for me anyway. After adding the naoh solution no alkaloids settled at all.
I have just started an extraction on 100g of vine, i will report back with results :)
 
monty p said:
I can confirm that extracting from caapi leaf doesn't work, well not for me anyway. After adding the naoh solution no alkaloids settled at all.
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That’s interesting and disappointing.

What happened when you added the NaOH? Any color change?
 
Yeah i was a bit disappointed :(

There was colour change for sure, the whole solution went straight to very dark brown/black, i stirred for a minute or so then left to settle for 20mins, no visible settlement occurred.
I then added added a further 50ml of naoh mixture and repeated the stirring/settlement to no avail so ditched the lot and ordered some vine, hope to have better results :)

Gibran, (i know this isn't the place for this question but hey ho . . .) seeing as this is your tek i presume you enjoy oral harmalas and vaped freebase?
I am still not 100% sure i have had a "breakthru", now im not massively hung up on this and i enjoy my experiences very much but reading peoples reports of entities and the like make me feel i am missing out!
I have tried increasing my dose all the way up to 38mg in my GVG, my smoking tek is pretty darn good, thanks to your advice in another post, yet the most i get is heavy OEV and a bit of amnesia.
In your experience, what does oral harmalas add to the journey?
 
monty p said:
...i presume you enjoy oral harmalas and vaped freebase?
I am still not 100% sure i have had a "breakthru", now im not massively hung up on this and i enjoy my experiences very much but reading peoples reports of entities and the like make me feel i am missing out!
I have tried increasing my dose all the way up to 38mg in my GVG, my smoking tek is pretty darn good, thanks to your advice in another post, yet the most i get is heavy OEV and a bit of amnesia.
In your experience, what does oral harmalas add to the journey?
Click to expand...
I think when most people refer to “oral” harmalas, they mean swallowed or eaten harmalas as opposed to sublingual. When vaporizing DMT, I precede it with sublingual harmalas – maybe 15-25mg 30 minutes prior to the DMT. The experience is usually slower, deeper, more intense, and slightly longer. I think a breakthrough is much more likely with sublingual harmalas. I very rarely vaporize DMT without having pre-dosed with sublingual harmalas.

(Also, close your eyes!)
 
Sorry, i did mean sublingual.
That all sounds good to me, i do close my eyes sometimes but find i get even less from the experience coupled with more amnesia but i will take your advice, its all been spot on in the past, thanks!
 
Well... Dang! I based last night and nothing happened. It turned black. Ph 13. I let the brew sit over night, and this morning, I decanted. IThe liquid was so dark, it was hard to see what was on the bottom, but it looked like it was about the same amount of sediment that was there before I added the based water. I added the first wash and I'm letting it settle. I keep telling myself: "It just looks like there's nothing, because I'm using a flat bottom jar. Also, I must ask Gibran2 where he got that impossibly perfect vessel for this kind of procedure." I never got any of the obvious precip like we see in your initial basing step (the one in the pyrex cup).

I've saved everything, just in case I did something wrong. Maybe it's the red vine.
 
Mister_Niles said:
Well... Dang! I based last night and nothing happened. It turned black. Ph 13. I let the brew sit over night, and this morning, I decanted. IThe liquid was so dark, it was hard to see what was on the bottom, but it looked like it was about the same amount of sediment that was there before I added the based water. I added the first wash and I'm letting it settle. I keep telling myself: "It just looks like there's nothing, because I'm using a flat bottom jar. Also, I must ask Gibran2 where he got that impossibly perfect vessel for this kind of procedure." I never got any of the obvious precip like we see in your initial basing step (the one in the pyrex cup).

I've saved everything, just in case I did something wrong. Maybe it's the red vine.
Click to expand...
That sounds unusual. Usually, the solution actually gets a bit lighter – “milky” – after the base is added. This is caused by the alkaloids coming out of solution. The alkaloids don’t always aggregate immediately. Sometimes the solution needs to be stirred, then allowed to sit for a few minutes, stirred, sit, etc. for twenty minutes or so.

But the solution going from brown to black… That’s strange. Was the decanted liquid clear or cloudy? (I realize it’s hard to tell when it’s so dark, but if it was cloudy there might still be alkaloids in suspension.)
 
I also based my solution last night, all seems well. Went milky as described then stirred for a few minuites then large amounts of alkaloids have settled leaving almost black liquid on top. I am using a 1l flat bottom measuring jug with 300ml of solution and the alkaloids are very clearly visible. Wont get a chance to finish process till tomorrow.
 
monty p said:
I also based my solution last night, all seems well. Went milky as described then stirred for a few minuites then large amounts of alkaloids have settled leaving almost black liquid on top. I am using a 1l flat bottom measuring jug with 300ml of solution and the alkaloids are very clearly visible. Wont get a chance to finish process till tomorrow.
Click to expand...
Yes - THAT'S how it's supposed to go. :)
 
That sounds unusual. Usually, the solution actually gets a bit lighter – “milky” – after the base is added. This is caused by the alkaloids coming out of solution. The alkaloids don’t always aggregate immediately. Sometimes the solution needs to be stirred, then allowed to sit for a few minutes, stirred, sit, etc. for twenty minutes or so.

But the solution going from brown to black… That’s strange. Was the decanted liquid clear or cloudy? (I realize it’s hard to tell when it’s so dark, but if it was cloudy there might still be alkaloids in suspension.)
[/quote]

It never got milky or even cloudy. It looked clear. This a.m when I decanted the liquid looked like espresso in my pipette. Dark brown.

I thought I'd reduced it down enough. Way enough. Can I reduce more? I guess it would be dangerous with all that lye in there. I'm hoping this is salvageable. The first wash has been settling for more than an hour, but it's still pretty dark, so I still can't see what's going on. Should I decant again and add another wash? I don't want to dilute too much if it will mess up a possible rectification of my possible failure.
Thanks for your help.
 
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