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Pure Spice and pure Jungle Spice? Expertese needed.

Migrated topic.
S

SKA

Rising Star
SWIM has made 2 succesfull DMT extractions using a simple yet effective, high yield STB method.

SWIM's 1st DMT extraction from powdered purple pink MHRB was done as follows:
1-Mix MHRB powder with just enough (destilled)water to form a barely liquid mimosa-mud.
2-Premix about 300 gramns of granular Natrium Hydroxide with 1 liter of (destilled)water.
3-Poor Mimosa-mud into 1 liter, small neck bottles (fill about 4/5th of the bottle)
4-Add Lye-water solution to the mimosa-mud in the bottle(This should fill the bottle up about 3-4th: up till the about 10 cm long, narrow bottleneck.
5-Shake well to mix the basified water and the mimosa-solution.
6-Add about 100 ml of Diethyl Ether to the bottle.( This should fill the bottle up to the top) Close bottle very well. Shake rigorously. Leave alone and let the 2 layers separate and settle.
7-Use eyedropper to filter off the top layer of ether and deposit it into a clean glass pot/jar/bowl.
8-Repeat step 6 and 7 six to zeven times each time with 100mls of fresh Diethyl Ether. Collect all Diethyl Ether-pulls into the glass container.
9-Allow to evaporate at roomtemperature. Residue is spice.

The Product:
The residue will be the typical earwax yellow/mahony brown/amber-red-spice. This is incredibly potent; an eyeballed flake in between the size of a needlepin and the size of a small pea (somewhere in between 30 and 50 mg perhaps)
It's character is extremely visual, bright colored, overwhelming, fast paced and somewhat dark/sinister-edged.

SWIM's 2nd DMT experiment got an interresting twist when his friend, with which he decided to do this together, had accidentally bought Petroleum Ether instead of Diethyl Ether. Given that it appeared to evaporate fast and completely SWIM decided to try Petroleum Ether as a substitute for Diethyl ether in the same method he used for his 1st DMT extraction.

The Product:
The curious twist came at the evaporation process. The Petroleum ether evaporated really fast and left behind a residue of the purest, whitest crystaline needles SWIM's ever seen. When he tried evaporising this he noticed it was about 1/3d less potent than the yellow earwax spice of his first extraction. Also he noticed it's Character was much milder, smoother, less visual, less vibrating, less threatening, , less incapacitating, less clear, less immersive and more extatic than the yellow/red DMT of his first extraction.
He noticed that if he took more ( about the size of an average pea ) this would be enough to produce a very immersive, visual, overwhelming psychedelic experience, yet still it's overal character seems to be alot more friendly, smooth, humble/subtile and forgiving than that of the yellow/red waxy DMT of his first extraction.





Conclusion:
Could it be that SWIM and his sloppy friend by accident found a simple and effective way to extract both pure DMT and Dark/Jungle DMT seperately?

SWIM suspects that the yellow DMT that came out of his 1st extraction was DMT mixed with Dark DMT and that the 2nd extraction, using Petroleum Ether instead of Diethyl Ether, pulled only the DMT out of the basified Mimosa solution.
If this is true then there must still be a load of pure Dark DMT-alkaloids left in SWIM's basified mimosa-solutions and he should probably
extract then again with Diethyl ether.

Doesn't that sound like a surprisingly simple method of extracting pure DMT and pure dark DMT seperately from MHRB in 1 go?
First one extracts all one can from one's basic mimosa solutions with Petroleum Ether, yielding incredibly pure DMT crystals only. Then One can proceed by extracting all one can again, from the same, now DMT-less, yet still Dark-DMT rich, this time with Diethyl Ether to obtain pure Dark DMT crystals only.


Just thought SWIM should share this.
 
Sounds good:) Xylene or toluene are what folks more commonly use to extract 'earwax yellow/mahony brown/amber-red-spice'; they have the advantage of being more easily sourced- for most- than diethyl ether and somewhat safer to work with.
 
My swim pulls all he can of the more pure spice with naptha, then goes for pulling the jungle with xylene.
Two very different experiences. White spice is a cleaner, clearer journey. Jungle spice is a wilder and often even more stunningly visual experience. Both are great and sometimes swim prefers one over the other. He uses Jungle when we wants to go deep and wild.
 
mad_banshee said:
My swim pulls all he can of the more pure spice with naptha, then goes for pulling the jungle with xylene.
Two very different experiences. White spice is a cleaner, clearer journey. Jungle spice is a wilder and often even more stunningly visual experience. Both are great and sometimes swim prefers one over the other. He uses Jungle when we wants to go deep and wild.
Click to expand...

burnt has shown pretty conclusively in terms of chemical analysis that even after supposedly 'exhausting' the material with naphtha, what comes out with a xylene pull is still mostly DMT.

not to discredit your experience but placebo/self-suggestion can be in a great part responsible for the differences one experiences, as well as the plant oils in 'jungle' protecting the dmt so being a more effective vaporization and therefore also partly explaining the differences in terms of dosage size and not type.

In any case I dont know how you guys can ever compare dmt trips.... in my experience thats just not possible, they are all so wild, even from the same exact batch of dmt smoking in the same day, one can have completely different experiences! One can be wild, the other mild, one can be colourful, the other monochrome, one can be cartoonish, the other realistic, one can be dark, the other light, one can be funny, the other spiritual, etc etc.... thats dmt for ya :D

I think we could only really know about the effects difference by doing a blind test with a few people, maybe difusing in some inert herb that masks the taste, as well as everybody using some efficient vaporization technique like the vaporgenie, and then really test the product itself.

btw burnt, do you have any info on the psychoactivity of that b-carboline? I tried looking into that but couldnt find anything....
 
burnt has shown pretty conclusively in terms of chemical analysis that even after supposedly 'exhausting' the material with naphtha, what comes out with a xylene pull is still mostly DMT.

not to discredit your experience but placebo/self-suggestion can be in a great part responsible for the differences one experiences, as well as the plant oils in 'jungle' protecting the dmt so being a more effective vaporization and therefore also partly explaining the differences in terms of dosage size and not type.

In any case I dont know how you guys can ever compare dmt trips.... in my experience thats just not possible, they are all so wild, even from the same exact batch of dmt smoking in the same day, one can have completely different experiences! One can be wild, the other mild, one can be colourful, the other monochrome, one can be cartoonish, the other realistic, one can be dark, the other light, one can be funny, the other spiritual, etc etc.... thats dmt for ya :D

I think we could only really know about the effects difference by doing a blind test with a few people, maybe difusing in some inert herb that masks the taste, as well as everybody using some efficient vaporization technique like the vaporgenie, and then really test the product itself.

btw burnt, do you have any info on the psychoactivity of that b-carboline? I tried looking into that but couldnt find anything....
Click to expand...

SWIY and some others seem to not take Jungle spice that serious. Some of SWIY seem to think Jungle spice is just another hoax.
But SWIM can asure SWIY that indeed the impure yellow/amber DMT is indeed alot more potent, ALOT more visual and ALOT more immersive that white, crystaline NN,DMT. This seems to suggest that the yellow impurity is either an alkaloid , more potent and very similair DMT( in terms of effects) OR that this yellow impurity is some kind of extremely potent, instant working MAOI that significantly strengthens and deepens the NN,DMT experience.

Either way SWIM is very certain that the yellow waxyness is very rich in a yet unidentified, very psychoactive chemical.
He will try to pull this out. If SWIY has trouble believing this Jungle DMT SWIM will make 2 pictures; 1 of the NN,DMT and one of the Dark DMT and he will test both substances and report results back into this topic.
 
It has nothing to do with not taking it serious, I take all dmt issues very seriously :D It has to do with not taking things at face value and by my own skeptic nature being careful with making assumptions based on personal experiences which may be biased due to self-suggestion/placebo.

I have tried jungle myself several times, but for the reasons already stated I cannot affirm any difference between that and normal dmt.. notice that this is not the same as saying that there absolutely isnt any difference. Only a significant amount of propper blind testing will tell one way or another.

btw, color is a very poor indicator of alkaloid content. Read here for a bit more on this:


as for the 'yet unidentified alkaloid', you can look here yourself, burnt has done the test as I mentioned:



and as for the experiment you want to do, what will 2 pictures show? That refers back to the colour fallacy. And the personal experiment, that will go back to the subjective bias issue. Unless you do a blind test (i.e. have a friend administer them both at different times in similar conditions to you without knowing which is which, with the masked taste by dissolving it in some herbs, and in an effective vaporization technique such as the vaporgenie), in which case do that several times (and ideally with many people), so that it can have a statistical significance.
 
SWIM has smoked for over 1 year from one pot of yellow waxy DMT. It was incredibly potent. SWIM and quite a number of SWIM's friends had several immersive, extremely visual breakthrough experiences by vaporising miniscule flakes of this yellow wax.

SWIM and 4 of SWIM's friends who had previously broken through on the yellow wax DMT have smoked from SWIM's new, pure, crystaline white DMT harvest.
SPTWU (Some People that Weren't Us..lol) discussed the effects of this new, pure, white DMT and all came to the defenite conclusion that the yellow wax was indeed alot more potent, immersive, visually bright and stunning, overwhelming and darker/more sinister-natured than this pure, white crystal DMT.

SWIM is as positive as he can possibly be that there's no way that the (by 5 people percieved) difference in Intensity/Vividness, Potency and Character between the Yellow DMT and the white, crystal DMT could be Placebo effect.

SWIM reckons SWIY should give it a try might he/she ever decide to perform a STB extraction from MHRB.
Doing it according to the STB method in SWIM's 1st post using Diethyl ether should leave SWIY with the Yellow Wax SWIM believes is a mix of NN,DMT and Jungle DMT.
If SWIY saves some MHRB then SWIY could perform a similair extraction on it, this time however using Petroleum Ether. This should leave SWIY with incredibly pure, slightly off-white NN,DMT crystals.
If SWIY would smoke a similair dose of both extracts in 2 trials spaced minimally 1 hour appart, SWIM is sure SWIY should percieve the defenite difference between the 2 extracts as SWIM mentioned.
 
SKA said:
SWIM has smoked for over 1 year from one pot of yellow waxy DMT. It was incredibly potent. SWIM and quite a number of SWIM's friends had several immersive, extremely visual breakthrough experiences by vaporising miniscule flakes of this yellow wax.

SWIM and 4 of SWIM's friends who had previously broken through on the yellow wax DMT have smoked from SWIM's new, pure, crystaline white DMT harvest.
SPTWU (Some People that Weren't Us..lol) discussed the effects of this new, pure, white DMT and all came to the defenite conclusion that the yellow wax was indeed alot more potent, immersive, visually bright and stunning, overwhelming and darker/more sinister-natured than this pure, white crystal DMT.

SWIM is as positive as he can possibly be that there's no way that the (by 5 people percieved) difference in Intensity/Vividness, Potency and Character between the Yellow DMT and the white, crystal DMT could be Placebo effect.

SWIM reckons SWIY should give it a try might he/she ever decide to perform a STB extraction from MHRB.
Doing it according to the STB method in SWIM's 1st post using Diethyl ether should leave SWIY with the Yellow Wax SWIM believes is a mix of NN,DMT and Jungle DMT.
If SWIY saves some MHRB then SWIY could perform a similair extraction on it, this time however using Petroleum Ether. This should leave SWIY with incredibly pure, slightly off-white NN,DMT crystals.
If SWIY would smoke a similair dose of both extracts in 2 trials spaced minimally 1 hour appart, SWIM is sure SWIY should percieve the defenite difference between the 2 extracts as SWIM mentioned.
Click to expand...

Again, im not discarding your experience and saying there isnt any difference but there's several things that come to mind before supposing there is a difference:

How was the sharing of opinion made between the people ? Is it possible that one's opinion influenced the other's as it was shared between people, for example by the tone of how the question was asked from one person to the other ? The only way to discard this is by making real testing where people try it in separate moments without being with each other, and write down the descriptions and only share once all of the descriptions are written.

Also, what was the method of smoking for all people?

What about other variables that could have influenced, like different time of people's lives (or who knows if you want to complicate the story even further, what about cyclical/metabolic/seasonal-influence differences that would explain constancy between differnet people)

Or what about the fact that you were all much more experienced with the substance now so the experience maybe didnt feel as strong/scary ?

Or what about what I already mentioned about the fact that it can be plant oils helping vaporization be more effective and this changing the strenght, instead of actually being different alkaloids?

Or self suggestion possibly related to the looks and taste of the alkaloids?

These are a few questions that come to mind that I think are important to think about if one wants to make any educated assumption about alkaloidal content and effects.

If we are to think scientifically to have a more generalizable knowledge instead of just some anecdotal reports, we have to really test strategically, isolate variables. Thats why I suggested the blind (or double blind) testing of different people with few days in distance, and several launches from the two batches, and ideally with some kind of standardized questionary with pre-established categories to easily compare (what could they be? we should create one ), and see if theres statistical significance (or not)

If I have this opportunity/time I will try doing this, if I cant get many people at least with myself.
 
Interesting about the potency of the 'yellow' material. SWIM has never analyzed such material. Perhaps its in order.

Or what about what I already mentioned about the fact that it can be plant oils helping vaporization be more effective and this changing the strenght, instead of actually being different alkaloids?
Click to expand...

This could also change uptake in the lungs and other pharmacokinetic changes. Difficult to study thing kind of thing in detail however without measuring blood levels and inhalation / exhalation levels.

btw burnt, do you have any info on the psychoactivity of that b-carboline? I tried looking into that but couldnt find anything....
Click to expand...

Also looked and couldn't find any. SWIM is not 100% certain of structure. Its only based on MS data. What needs to be done is that it needs to be isolated and analyzed by NMR (nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy) and then bioassayed which is a full study in itself.
 
endlessness said:
SKA said:
SWIM has smoked for over 1 year from one pot of yellow waxy DMT. It was incredibly potent. SWIM and quite a number of SWIM's friends had several immersive, extremely visual breakthrough experiences by vaporising miniscule flakes of this yellow wax.

SWIM and 4 of SWIM's friends who had previously broken through on the yellow wax DMT have smoked from SWIM's new, pure, crystaline white DMT harvest.
SPTWU (Some People that Weren't Us..lol) discussed the effects of this new, pure, white DMT and all came to the defenite conclusion that the yellow wax was indeed alot more potent, immersive, visually bright and stunning, overwhelming and darker/more sinister-natured than this pure, white crystal DMT.

SWIM is as positive as he can possibly be that there's no way that the (by 5 people percieved) difference in Intensity/Vividness, Potency and Character between the Yellow DMT and the white, crystal DMT could be Placebo effect.

SWIM reckons SWIY should give it a try might he/she ever decide to perform a STB extraction from MHRB.
Doing it according to the STB method in SWIM's 1st post using Diethyl ether should leave SWIY with the Yellow Wax SWIM believes is a mix of NN,DMT and Jungle DMT.
If SWIY saves some MHRB then SWIY could perform a similair extraction on it, this time however using Petroleum Ether. This should leave SWIY with incredibly pure, slightly off-white NN,DMT crystals.
If SWIY would smoke a similair dose of both extracts in 2 trials spaced minimally 1 hour appart, SWIM is sure SWIY should percieve the defenite difference between the 2 extracts as SWIM mentioned.
Click to expand...

Again, im not discarding your experience and saying there isnt any difference but there's several things that come to mind before supposing there is a difference:

How was the sharing of opinion made between the people ? Is it possible that one's opinion influenced the other's as it was shared between people, for example by the tone of how the question was asked from one person to the other ? The only way to discard this is by making real testing where people try it in separate moments without being with each other, and write down the descriptions and only share once all of the descriptions are written.

Also, what was the method of smoking for all people?

What about other variables that could have influenced, like different time of people's lives (or who knows if you want to complicate the story even further, what about cyclical/metabolic/seasonal-influence differences that would explain constancy between differnet people)

Or what about the fact that you were all much more experienced with the substance now so the experience maybe didnt feel as strong/scary ?

Or what about what I already mentioned about the fact that it can be plant oils helping vaporization be more effective and this changing the strenght, instead of actually being different alkaloids?

Or self suggestion possibly related to the looks and taste of the alkaloids?

These are a few questions that come to mind that I think are important to think about if one wants to make any educated assumption about alkaloidal content and effects.

If we are to think scientifically to have a more generalizable knowledge instead of just some anecdotal reports, we have to really test strategically, isolate variables. Thats why I suggested the blind (or double blind) testing of different people with few days in distance, and several launches from the two batches, and ideally with some kind of standardized questionary with pre-established categories to easily compare (what could they be? we should create one ), and see if theres statistical significance (or not)

If I have this opportunity/time I will try doing this, if I cant get many people at least with myself.
Click to expand...


SWIM is still open to learn the cause of this impure yellow DMT being so much stronger and immersive.
SWIM guesses he'll find out when he extracts the yellow wax from the DMT-less basified MHRB mud-bottles.
Smoking the yellow wax should give the answer to the question of wether the yellow impurity is another, psychoactive alkaloid or not.
 
SWIM is still open to learn the cause of this impure yellow DMT being so much stronger and immersive.
SWIM guesses he'll find out when he extracts the yellow wax from the DMT-less basified MHRB mud-bottles.
Smoking the yellow wax should give the answer to the question of wether the yellow impurity is another, psychoactive alkaloid or not.
Click to expand...

Unless one can confirm chemically that DMT is not there then you cannot draw such conclusions.

Many times extractors on the web claim to know whether or not a plant extract has been exhausted or compounds have been purified. But in many cases no such purity or knowledge of chemical composition can be claimed. SWIM has also observed cases where they are just flat out incorrect.

Things like color and subjective effects are too unreliable.

The reason I point this out is not to critisize your methods but its to make people aware that what they think is going on could be totally wrong. Its more to prevent the spread of myths based on anecdotal evidence. However what you can do to contribute to solving these questions is detail SWIY's methods so that those who have access to equipment or knowledge about how to chemically analyze such preparations can do so.
 
endlessness said:
mad_banshee said:
... placebo/self-suggestion can be in a great part responsible for the differences one experiences...
Click to expand...

It's so interesting reading this thread and seeing the varying responses. You have those who have faith and those who are only interested in cold hard repeatable truths.
Swim has never tried jungle but has always wondered if there would be an increased or different effect. At this point though it would only be further testament to the power of suggestion. You have to assume that in most cases the person imbibing jungle is aware or has been made aware in some way of a superiority to regular spice.
I personally haven't seen any empirical evidence saying that jungle is chemically identical to regular spice in a psychoactive sense but I also haven't looked very hard. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm just saying maybe it's better not to ruin the surprise. I don't want to let the truth get in the way of a good experience.
Even if it were proven to be a placebo effect. Who cares? Is that so insulting? Is it any less valid an experience?

I have a friend who thinks LSD breaks down into more psychoactive compounds over time and therefore gets stronger. I started to tell him why I was pretty sure this wasn't true but then I realized it didn't make a difference one way or another what he thought.
About the only time I try to inform people that I know to be misinformed when it comes to drugs is when I know it to be something that could hurt them. If no harm comes from the persons ignorance then I just keep my mouth shut. Drugs can be very close to a persons heart and people want to believe they know all there is to know about their beloved substance.

As far as the Jungle debate goes I am in the same camp endlessness is in. I am blown away by the variation in effect from a single extraction and would have a hard time pinpointing concrete differences in anything containing DMT.
Click to expand...
 
When SWIM first smoked from his amber/brown DMT he didn't know about jungle spice. It was DMT for all he knew.

Only after a later extraction when he yielded a very pure, off-white crystaline powder (by using Petroleum-ether instead of DiethylEther) he read about jungle spice and came to the conclusion the spice from his first extraction was part jungle.

Now he's not sure anymore. In later batches of the petroleum-ether he no longer yielded the pure offwhite crystals and they were urine yellow instead.

1 thing he can say with certainty is that the Yellow/Amber Reddish brown extract from his first extraction had an incredible strength that SWIM has not yet again been able to reproduce in later extractions.

A flake the size of a needle pin of the red-brown sticky extract would have sent anyone to hyperspace for certainly 10 minutes.

The more pure, white/yellow extracts comming out of the Petroleum ether from later extracts seems to totally lack that quality. SWIM has had DMT extperiences with this extract only much weaker. He has never managed to get breakthroughs anywhere near those he knows from the red/brown extract. In fact it's hard breaking through on at all. Also it seems not to vaporise nearly as efficiently and quickly as the red/brown stcky extract.

SWIM is hoping to find out the way to make spice as vibrant, potent and stunningly immersive as his first red/brown extract again.

Perhaps it could all have been because the batch of Mimosa Hostilis Root Bark SWIM ordered for his first extraction was simply waaaay more potent than the Mimosa he ordered for his later 2 extractions.
 
This swim knows ... beyond any chemical analysis that there is an extreme diffrence in the material pulled with xylene then seperated with naptha... than those pulled with diethyl ether and naptha sep.. .. this swim was the first to write about the yellow wx material being pulled with DE years ago....

perhaps it is a beta carboline like material with only trace amounts of dmt ... but this material is soluble in DE and NOT in naptha.. this alone states conclusively that it is NOT DMT because as we all know dmt is very soluble in naptha... entropymancers write up here on jungle spice quotes alot of swims early day experiments and experiences with this DE pulled and seperated material.. good read... maybe the stuff pulled with xyl or tol is mostly dmt.. but this swim has delved deep into the mysteries of the yellow waxy material ... and can state beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is NOT DMT... thanx and peace !
 
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