Psychedelics Do Not Cause Mental Illness?

[NativeSpirit]

Hey everybody

I find it likely that you guys have recently read the new study about
Pyschedelics not causing mental health problems.

In that study they state that there is no sign between the use of
psychedelics and mental health problems, in fact they could improve it.
But i know this doesnt mean that you should pop acid every morning and eat
shrooms through out the day. The most important thing is to know what you
are doing, and that you respect the medicine and take it with clear intent
(not just 2 get fuckd up). And never ever abuse it. But if used respectfully
and moderately it can do wonders for your life.

"We know categorically that psychedelics taken in a controlled clinical environment with appropriate support almost certainly never lead to any recurring or enduring mental health problems," Dr. Bolstridge said.

This is what i find weird. Ever since i started researching
psychedelics, everywhere i searched let it be: Erowid, Dmt-Nexus,
Mycotopia, Wikipedia or whatever. I always read that people
with depression or a history of mental ilnesses should not take
psychedelics. That psychedelics would make the depression worse
and could make underlying mental problems pop up. Everyone goes
around saying this like its a fact. Therefore there is no validated
data to back up these claims. It's like its a fake idea imprinted
in their minds and they go on spreading it.

If there's some legit research about this please let me know ??


Do everything in moderation.


Love & Peace, NativeSpirit :d

 

[universecannon]

While i think psychedelics can be incredibly useful for depression and other mental illnesses, it also seems true that they are capable of bringing underlying/dormant mental conditions to the surface - especially in a less than ideal set/setting and when used in combination with other substances. Its a very rare thing but not taking this into account is perhaps one limitation of the study.

 

[NativeSpirit]

I do agree with you on this universecannon. When people use these substances without knowing anything about them or how to use them it can cause various mental health problems, whether they have them underlying or not. But the thing i find annoying is that people go around saying this like its a fact, and no research has even proved this. So one cannot know how this works. But the key for everyone is to use them responsibly, moderately and safely.

 

[The Neural]

Everyone goes around saying this like its a fact [...that psychedelics may cause mental disorders...] Therefore there is no validated data to back up these claims. It's like its a fake idea imprinted in their minds and they go on spreading it.

You are saying that "people" say that without any studies to back it up.

people go around saying this like its a fact, and no research has even proved this. So one cannot know how this works. But the key for everyone is to use them responsibly, moderately and safely.

No research has ever proved this. <--- is this spreading a fake idea too? Shall we trust you blindly? How did you research this and reached that conclusion? Where did you look? For how long and how? Or was it just the lack of replies (in the same day you posted the OP) that made you rush to "state" such a statement?

P.S. nothing is proven in science. Just tendencies and probabilities. So if the probabilities are higher for an individual who has a family history in a spectrum of mental disorders, then yes, one can state it and spread it as an actual observation, not a "fake idea". Btw, "Erowid, Dmt-Nexus, Mycotopia, Wikipedia or whatever." are not valid places to "research" your question.

P.S.2. Individuals with a family history of psychiatric disorders are automatically excluded from any study under a clinical environment. Did that study's authors claim that none of their participants exhibited any mental problems? Doesn't it make sense?

 

[The Neural]

I can't find a study. Could you possibly share a link? I only reach a book titled "The Psychedelic Renaissance" in which the author mentions studies conducted by David Nutt and how psychedelics need to be re-assessed.

 

[Nathanial.Dread]

I have no idea what you're talking about: I follow psychedelic literature pretty closely and haven't seen any new study that's come out about this.

I also have definitely heard reports of bad experiences causing PTSD in trippers, as well as depression and anxiety, so to claim that psychedelics are totally benign and risk-free is irresponsible. They definitely CAN promote good mental health (they got me out of a terrible chronic depression), but they are not without risks.

The way I look at it is this: if they can change your mental health for the better, they can probably change it for the worse as well. Nothing is a one-way street.

Blessings
~ND

 

[Michal_R]

I can't find a study

I had an impression that NativeSpirit was refering to this study:

Psychedelics and Mental Health: A Population Study

Background The classical serotonergic psychedelics LSD, psilocybin, mescaline are not known to cause brain damage and are regarded as non-addictive. Clinical studies do not suggest that psychedelics cause long-term mental health problems. Psychedelics have been used in the Americas for thousands...

www.plosone.org

 

[universecannon]

I have no idea what you're talking about: I follow psychedelic literature pretty closely and haven't seen any new study that's come out about this.

Really? Its been all over a number of news sites lately....And Micheal_R ^ has the correct link to the study itself.

There has been a few threads on this already (here is one I believe you will find this interesting - Science - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus )

I'm not sure what all the confusion is about. The study found:

21,967 respondents (13.4% weighted) reported lifetime psychedelic use. There were no significant associations between lifetime use of any psychedelics, lifetime use of specific psychedelics (LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, peyote), or past year use of LSD and increased rate of any of the mental health outcomes. Rather, in several cases psychedelic use was associated with lower rate of mental health problems.

to claim that psychedelics are totally benign and risk-free is irresponsible. They definitely CAN promote good mental health (they got me out of a terrible chronic depression), but they are not without risks."

They did not claim this^ anywhere in the study. They claimed that out of a large number of people they found no association between a lifetime of psychedelic use and mental health problems, and that in several cases use was associated with lower rates of mental health problems...Considering what countless of us in the psychedelic community know and have experiences, this is not surprising. (not that there aren't risks)

There are some limitation to the study, perhaps since the group was so large that any outliers will be over shadowed by the bulk of the data. And that those who perhaps had underlying mental issues surface after a psychedelic experience didn't fall into the category of "lifetime use", and thus weren't in the study in the first place.

 

[The Neural]

I'm not sure what all the confusion is about

The confusion is very apparent for two reasons :

1. The thread's title. It's a definitive statement, so it is natural that we expected a "groundbreaking" study of some sort.

2. The OP shot first (e.g. "People spread fake ideas" ) and asked questions later.

The biggest part of the confusion is the way the OP interpreted the "study". After clarification, we can all see the extreme limitations of the survey:

1. Obviously, it's a self report survey. No actual family history of mental illness was investigated, anyone can write anything. No screening, nothing.

2. Samples did not include institutionalized individuals. In my book, those would provide the very much needed data.

3. Even if we take the survey as valid, it's simple correlation of self-report measures. Nothing definitive, nothing we can trust, nothing that can advise us what to do or not to do.

In conclusion, the "mantra" the OP refers to, is erroneous. Noone claims here that using psychedelics will/can lead to mental problems. It's the use of psychedelics by individuals who have a family history of mental illness, have mental illness themselves, or hint that they may suffer from, that has the potential, more than the rest of the population, to trigger episodes or the onset of the illness itself. That "mantra" should be repeated endlessly.

P.S. 2 personal acquaintances of mine who suffer from bipolar disorder, take 1 toke of cannabis and experience a full-fledged manic episode. Again, in my book, that is all the data I need to understand that words of caution are warranted (if not mandatory).

to claim that psychedelics are totally benign and risk-free is irresponsible. They definitely CAN promote good mental health (they got me out of a terrible chronic depression), but they are not without risks."

They did not claim this^ anywhere in the study.

Nathanial referred to the OP's claim, not the survey's :

In that study they state that there is no sign between the use of
psychedelics and mental health problems, in fact they could improve it.

 

[jamie]

I have never seen data to back up the claims about psychs causing mental disorders.

 

[jamie]

"P.S. 2 personal acquaintances of mine who suffer from bipolar disorder, take 1 toke of cannabis and experience a full-fledged manic episode. Again, in my book, that is all the data I need to understand that words of caution are warranted (if not mandatory)."

I know people without bipolar disorder who experience the same thing, and I also know people with bipolar disorder who self medicate with cannabis. Lots of people panic when they smoke cannabis, likely because they are not aquainted enough to control the dose. One hit of cannabis held in for long enough is enough for many people to become overwhelmed by it, myself included. If I took one bong hit right now and held it I would experience anxiety and possibly a panic attack. Smaller doses and I don't.

Lets not confuse the temporary effects of a psychedelic with the long term effects of an actual personality disorder. An example of a person who feels manic when they smoke cannabis is not really an adequate example, unless they continue to feel that way for prolonged periods(days, weeks, months etc) after exposure. If they simply come down after than it seems more likely they were just tripping and it is temporary.

 

[The Neural]

^

An example of a person who feels manic when they smoke cannabis is not really an adequate example

2 personal acquaintances of mine who suffer from bipolar disorder

...

 

[The Neural]

I have never seen data to back up the claims about psychs causing mental disorders.

where did you look?

again, the correct cautionary phrase is : Psychs can trigger mental disorders in individuals with a genetic predisposition/family history. It's stated above. It's a very short thread...

 

[Michal_R]

I have never seen data to back up the claims about psychs causing mental disorders.

where did you look?

Well... we don´t have any data on this - and thats the point. Jamie pointed to what I also realized some time ago: there are actually no data to support a thesis that the use of psychedelics increases the probability of developing a mental disorder.

If you have such data - please share it with us.
Thank you.

 

[The Neural]

Well... we don´t have any data on this - and thats the point. Jamie pointed to what I also realized some time ago: there are actually no data to support a thesis that the use of psychedelics increases the probability of developing a mental disorder.

If you have such data - please share it with us.
Thank you.

Firstly, to have firsthand data that show e.g. "This person, who has a family history of schizophrenia, received this and that substance under a clinical setting, and developed the disorder", is something that will probably never happen. This is because (in case it is not obvious) totally unethical.

So we have to rely on other measures and observations for this claim. Most of them, are data from institutionalized patients who used serotonergic psychedelics. There are numerous studies on clinical journals that report these findings. Of course, some used more substances, other none, and others only serotonergic ones. So you will have all the righteousness of the world to refute this, by saying that "we don't know then that these substances caused the onset".

However, there is a very clear mechanism on e.g. schizophrenia, where the patient requires 5-HT2 blockers (antagonists) to stop his innate hallucinatory episodes. It is very straightforward, that this same person receiving a 5-HT2 agonist (such as all serotonergic psychedelics) will dive into yet another episode. Prolonged activation of 5-HT2 receptors, can easily rewire the circuit to maintain the said disorder.

This is pretty much the gist on the theory behind why someone with a predisposition should not risk taking psychedelics. Noone says "they will cause a mental illness". There is a probability, higher than others. Now, if you feel that the risk is minimal, that's your problem. Trying to completely negate this notion and claiming there are no data is outright irresponsible, especially for other people who you do not know, not know where they come from, what genes they carry etc. It is prudent to have this advice in mind.

If you want to actually research this chain of the literature, please feel free to do it, there are many articles and reviews available on google scholar (if you don't have access to actual journals), I do not have the time to do the research for you.

 

[Aftermath]

Could DMT specifically worsen already-present mental illness?

 

[Nathanial.Dread]

"P.S. 2 personal acquaintances of mine who suffer from bipolar disorder, take 1 toke of cannabis and experience a full-fledged manic episode. Again, in my book, that is all the data I need to understand that words of caution are warranted (if not mandatory)."

I know people without bipolar disorder who experience the same thing, and I also know people with bipolar disorder who self medicate with cannabis. Lots of people panic when they smoke cannabis, likely because they are not aquainted enough to control the dose. One hit of cannabis held in for long enough is enough for many people to become overwhelmed by it, myself included. If I took one bong hit right now and held it I would experience anxiety and possibly a panic attack. Smaller doses and I don't.

Lets not confuse the temporary effects of a psychedelic with the long term effects of an actual personality disorder. An example of a person who feels manic when they smoke cannabis is not really an adequate example, unless they continue to feel that way for prolonged periods(days, weeks, months etc) after exposure. If they simply come down after than it seems more likely they were just tripping and it is temporary.

I know that anecdotal evidence is barely admissible as evidence, but this might be worth something:

The first time a friend of mine tried to smoke cannabis, he had a full-on, borderline psychotic reaction. I was not there at the time, but from the way he tells it, he had a series of intense panic attacks and felt as though he had completely lost control of his thoughts, his identity and his perception of the universe.

He was depressed for several months after the experience, having PTSD-style flashbacks and experiencing severe anxiety about the meaning of the experience. To this day he has never touched another psychoactive (not even alcohol).

I also met a girl at a fire-spinning festival who had been very religious, and then suffered a serious crisis of faith while on psychedelics. She claims that to this day that she cannot believe in God, and that her life is poorer because of it: he is less optimistic, more nihilistic, and way less outgoing. Perhaps another experience would help her, but prescribing psychedlics in that case seemed extremely callous.

So, that is not obviously hard, scientific data about the comparative riskiness of psychoactive, however, that story is enough to convince me that when you decide to shake up your brain chemistry, there is some chance things can go wrong.

The vast majority of psychoactive drugs out there can, on occasion, induce paradoxical reactions (benzodiazapines precipitating anxiety or seizures, for example). Is it impossible to believe that psychedelics are any different? They're just another kind of drug, after all.

Blessings
~ND

 

[Michal_R]

Trying to completely negate this notion and claiming there are no data is outright irresponsible

Well, I think it is irresponsible to present a pretty strong statement about a causal relationship and then refuse to provide a proof (scientific literature?) to support the statement...

... If you want to actually research this chain of the literature, please feel free to do it, there are many articles and reviews available on google scholar (if you don't have access to actual journals), I do not have the time to do the research for you

You don´t have time to support your statements by pointing to allegedly existing literature?

Well, OK... thank you for sharing your personal opinion on the topic.

 

[universecannon]

Well you pretty much repeated a lot of what I already said (study's limitations... psychs can bring out inner problems.. etc), so there is obviously no big disagreement there. And I agree that the thread title is too definitive.

But I should note that LSD bringing out, prolonging, or intensifying a persons underlying schizophrenia is not the same exact thing as LSD being the actual root cause of a persons schizophrenia. So there is a big difference between claiming psychedelics cause mental illness, and claiming that psychedelics can bring out a growing/underlying/dormant/inherited/whatever mental illness in a person. I suspect the latter is much more common than the former, but I also think that given the wide variety of individuals and set/settings both are possible. Its just a very hard area to collect good data for, as you said. So despite all its flaws and criticism I do think this study is a very interesting, if slightly faltering, step in the right direction.

 

[The Traveler]

I've added a question mark in the thread title to reflect the status of our knowledge about this subject.


Kind regards,

The Traveler