Poll: If you buy cocaine, you have blood on your hands.

[Voidmatrix]

OK, I'll chime in after all. But i don't think I'm going to answer the poll, although if i were, I'd probably be the only one picking option 3.

I have always thought that solving the "drug problem" is simple. Just simply be real about drug use, and inform people from a young age. Normalize drug use, and recognize it for what it is- an attempt at self medication and it stops being cool so much and becomes more pathetic and sad.

I've always thought a model that provides pharmaceutical grade drugs in safe settings very similar to current methadone clinics, to people presenting with demonstrated addiction (because there always will be some black market or other route to it) would cut the head off the dragon, so to speak, eliminating many social and individual harms caused now in our communities by rampant untreated addiction.

It would also remove a huge portion of the profit motivation for the cartels, although they'd find something else to rape and murder for.

I supported a measure locally that reduced penalties down to the level of a traffic ticket for personal use amounts. Now i think it was short sighted, because while it will reduce the number of marginalized people ending up in the justice system, there are no real provisions to intervene in their addictions in any meaningful way, thereby just allowing them to die invisibly on the street rather than languish in the system.

So, WTF? Yes, when you buy a bag a coke, or dope, or meth, or cartel weed, or MDMA or even cigarettes there are bodies behind it- people died to get it to you, but does the person just trying to be okay in a world that's most definitely not fucking okay have blood on their hands? That's a stretch, I don't want to say you are victim blaming, but maybe you aren't making clear observations. Drug use/ abuse is an incredibly complex subject. Again, i think the only way we can solve it as a problem is to stop looking at it like one and just be real about drugs.

And that's just another short sighted opinion on the matter. It's really hard to look at unemotionally.

Look at Portugal as an example of changing the view on drugs as Null notes. Looking at our species as a whole, "drug" use appears to be in our nature.

One love

 

[Justsomedude]

Making a substance illegal creates a black market for it.

This can be seen with prohibition in the 30's USA.

Apparently they understood that prohibiting alcohol isn't working, but decided to do a "war on drugs" anyway, even with that historical precedent and proof.

So in essence, it's the government's fault people in other countries are exploited for cultivation of a plant and its subsequent processing into a drug.

 

[PedroSanchez]

i think the law makers are to blame. not law enforcement, they are just tools, but the lawmakers, whether making laws directly or by influence. i won't go into too much detail but i have noticed how they claim to be responsible when laws end well, but conveniently blame others when they don't.
most cocaine users have no idea where their cocaine comes from and the implications of every step of its journey. imo it is unfair to put blame on the consumer for the crimes committed directly by others. the consumers are victims too, most of them addicts of some kind, be it looking for an escape on the weekend or fully dependent on crack cocaine.
that said, i'm not sure we would be in better hands if the the cocaine was being produced by government certified drug manufacturers.

 

[jamie]

Im not sure I can agree all drug use is an attempt at self medication.

Some people seem to be making other choices.

A lot of people are just well enough off kids, going off to festivals that cost well over a grand for a weekend with expenses. They go off to hippy raves to spend tons of cash and do drugs all weekend and then go back to a life that does not reflect the typical image of a drug user just ing to self medicate.

It's just rampant drug use often. Not everything people do is driven by some ancient trama.

People can and will do w/e they want. It's gotten a bit old watching a scene of aging ravers continue to go on and on about drug laws if they are victims, while spouting off nonsense about higher moral values and ecology while snorting white powder all weekend.

It is a big part of the transformational festival culture thing and has become just an eyesore. Many of these people are not so hard done by IME and are still coke fiends. Most of the people I know running safe spaces raves(and I know lots) do it. They all act as if they are environmentalists and still buy cocaine.

It's not about coke, it is about the double standard in that culture people walk. It says something.

It is also not heroin, and not near as addictive. I don't think people can really compare a person in the middle of opiate addiction to a person who is using cocaine habitually. Can we really just talk about this as "drug addiction" ? Does that really describe most cocaine use?

 

[dithyramb]

Well everything does have a reason. İt might not be a specific childhood trauma people are trying to medicate, but perhaps escaping a feeling of emptiness/meaninglessness is part of it.

The paradigm of consumerism flows deeper in our veins than we might want to acknowledge. İt is what creates the meaninglessness, and it is what makes people seek all kinds of experiences, in the context of a consumer item.

 

[ommani]

It is a big part of the transformational festival culture thing and has become just an eyesore. Many of these people are not so hard done by IME and are still coke fiends. Most of the people I know running safe spaces raves(and I know lots) do it. They all act as if they are environmentalists and still buy cocaine.

I never made it to any festivals, but definitely had my toes in that scene for a minute, complete with an embarrassingly large collection of expensive, flat-brim hippy hats, and corresponding hat pins. I did make it to numerous Shpongle DJ sets and multiple full-band concerts, have listened to and still listen to a lot of the other music (Plantrae, Moontricks, Dirtwire, Human Experience, etc.) and am familiar with a lot of the "visionary" artists out there, several of whom I've met in person.

Suffice it to say, though I do like a lot of the music, and some of the visual art, I can't pretend to be a part of that scene, or have any desire to look the part anymore. What seems to me like the rampant use of cocaine, MDMA, Ketamine, Nitrous, etc. is obviously not in alignment with the supposed values of healing and wellness (not that some of those drugs, like MDMA and Ketamine, don't have healing potential) and the whole thing just seems to reek of "spiritual bypassing" and lack of integration to me.

What I've discovered from the past 4+ years of working in the field of substance addiction is that there's a lot of people working in the area of mental health/addiction recovery who also have a strong connection to psychedelics, minus all of the wookery (no offense to all the wooks out there, I used to be one of them), and this feels way more like the community of people I feel aligned with, at this point.

It is also not heroin, and not near as addictive. I don't think people can really compare a person in the middle of opiate addiction to a person who is using cocaine habitually. Can we really just talk about this as "drug addiction" ? Does that really describe most cocaine use?

I think there's some truth to that. Obviously, people can and do get addicted to cocaine, and it can wreck people's lives, but drug use doesn't automatically equal drug addiction. From what I've seen, most people seeking treatment for substance disorders are addicted to opiates/opioids, alcohol, benzos, and/or meth, with cocaine addiction being prevalent but less common as the primary issue.

There is also a very small minority of people seeking treatment for cannabis use disorder. That might sound like a joke, but if someone is unable to stop a habit that is having a detrimental effect on their lives, and persists in that habit despite negative consequences, that is the definition of addiction, as I understand it.

Incidentally, most of the people I've seen who struggle with their weed use also struggle with anxiety and/or depression. I think what happens to a lot of people is that they use weed to deal with these issues (as I do myself), but excessive consumption makes the underlying issues worse, causing people to increase their consumption, leading to an increase in mental health issues.

I've experienced something like that in the past, so I can relate. Personally, when it comes to weed, I've taken the harm reduction (versus abstinence) approach of mixing it with hemp and using a vaporizer, as opposed to smoking hash oil and taking bong hits all day like I used to. In effect, the ratio of benefit to harm that I get from weed seems much greater, leading to an increase in the quality of my life and wellbeing.

For the record, after working with hundreds of people seeking drug treatment, I have not met a single person addicted to magic mushrooms :thumb_up:

 

[ShamanisticVibes]

Suffice it to say, though I do like a lot of the music, and some of the visual art, I can't pretend to be a part of that scene, or have any desire to look the part anymore. What seems to me like the rampant use of cocaine, MDMA, Ketamine, Nitrous, etc. is obviously not in alignment with the supposed values of healing and wellness (not that some of those drugs, like MDMA and Ketamine, don't have healing potential) and the whole thing just seems to reek of "spiritual bypassing" and lack of integration to me.

What I've discovered from the past 4+ years of working in the field of substance addiction is that there's a lot of people working in the area of mental health/addiction recovery who also have a strong connection to psychedelics, minus all of the wookery (no offense to all the wooks out there, I used to be one of them), and this feels way more like the community of people I feel aligned with, at this point.

I also used to be a part of the festival scene. Mostly hippie, and some EDM stuff, but mostly hippie. It is exactly as you described. And I have been addicted to opioids AND cocaine, both. Cocaine seems to be more fiendy, but is easier to quell. Opioid is much more casual, but the withdrawals last so long and the want/need is very intense. In these festival/show environments where everyone is basically just getting wasted on a bunch of questionable drugs is what led me into these addictions; as well as some traumas in the past, but again, mainly because I put myself in these places. It does seem a little off to be talking about saving the planet and being more connected with the earth while piling a bunch of immoral drugs in your nose. I like the term "Spiritual Bypassing", and for sure there is a lot of lack of integration going on. A lot of folks do not even know what integration is. I know I didn't for a long time. It's all about the party. And I am just not about partying anymore.

Now that I am cleaned up, I also feel like I do not fit the mold for those situations and putting myself in them just makes me feel awkward. And while I do stay loyal to my resolve, I still do have a love of Cannabis and psychedelics, as well as a lot of natural plant medicines. Both psychoactive, and not. I attribute a large bit of my success to the benefits I get from micro-dosing mushies, and the occasional 1/10 of a tab. I think that we should all grow our own, process our own, and ingest our own.



That being said, I still can't get on board with blood being on the hands of the drug user. There is just too much red tape to unpack there to make it sound at all like a legitimate argument for that notion.

 

[null24]

Im not sure I can agree all drug use is an attempt at self medication.

Some people seem to be making other choices.

There are two reasons people do drugs: 1) to make good things better, and 2) to make shite things bearable.

It is also not heroin, and not near as addictive. I don't think people can really compare a person in the middle of opiate addiction to a person who is using cocaine habitually. Can we really just talk about this as "drug addiction" ? Does that really describe most cocaine use?

No, but honestly *most* heroin users are not addicted, or so they say. They don't have crack up there?

 

[jamie]

Im not sure I can agree all drug use is an attempt at self medication.

Some people seem to be making other choices.

There are two reasons people do drugs: 1) to make good things better, and 2) to make shite things bearable.

It is also not heroin, and not near as addictive. I don't think people can really compare a person in the middle of opiate addiction to a person who is using cocaine habitually. Can we really just talk about this as "drug addiction" ? Does that really describe most cocaine use?

No, but honestly *most* heroin users are not addicted, or so they say. They don't have crack up there?

I think most people here can understand that drug use is a complex issue, and making blanket statements like there are only two reasons people do drugs sounds like more of an emotionally charged position that one of logic. People also do drugs to experiment. It is normal to be curious. I dont't know what else say to you unless you can provide some actual data to support your claim, until then it is just a generalization and personal opinion. I get that this is a factor in drug use, but to say these are the only factors is your claim and you should have to provide evidence.

Crack cocaine is just freebase cocaine. Your point? It does not suddenly make the drug present itself with a higher rate of physical addiction or withdrawl near that of opiates, benzos or alcohol.

What is your point? That every instance of drug use implies some person in a shitty state trying to self medicate? Prove it.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Im not sure I can agree all drug use is an attempt at self medication.

Some people seem to be making other choices.

There are two reasons people do drugs: 1) to make good things better, and 2) to make shite things bearable.

It is also not heroin, and not near as addictive. I don't think people can really compare a person in the middle of opiate addiction to a person who is using cocaine habitually. Can we really just talk about this as "drug addiction" ? Does that really describe most cocaine use?

No, but honestly *most* heroin users are not addicted, or so they say. They don't have crack up there?

I think most people here can understand that drug use is a complex issue, and making blanket statements like there are only two reasons people do drugs sounds like more of an emotionally charged position that one of logic. People also do drugs to experiment. It is normal to be curious. I dont't know what else say to you unless you can provide some actual data to support your claim, until then it is just a generalization and personal opinion. I get that this is a factor in drug use, but to say these are the only factors is your claim and you should have to provide evidence.

Crack cocaine is just freebase cocaine. Your point? It does not suddenly make the drug present itself with a higher rate of physical addiction or withdrawl near that of opiates, benzos or alcohol.

What is your point? That every instance of drug use implies some person in a shitty state trying to self medicate? Prove it.

If I may, while I do feel there are more that two factors in regards to the reasons for drug use, I do think that habitual use can lead to a psychological disfunction wherein one starts using the drug to keep feeling as good as they do when they're on the drug, unable on not wanting to feel as they do in their normal pragmatic lives. In that sense, habitual use can become self-medicating.

About a decade ago, in college, I had a pretty bad cocaine habit. I'd wake up in the morning, take two lines. Eat, take a couple lines, smoke a cigarette. Break in class, take a couple lines, smoke a cigarette. Go to the restroom during class, take two bumps. Just before bed, take two lines. Do it again the next day. When I decided to kick it, things were pretty rough; cold sweats, high irritability, vomiting, trouble eating, sleeplessness, and some body pains. I don't think it compares to heroine addiction much, but that's not my point. Only that it a tough experience, and possible. My habitual use (first for partying, then for get togethers, then for reading and studying, then just because) transformed into something else.

So, it's a complex issue and a transforming one. :Love:

One love

 

[null24]

Im not sure I can agree all drug use is an attempt at self medication.

Some people seem to be making other choices.

There are two reasons people do drugs: 1) to make good things better, and 2) to make shite things bearable.

It is also not heroin, and not near as addictive. I don't think people can really compare a person in the middle of opiate addiction to a person who is using cocaine habitually. Can we really just talk about this as "drug addiction" ? Does that really describe most cocaine use?

No, but honestly *most* heroin users are not addicted, or so they say. They don't have crack up there?

I think most people here can understand that drug use is a complex issue, and making blanket statements like there are only two reasons people do drugs sounds like more of an emotionally charged position that one of logic. People also do drugs to experiment. It is normal to be curious. I dont't know what else say to you unless you can provide some actual data to support your claim, until then it is just a generalization and personal opinion. I get that this is a factor in drug use, but to say these are the only factors is your claim and you should have to provide evidence.

Crack cocaine is just freebase cocaine. Your point? It does not suddenly make the drug present itself with a higher rate of physical addiction or withdrawl near that of opiates, benzos or alcohol.

What is your point? That every instance of drug use implies some person in a shitty state trying to self medicate? Prove it.

Well, your response seems emotionally charged as well, what is your point with that other than to try to make me feel bad?:? Lame.

OKAY, so 3 reasons, maybe. And the third pretty much qualifies as a way to make good things better. I am not going to insult your intelligence the way you insulted mine and assume you cannot understand that.

No, I do not have some nice peer reviewed medical journal I can shoot you a link to and say "see!". What I do have is 40+ years of life experience and observation in the lifestyle of a drug user, 5 years working with addicts in recovery, 7 in my recovery, 25 using heroin and engaging in that lifestyle, 15 on MAT, 100s of dead friends, couple years locked, and dozens of incarcerated friends, 1,000,000 dollars spent, etc etc etc. Must I go on? Do you need more credential that I know wtf I am talking about? My statement is an observation, not a emotional judgement. I do not understand your resistance. Some people just cannot seem to grasp that a drug-use lifestyle can be anything but fun and ponies. It's like I just called your mother an ugly whore by your defensive response.

Do you really think I am dumb enough to not know what crack is? I used to make plenty of it, I know what it is, but thanks anyway. I have never blamed a drug for its consequences, I am somewhat offended by you intimating that that is what I am saying and don't know how you got that. It is a person's relationship that causes problems, apparently I need to say again. Neither did I say it has higher abuse potential, WTF? But in your experience, how many crack users can you count that are happy functional people? Truly, I mean. Ever seen a crack or meth user in detox? I am guessing no.

I am on a drug forum, Jamie, right? Do you think all my previous posts were a set up to start talking crap about drugs? Jesus H Fing Christ, I have asked you directly for manufacturing advice.... Where do you get the idea that my view is : "every instance of drug use implies some person in a shitty state trying to self medicate?" You have just contradicted yourself after quoting me it seems for the sole purpose of cutting me down. See my reason #1. WTF man? :thumb_dow

If you want to shame me for having emotions, I can't type the response I want to in this forum. And don't you dare tell me how to feel about this. My emotions and suffering is what drives me. Most came from what I have experienced in the drug wars. It is what compells me to stave the suffering in the people I work with, and be of service to them. I know your city has been ravaged by drugs, maybe not as bad as mine, but it makes me wonder just how far up on the proverbial hill you live. Because I live in the trenches, and it sucks down here. People need help here.

You have really let me down with your response.

 

[jamie]

A lot of people are just well enough off kids, going off to festivals that cost well over a grand for a weekend with expenses. They go off to hippy raves to spend tons of cash and do drugs all weekend and then go back to a life that does not reflect the typical image of a drug user just ing to self medicate.

I think you have brought some issues to this discussion that I do not feel I did. I was not talking about the downtown eastside of Vancouver. I thought I made that clear in my earlier posts.

I never suggested crack users are happy or functional. I will state again that I feel drug use in general is more complicated than that. The topic of the thread is more focussed from a number of angles.

I am not here in this thread to argue over generalizations of the worse case scenarios, and I dont feel the need to justify where I live to you to have an opinion.

 

[Bill Cipher]

Crack cocaine is just freebase cocaine. Your point? It does not suddenly make the drug present itself with a higher rate of physical addiction or withdrawl near that of opiates, benzos or alcohol.

Um, I'm guessing you've never smoked crack...

 

[Bill Cipher]

If you want to shame me for having emotions, I can't type the response I want to in this forum.

You can.

Let it rip!

 

[ShamanisticVibes]

If you want to shame me for having emotions, I can't type the response I want to in this forum.

You can.

Let it rip!

You can do iiiiittt!


Lol, anyone who says crack is not more addictive that cocaine is a fool

 

[null24]

If you want to shame me for having emotions, I can't type the response I want to in this forum.

You can.

Let it rip!

You know what it is, but I got a couple minutes of sleep and am not quite as pissed off as I was last night and am trying to stay centered in kindness. Yyyyeah...:?
Love ya, Bill.:twisted:

I think you have brought some issues to this discussion that I do not feel I did. I was not talking about the downtown eastside of Vancouver. I thought I made that clear in my earlier posts.

Then again.... ahem.

1. I don't even know what the first sentence means. You call it derailing, I call it conversational evolution.

2. WTF? Then you are reffering to what exactly? Your nice clean ivory tower where everything is peeeeechy keen? Where everyone affords the drugs they are "experimenting" with and there is no need for harm redux because why, we are just dancing? This shit is everywhere Jamie, and drugs are tearing my community apart. Do you want me to go take a walk around the tent communities and interview some residents on video for you to watch? Do you ever go outside? I seriously doubt PDX is an isolated case. And it doesn't matter what part of town it is, it is there. Again, W.T.F.?

3. I missed that part.

WTVR, Be good to you.:?

 

[dragonrider]

Though one of the reasons for starting this poll was irritation about blatant hypocrisy within the dope-scene, i did not meant it to escalate into a fight.

I think judging people is always a bit tricky. Can we always be sure that we would make better choices than the ones we're judging, if we would be standing in their shoes?

On the other hand, to easily dismiss moral dilemma's as grey areas instead of choices that are either black or white, can also be very problematic.

Such an attitude can easily result in a total lack of care about other people, except when, maybe, it suits us.

When we declare something a morally grey area, we usually rather tend to gravitate towards the darker tones of grey, than towards the lighter tones.

If we declare the use of cocaine, gasoline, big macs, or cheap airline tickets a grey area, we hardly ever use that as a reason to consume less of it. It is usually an excuse to consume more of these goods.

So, passing a moral judgement is problematic, but not passing any judgements at all is not realy any less problematic.

It's all a bit messy, isn't it?

 

[Exitwound]

One thing psychedelics has taught me is, try not to judge.
Peace and love you all

 

[null24]

Pretty sure y'all are refferring to me with the judging stuff, but I have to say that disagreement isn't judging. And yes, while I do try to stay within as us recovery people call it-wise mind- about these things, it's really hard to do, especially when I am presented with utter bullshit about something that has taken so many people and so much away from me personally. What have been called blanket statements made by me are my observations, not my judgements. I think I am eminintly qualified to speak on this subject, perhaps more so than many here, because of my life experience and professional path. I see this shit and it's detruction and suffering it causes every day.

I will apologize for taking this in another direction from the OP, although I do think this is a worthwhile and valuable discussion about a complex and emotional subject, but that's all. I am not sorry and stand by what I said. Peace to all of you- you too Jamie:roll: ,and for Santa's sake be good to you.

 

[dragonrider]

Pretty sure y'all are refferring to me with the judging stuff, but I have to say that disagreement isn't judging. And yes, while I do try to stay within as us recovery people call it-wise mind- about these things, it's really hard to do, especially when I am presented with utter bullshit about something that has taken so many people and so much away from me personally. What have been called blanket statements made by me are my observations, not my judgements. I think I am eminintly qualified to speak on this subject, perhaps more so than many here, because of my life experience and professional path. I see this shit and it's detruction and suffering it causes every day.

I will apologize for taking this in another direction from the OP, although I do think this is a worthwhile and valuable discussion about a complex and emotional subject, but that's all. I am not sorry and stand by what I said. Peace to all of you- you too Jamie:roll: ,and for Santa's sake be good to you.

No, i wasn't referring to you.

I was referring to my own feelings towards this issue. I am just not sure where i stand on issues like this.

Sometimes i judge people, only to realise later on, that my judgement was wrong or too harsh.

But at the same time i realise, that if we would all just shrug and say:"whatever, there is no right or wrong, do as you please", we would ultimately destroy this planet we're living on by all the little choices we make everyday.