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Positronic Ayahuasca brewing
- Thread starter tregar
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shroombee
Rising Star
ava69, thanks for all the great information! The double posting of the same content in different threads is a little hard to follow though. I'm compelled to scan through again to ensure I didn't miss anything. Perhaps just posting in one place and then linking from the other threads.
I have THH and HPBCD arriving shortly to give this a try. Do you now have a preference or recommendation between oral DMT/HPBCD/harmine/THH/Vit-C versus sublingual DMT/HPBCD?
BTW, my favorite photo you posted is the beautiful shaman woman. :thumb_up:
I have THH and HPBCD arriving shortly to give this a try. Do you now have a preference or recommendation between oral DMT/HPBCD/harmine/THH/Vit-C versus sublingual DMT/HPBCD?
BTW, my favorite photo you posted is the beautiful shaman woman. :thumb_up:
shroombee
Rising Star
ava69, thanks for your reply! I will go with your recommendation of 250 mg THH orally followed by DMT complexed to HPBCD. A few questions:
1) I have plenty of experience with mescaline and shrooms, including ludicrous heroic doses. But my only experience with DMT is some 12-15 mg vaping runs with the GVG or e-mesh. I haven't done Ayahuasca yet although I just acquired the caapi and chacruna. Was planning to start low with just caapi (no DMT) per ms_manic_minxx's recommendations. I have freebase DMT extracted from MHRB.
What's your recommendation for the amount of DMT to use for these initial (THH + DMT + HPBCD) trials? I have a trip sitter but I want this to be more in-control and self-guiding. Like a moderate shroom trip.
2) (2-Hydroxypropyl)-Beta-Cyclodextrin is easy to find online and commonly referred to as HPBCD. CAS #128446-35-5 with molecular formula C44H75O36.
Hydroxypropyl-Beta-Cyclodextrin is more difficult to locate with CAS #94035-02-6 with molecular formula C54H102O39.
Sometimes I see the (2-Hydroxpropyl)-BCD (CAS #128446-35-5) referred to as simply "Hydroxypropyl-Beta-Cyclodextrin (HPBCD)", even though it seems it should technically be referred to as (2-Hydroxypropyl)-BCD.
I noticed your container says Hydroxypropyl-Beta-Cyclodextrin, but I don't recognize the CAS #. It says "CODE #410-903"?
Did you specifically seek out the more difficult-to-find Hydroxypropyl-BCD (CAS #94035-02-6) rather than the more commonly available (2-Hydroxypropyl)-BCD (128446-35-5)?
3) Are you aware there are reports of HPBCD causing hearing loss? I'm trying to figure out whether the dosages and method of administration in these studies are relevant to our context.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
1) I have plenty of experience with mescaline and shrooms, including ludicrous heroic doses. But my only experience with DMT is some 12-15 mg vaping runs with the GVG or e-mesh. I haven't done Ayahuasca yet although I just acquired the caapi and chacruna. Was planning to start low with just caapi (no DMT) per ms_manic_minxx's recommendations. I have freebase DMT extracted from MHRB.
What's your recommendation for the amount of DMT to use for these initial (THH + DMT + HPBCD) trials? I have a trip sitter but I want this to be more in-control and self-guiding. Like a moderate shroom trip.
2) (2-Hydroxypropyl)-Beta-Cyclodextrin is easy to find online and commonly referred to as HPBCD. CAS #128446-35-5 with molecular formula C44H75O36.
Hydroxypropyl-Beta-Cyclodextrin is more difficult to locate with CAS #94035-02-6 with molecular formula C54H102O39.
Sometimes I see the (2-Hydroxpropyl)-BCD (CAS #128446-35-5) referred to as simply "Hydroxypropyl-Beta-Cyclodextrin (HPBCD)", even though it seems it should technically be referred to as (2-Hydroxypropyl)-BCD.
I noticed your container says Hydroxypropyl-Beta-Cyclodextrin, but I don't recognize the CAS #. It says "CODE #410-903"?
Did you specifically seek out the more difficult-to-find Hydroxypropyl-BCD (CAS #94035-02-6) rather than the more commonly available (2-Hydroxypropyl)-BCD (128446-35-5)?
3) Are you aware there are reports of HPBCD causing hearing loss? I'm trying to figure out whether the dosages and method of administration in these studies are relevant to our context.
Cyclodextrins and Iatrogenic Hearing Loss: New Drugs with Significant Risk
Cyclodextrins are a family of cyclic oligosaccharides with widespread usage in medicine, industry and basic sciences owing to their ability to solubilize and stabilize guest compounds. In medicine, cyclodextrins primarily act as a complexing vehicle and ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
shroombee
Rising Star
Results of THH plus sublingual HPBCD+DMT trial: It works! :thumb_up:
Late yesterday morning I took 200 mg THH freebase and followed it up 90 minutes later with 40 mg sublingual DMT complexed with HPBCD. Ava69's recommended beginner dosage is 250 mg THH and 60 mg DMT for a Shulgin level 4 experience. I don't have much experience with DMT and I wanted to ensure I stayed grounded, so I went with the 200 mg THH and 40 mg DMT.
I purchased my THH from an online vendor, Liftmode, and the included certificate of analysis says it is 99.9% pure. Given the purity that's another reason why I adjusted the THH down from the recommended 250 mg. BTW, the packaging is very professional. The THH costs $68 for 5 grams with free 2-day shipping in the US. Definitely worth it for me to purchase it rather than making my own.
I prepared a 7:1 ratio of HPBCD to DMT and slipped the dosage under my tongue. As ava69 noted, there is a moderate stinging sensation but not too uncomfortable. The most uncomfortable part of the experience is the unfamiliar drawn out stinging sensation and wondering whether I'm setting myself up for a chemical burn on my tongue or lips. No such need for worry though. After 15 minutes I spit out the saliva and then swished with some lemon juice in water. That's a mistake. Although that stopped the stinging sensation my teeth felt a little rough. I swished with some kefir to make my teeth feel normal again.
Now I felt a little "off" in a familiar psychedelic onset way. No nausea but faintly dizzy and I felt the need to put on some warmer clothes, which is normal for me when taking shrooms. Maybe a tryptamine thing. And shrooms sometimes activate heavier feelings or shadow thoughts. I noticed that part of my mind starting to speak up, encouraged by the DMT. But with the low dose, easy for me to halt and brush aside. :!:
I decided to lie in bed under a couple comforters to stay warm. I put on a sleep mask and some headphones. 8) First choosing some uplifting ecstatic dance music and then switching to Gregorian chant. I don't get much visuals from psychedelics these days, unless the dosage is ludicrous. I needed to keep my eyes closed and drop into a silent mind to bring on some visuals. Some rushes of color but nothing memorable or structured. No psychedelic vignettes either - no stories or insights that many of us seek through these medicines to bring back to our everyday lives.
This dosage of THH and DMT gave me a light Shulgin Level 2 trip - obviously active but I could decide whether to deepen the experience by lying down, closing my eyes, and listening to music. Or I could go about my day feeling slightly inebriated and consciously ignoring the occasional wayward voices or imagery being emitted from my mind.
The effects lasted around 90 minutes. Rather than redose to extend or boost the trip, I felt refreshed and inspired to go about my usual life.
I will next try increased dosage, as well as THH with shrooms or mescaline.
Some comments on technique:
1) Thoroughly mixing the DMT and HPBCD into a gel took 10 drops of very hot water with several minutes stirring and mashing. And it's a little fussy getting the sticky gel off the spoon and mixing tools. Maybe dissolving the DMT and HPBCD in ethyl alcohol, evaporating to leave an integrated powder, then adding the water would be easier? Or perhaps the powder could be placed under the tongue?
2) I split out 20 ml of saliva and a glob of gel after 15 minutes. I wonder whether I absorbed all of the DMT or a lot of it is still in the gel? Perhaps try smaller, more frequent doses to get to the desired trip level? The only disadvantage I see with this suggestion is the additional exposure to the stinging sensation.
3) I tossed and turned all night. Ava69 did mention some difficulties sleeping if he took the THH/DMT too late in the day. My sleep is sensitive to supplements and even though I took the THH around 11am, it may have still affected my sleep. Next time I'll dose earlier in the morning.
Edit: It's also possible the tossing and turning was due to having a little wine late at night, which I only have maybe once or twice per year.
4) To eliminate the stinging, would DMT in salt form work?
Late yesterday morning I took 200 mg THH freebase and followed it up 90 minutes later with 40 mg sublingual DMT complexed with HPBCD. Ava69's recommended beginner dosage is 250 mg THH and 60 mg DMT for a Shulgin level 4 experience. I don't have much experience with DMT and I wanted to ensure I stayed grounded, so I went with the 200 mg THH and 40 mg DMT.
I purchased my THH from an online vendor, Liftmode, and the included certificate of analysis says it is 99.9% pure. Given the purity that's another reason why I adjusted the THH down from the recommended 250 mg. BTW, the packaging is very professional. The THH costs $68 for 5 grams with free 2-day shipping in the US. Definitely worth it for me to purchase it rather than making my own.
I prepared a 7:1 ratio of HPBCD to DMT and slipped the dosage under my tongue. As ava69 noted, there is a moderate stinging sensation but not too uncomfortable. The most uncomfortable part of the experience is the unfamiliar drawn out stinging sensation and wondering whether I'm setting myself up for a chemical burn on my tongue or lips. No such need for worry though. After 15 minutes I spit out the saliva and then swished with some lemon juice in water. That's a mistake. Although that stopped the stinging sensation my teeth felt a little rough. I swished with some kefir to make my teeth feel normal again.
Now I felt a little "off" in a familiar psychedelic onset way. No nausea but faintly dizzy and I felt the need to put on some warmer clothes, which is normal for me when taking shrooms. Maybe a tryptamine thing. And shrooms sometimes activate heavier feelings or shadow thoughts. I noticed that part of my mind starting to speak up, encouraged by the DMT. But with the low dose, easy for me to halt and brush aside. :!:
I decided to lie in bed under a couple comforters to stay warm. I put on a sleep mask and some headphones. 8) First choosing some uplifting ecstatic dance music and then switching to Gregorian chant. I don't get much visuals from psychedelics these days, unless the dosage is ludicrous. I needed to keep my eyes closed and drop into a silent mind to bring on some visuals. Some rushes of color but nothing memorable or structured. No psychedelic vignettes either - no stories or insights that many of us seek through these medicines to bring back to our everyday lives.
This dosage of THH and DMT gave me a light Shulgin Level 2 trip - obviously active but I could decide whether to deepen the experience by lying down, closing my eyes, and listening to music. Or I could go about my day feeling slightly inebriated and consciously ignoring the occasional wayward voices or imagery being emitted from my mind.
The effects lasted around 90 minutes. Rather than redose to extend or boost the trip, I felt refreshed and inspired to go about my usual life.
I will next try increased dosage, as well as THH with shrooms or mescaline.
Some comments on technique:
1) Thoroughly mixing the DMT and HPBCD into a gel took 10 drops of very hot water with several minutes stirring and mashing. And it's a little fussy getting the sticky gel off the spoon and mixing tools. Maybe dissolving the DMT and HPBCD in ethyl alcohol, evaporating to leave an integrated powder, then adding the water would be easier? Or perhaps the powder could be placed under the tongue?
2) I split out 20 ml of saliva and a glob of gel after 15 minutes. I wonder whether I absorbed all of the DMT or a lot of it is still in the gel? Perhaps try smaller, more frequent doses to get to the desired trip level? The only disadvantage I see with this suggestion is the additional exposure to the stinging sensation.
3) I tossed and turned all night. Ava69 did mention some difficulties sleeping if he took the THH/DMT too late in the day. My sleep is sensitive to supplements and even though I took the THH around 11am, it may have still affected my sleep. Next time I'll dose earlier in the morning.
Edit: It's also possible the tossing and turning was due to having a little wine late at night, which I only have maybe once or twice per year.
4) To eliminate the stinging, would DMT in salt form work?
shroombee
Rising Star
I used this technique to get most of the complex off the spoon. Thought it was a little awkward and perhaps this part of the process could be improved.ava69 said:
Hmmmm... I definitely noticed a blob of gel in the saliva when I spit it out. I'll see if I can get all the gel to dissolve next time.
My lips and tongue were still stinging after spitting out the saliva/gel. That might bother me on a more intense trip. Are you thinking there's some residual DMT that gets absorbed by now swishing after spitting?
Thanks Ava for reporting on your discoveries!
I have not been able to read all your writings thoroughly so I apologize in advance if the answers to my questions are already written.
If I understand right, you say that THH is unique in many ways, the only harmala with "serotonin blocking" and tryptamine like effect? And you say it has a feminine energy?
What else do we know about THH? Is it true that it is the least stable of all the harmalas? For example could it be that fresh caapi has much higher THH content than dried, and that this is the reason for the much higher THH to harmine ratios in traditional ayahuasca brews compared to vine (I am assuming that all analysis on vine has been done on dried material, and never on fresh) (It seems the long acidic boil - without adding reducing metal - conversion theory has never been proven)?
You have reported that adding harmine to the HPBCD DMT complexation caused a hindrance to the effect. Have you ever tried adding THH to the complexation rather than taking it beforehand? Could it be that THH does not bring this hindrance?
Thanks again for the info and inspiration!
I have not been able to read all your writings thoroughly so I apologize in advance if the answers to my questions are already written.
If I understand right, you say that THH is unique in many ways, the only harmala with "serotonin blocking" and tryptamine like effect? And you say it has a feminine energy?
What else do we know about THH? Is it true that it is the least stable of all the harmalas? For example could it be that fresh caapi has much higher THH content than dried, and that this is the reason for the much higher THH to harmine ratios in traditional ayahuasca brews compared to vine (I am assuming that all analysis on vine has been done on dried material, and never on fresh) (It seems the long acidic boil - without adding reducing metal - conversion theory has never been proven)?
You have reported that adding harmine to the HPBCD DMT complexation caused a hindrance to the effect. Have you ever tried adding THH to the complexation rather than taking it beforehand? Could it be that THH does not bring this hindrance?
Thanks again for the info and inspiration!
Thank you very much Ava, I think I know you too and have been appreciating the info you have been sharing.
So much is waiting to be discovered, right around the corner, but still it's not easy.
Do you think natural saccharides in chacruna or caapi might be playing a similar role to HPBCD?
Here's a data point: my attempts for years at brewing rue and various light plants together never completely succeeded as did drinking them separately, or as did single alloyed medicine ayahuasca (with caapi). Caapi is sweet, rue is not...
So do you guys think that certain natural (poly)saccharides in certain additive plants in the brew could support alkaloid absorption? Do DMT and possibly other actives get complexated with polysaccharides by simply boiling all the plants (including plants with polysaccharides) together? Any clues?
Thank you
So much is waiting to be discovered, right around the corner, but still it's not easy.
Do you think natural saccharides in chacruna or caapi might be playing a similar role to HPBCD?
Here's a data point: my attempts for years at brewing rue and various light plants together never completely succeeded as did drinking them separately, or as did single alloyed medicine ayahuasca (with caapi). Caapi is sweet, rue is not...
So do you guys think that certain natural (poly)saccharides in certain additive plants in the brew could support alkaloid absorption? Do DMT and possibly other actives get complexated with polysaccharides by simply boiling all the plants (including plants with polysaccharides) together? Any clues?
Thank you
downwardsfromzero
Boundary condition
Well, it is interesting to note that one of the ways of kicking an ayahuasca/anahuasca experience into action is by eating a piece of (polysaccharide-rich) bread. Maybe there's more to that than simply stimulating release of the stomach contents into the small intestine, maybe not. It is also unclear what role oils and fats may play in the process, that is to say better results have been reported when the bread was buttered or when a buttery croissant was used (presumably for the luxury experiencedithyramb said:
)
And what about mushrooms stored in honey..? Could it be that the honey allows for better delivery and thus stronger experiences of the mushrooms? My rue + mushroom honey experiences have always been amazingly strong...