Quest for most potent cactus - from seeds with help of pereskiopsis grafting

[pete666]

Pete - I would be interested to see the results of that experiment. Thanks for doing all of this research for the community.

No problem at all fox, this information is very valuable for me as well, so this test is on my list. My theory is that upper part of the cactus of the same year growth is more potent than bottom part (An1cca's findings). But this changes after dormancy, or maybe just due to the lack of direct sun light. Then the bottom parts (from previous years) get more potent. This is a common observation, though I have not seen any test of that yet. Two tests are necessary for validation of this theory.

Send me a PM.

Yup

If you guys will coordinate together and find a way to collaborate, I seriously think you need to talk with the board admins to let us set up a paypal contribution method or something to help you absorb the cost and encourage your efforts-- I can't give much, but I can absolutely give something-- and I think this kind of effort is a benefit to everyone...

Thanks coAsTal. But the main problem is not the money, but rather time. Yes, acquiring the glassware and tools costs something, but then it is much more about time. The more people would join, the more samples we could analyze.

I believe recognizing high quality specimen and sharing it within the community would be worth the effort. Why everyone would have to do it on his own?

Shame the cactus community is so small

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Reporting for duty on the cactus squad. Setting out a standard protocol for cactus analysis in a clearly defined and accessible manner would be the starting point here. And then it is, as already stated, a matter of time.

 

[coAsTal]

pete, I have a suggestion for the group to consider or modify as needed to improve our collective efforts.

I believe we could facilitate the distribution of time-cost effectively by agreeing as a group on an exact method to share in cultivation and beginning community/shared bioassay and/or chemical analysis.

I would expect that the basic requirements would entail isolating and agreeing on a set of fixed variables-- varieties, soil content, lighting, heat, and the like.
Pick a soil combo and everyone uses only that on these plants. Every participant goes in on a 2' x 4 T5 CFL (Sunlight quality os far too variable from one person to the next, so indoor light would be mandatory). Use the same $11 heat pad set on the same cycle as the lighting. I already have most all of these things (or would happily acquire them as determined by the group) to run the experiment the same way as everyone else.

A common template of sorts that each interested participant could use to simply fill in the blanks to allow the most efficient and accurate comparison amongst ourselves.

If there were 20 of us growing a dozen or so carefully-cultivated plants, then after while we'd have a broad base upon which to learn from without requiring any one person alone to contend with the space and time requirements that would follow hundreds of plants.

Maybe it is overly ambitious, and I'm sure it would need thinking-out further than I have written here, but I wonder if by keeping things consistent (in particular the primary variable things like soil medium selection and lights used) we could remove a lot of the variables that are inherent in multiple people trying to do this work independently.

Perhaps we could then each grow our given specimens for a year or two to get them just large enough to be relatively mature, and then (as an example) collect exactly 500g or 1000g of each variety's combined plant mass (keeping in mind that our goal is really strain averages, so this could be made up of however many seedlings it takes to equal that weight), boil them together (or extract somehow as determined by the group) and then-- most critically, send these samples to some of our Nexus friends with access to analytical machinery to post the results.

What do you think, Nexians? Is this something that we could spend some time thinking about to bring together?

 

[pete666]

coAsTal, I would say the main problem here is the size of the cactus community. I doubt there would be more members willing to organize such endeavour than two or three. I may be wrong, but it looks like that.

We have two problems here - standrardized growing conditions, including harvest time and preparation and standardized analysis method. Both are difficult to reach imo. I don't know whether downwardsfromzero has anything concrete in his mind or whether he was just pointing to the fact there is nothing like that and without that we can't move forward.

I can imagine I might solve the first problem and to grow enough specimens within identical environment of my growbox. Then I might send them to the members who would continue with the analysis.

I even can imagine the members could use "standardized" way of "quantitative analysis" using mini-extraction by STB with precise titration which I use and tested with many various cactuses. It is very reliable when done correctly with the proper glassware and chemicals.

But in reality who would go this path? With the size of the community it is very unlikely this idea is viable.

I think better would be the strategy of more people (codename cactus squad? ) doing their own search and sharing the best results with the others. Everybody could just use his own growing conditions and analysis method.
If I get the best plant of anyone else, I can grow it grafted under my-standardized-conditions and analyze with "my-standardized-analysis-method" and compare with my best result. The same can be done by the other member with my best sample and we can compare the results.

Maybe some members already do have some potent specimens and if they would like to share their plants with others, they might join the squad even without active search. I know there were members stating they have highly potent plants. These members are not active anymore, but who knows, maybe one day they can get active again and join the squad. Though many people still wouldn't share their best commodity with the others, just for the sake of their ego. Nothing bad, just everybody is different and not everyone is willing to share their gold.

But as I've written, this community is small, so hard to say whether it may work.

 

[pete666]

Well, I've just read what it takes to import/export live cactus between EU and USA. If I get it right, Trichocereus is listed on CITES list. This means it is almost impossible to get it through legally.
Does anyone have any experience/info regarding this?

 

[downwardsfromzero]

I think better would be the strategy of more people (codename cactus squad?

To this end, I have been sharing (potent) specimens with suitable people whenever possible. I don't think any of them are Nexus members (yet!) and I thus anticipate this will take several years yet.

pete, I'm EU side of things if that helps. Currently my choice of grafting stock is Pereskia, inactive(?) Trichocereus and possibly a little Myrtillocactus geometrizans - so it would be necessary for me to obtain some Pereskiopsis if we consider this factor to be crucial to the project.

It should be underlined here, the Nexus is not a plant sharing forum, STS is the place for that.

"my-standardized-analysis-method"

I'm being lazy now, but did you post this in a concise outline here somewhere?

 

[pete666]

To this end, I have been sharing (potent) specimens with suitable people whenever possible.

Sounds good

I'm EU side of things if that helps.

Sounds even better

Currently my choice of grafting stock is Pereskia, inactive(?) Trichocereus and possibly a little Myrtillocactus geometrizans - so it would be necessary for me to obtain some Pereskiopsis if we consider this factor to be crucial to the project.

My idea is to exchange our best samples, then to grow them on whatever rootstock we prefer. You may use Pereskia, I will use Pereskiopsis. The same with "analysis", whatever this means to us. For me it is my mini-extraction with HCl titration, for you whatever you prefer. The important thing is to use the same growing conditions and analysis method we are using for our own plants, so we can compare the results of our best plant ant the exchanged plant.

If you send me your sample, I graft it, grow it (5-6 months indoors), harvest and analyze, I can tell you how many HCl drops is needed, so as well what is the alkaloid content. Because I use the same conditions/analysis for all of my plants, I can compare it to my best plant.

If you do the same with my sample, you can do the same, even when you select different conditions or analysis method. As far as you can quantify both your best and my best sample the same way, you should be able to tell your result.

Then we can compare our results. They should be the same, though this is not sure of course. If we meet, then it is quite likely our results are in line and we know which sample we should continue with. If not, we will know there are other variables we have not taken into an account.

It should be underlined here, the Nexus is not a plant sharing forum, STS is the place for that.

Yes, I am aware of that. But here it is not just about the exchange. Here we want to proceed with subsequent analysis and comparison. We want to get some data. And we would like to iterate this to get to something special.

I have checked again the rules and haven't found any rule that this would be breaking. If I am wrong, please anyone let me know....

"my-standardized-analysis-method"

I'm being lazy now, but did you post this in a concise outline here somewhere?

Please understand the quotes around the text : "my-standardized-analysis-method". I meant it is standardized for me. Of course this is not precise quantitative analysis. Nevertheless I am pretty sure it may give pretty stable results when done correctly by anoyne interested enough.

Basically it is just small-sized (100-130g fresh whole cactus) STB extraction with NaCl and HCl titration instead of back-salting. Titration is the last step and once the HCl drop count is known, everything is discarded. I work with 10 samples at a time. One sample takes 30 minutes of work.
Something has been written here. My STB seems to be emulsion free for all cactuses I have tested with it. Of course done to the point. If you or anyone would be interested trying it, I might have updated version that I currently use and is not available on Nexus. Just give me a shout and I would update it.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Great, thanks for the clarification. The disclaimer about plant exchange was for the benefit of others who might end up reading this

 

[drnocturne]

Another thing that is often not considered in this endeavor is speed of growth and girth. I have a couple strains of peru that grow very vigorously and fat that are decently potent but not the highest in potency. I have others, particularly pach strains that are supposedly very potent based on their reputation, but most of those grow so slowly and thinly that it can take 3 or 4 years just to obtain enough biomass for a single test.

Everyone tends to focus on potency alone, but if you can get a number of large plants going of a really vigorous grower that puts on a foot or more of fat growth in a season, you're going to be way ahead of someone who is growing the same number of plants that might be twice as potent by weight but grow much more slowly and not as fat.

The ironic thing about all this is that after all this effort to find the holy grail, I have not really found anything that surpasses the very first peru strain that I obtained over 20 years ago. Sometimes I have to wonder if all the effort is really worth it when it might be better to just focus on propagating one or two of the fastest and fattest growing ones.

 

[pete666]

I agree everyone should not just look for the potency, but for the growth rate too.
If you check my other thread, there is a table attached and the last column is the growth rate - g/day. This is an everage over all specimens of one hybrid. But I have records for each one specimen separately too.
My growth rate of course can't be compared to someone else's growth rate, because the growing conditions may and will be very different as well as the size of cactus and overall growing style.

I am aware that the growth rate can be slightly different for grafted seedling and grafted of cactus (slab graft). The seedling is grafted onto peres whereas half cactus ring is slab grafted onto another tricho which was already growing on the peres as can be seen here. But the differences don't seem to be significant when the time is measured from the first signs of growth for both methods.
Another problem can be the water content of each specimen. I am testing immediately after harvest when the differences in water content will be the most significant. It would be better to dry it off to normalize the samples.

drnocturne, can I ask you what is the potency of your first peru strain? Have you done any quantitative analysis or at least some extraction? Or if not, can you at least estimate based on bioassay what the mesc content might be?

 

[drnocturne]

Pete,
I understand that in your tek you are working exclusively with grafts; there may be some argument about this but I believe that the growth rate of grafted cacti is largely influenced by the power provided by the rootstock. Eventually I assume that you will be growing your top picks on their own and that might tell a different story.

My tek is very different as I am playing the long game. I mostly focus on cloned plants but I also grow from seed. When it comes to seed-grown plants, I plant hundreds of seeds and then my selection process begins by choosing just a few of the fastest growing plants to keep for myself. I call these the "pick of the litter". I don't graft I just patiently grow them naturally. About year 3 - 4 is when the growth rate really starts to spurt.

I don't believe that seedlings have full potential for producing alkaloids, so I will grow seedlings for years before taking any cuts from them, unless they break or rot in which case I will sacrifice it for science. The strongest sample I've found came from a partially rotted cutting, so don't toss out your rotten cacti boys and girls.

Regarding the potency of my first peru strain, it is roughly 0.75% total alkaloid yield by dry weight of the whole plant. That's not in the highest echelon but it's certainly not bad.

 

[pete666]

drnocturne, yes, the rootstock plays quite significant role. Every peres plant grows with its own speed and it is very likely this speed is later projected into the speed of growth of the scion.
I am pretty sure that even when I had all the peres plants originating from the same mother plant, they would still grow with different speeds. There are many variables that could influence the vigor, for example two levels of my growbox are bottom heated by the ligts of the bellow level. The bottom level doesn't have any heating as it is almost on the ground. The same is with the overall temperature, which is different for each level. This likely has an impact on the root mass development which is a base for the vigor.

I am not planning to grow directly in dirt, because of the space limitations (in-door). I can grow max to 20-25cm and then cut, so the real speed of growth on its own roots is not important for me.

My current strongest specimen came from very bad looking cutting that refused to root through whole summer season. That was the worst piece of cactus I have received commerically, I was told it is just for a consumption, no chance to use it for growing. I believed it was dead, so I put it aside waiting for an extraction. Next summer season it mad a pup!!! so I cut the pup and grafted it. And analyzed the cutting, giving estimated 0.0983%. Yes, it likely lost a lot of its water and can hardly be compared to other tested specimens full of water, but once I have the grafted pup big enough, I can test it properly.

So your 0.75% of alkaloids estimate is with few months within the dark or without that? If without, then it might double up the alkaloid content and 1,5% for whole plant would be very nice.

 

[Grey Fox]

I am not planning to grow directly in dirt, because of the space limitations (in-door). I can grow max to 20-25cm and then cut, so the real speed of growth on its own roots is not important for me.

That makes it quite challenging Pete. These are plants that can grow to 20 feet tall, in big stands of dozens of columns. You're basically talking about forcing the cacti to stay in an immature, dwarf state. And of course there is the whole question of whether trichos grown on peres will be less potent, as many believe the case to be with peyote grown that way.

I understand you believe that your current setup makes the most sense for your situation. But you have to consider that those conditions may not be optimal for potency. Many people have success growing trichos in containers and placing them outdoors through the summer, and then bringing them indoors for the winter. Artificial light is not necessary. The winter growth will be much less, but it allows for you to grow larger plants. If space is so limited, perhaps you can find room for a handful of larger, potted trichos, as opposed to many small plants grown on peres under lights. Allowing these plants to grow to a larger size gives a better idea of what they have to offer, and its also a more satisfying way to grow trichos as opposed to frequently chopping up baby plants.

 

[pete666]

That makes it quite challenging Pete. These are plants that can grow to 20 feet tall, in big stands of dozens of columns. You're basically talking about forcing the cacti to stay in an immature, dwarf state. And of course there is the whole question of whether trichos grown on peres will be less potent, as many believe the case to be with peyote grown that way.

Everything stated is questionable. I have seen contradicting information regarding the correlation between the age and potency as well as regarding correlation of growing on peres and potency.

I understand you believe that your current setup makes the most sense for your situation. But you have to consider that those conditions may not be optimal for potency. Many people have success growing trichos in containers and placing them outdoors through the summer, and then bringing them indoors for the winter. Artificial light is not necessary. The winter growth will be much less, but it allows for you to grow larger plants. If space is so limited, perhaps you can find room for a handful of larger, potted trichos, as opposed to many small plants grown on peres under lights. Allowing these plants to grow to a larger size gives a better idea of what they have to offer, and its also a more satisfying way to grow trichos as opposed to frequently chopping up baby plants.

Agreed it is possible the potency won't be optimal. And this is one of the reasons why I need very potent plant, so then even possible lower potency from grafted short growth will have the potential to provide enough medicine.

Until now I have analyzed just two plants growing on peres (the most bitter ones) and one was almost blank, the other was 0.023%. I have few specimens still growing, so they will be analyzed soon too. Most of the plants were eliminated due to the weak bitter taste, which as you know, turned to be likely useless method of preselection.
But even 0.023% can likely be doubled by latter storage in the darkness, giving about 0.05%, which is not as bad. Yes, I would like to have something like 0.1% or more and only future tells whether it is real.

I know growing trichos outdoors is much better, but I have tried and this is not a viable way in my situation. And because the main goal is not to grow cacti, but to have the source of medicine and my growbox can produce enough medicine for me every year, I go this way.

 

[Grey Fox]

That makes it quite challenging Pete. These are plants that can grow to 20 feet tall, in big stands of dozens of columns. You're basically talking about forcing the cacti to stay in an immature, dwarf state. And of course there is the whole question of whether trichos grown on peres will be less potent, as many believe the case to be with peyote grown that way.

Everything stated is questionable.

I'm not sure what you mean.

If you are confident that your setup is best for your situation then I wish you all best with it Pete. It sure would be an interesting experiment to let 1 pure bridgesii grow big for years in a container and compare it one day. Thanks for continuing to update the thread.

 

[pete666]

I'm not sure what you mean.

Sorry fox, I was writing this post in a hurry. I just wanted to say that it is questionable whether older plants are more potent than younger plants (not to say it is not true, we just don't have enough data). And it is questionable whether grafted cactus (tricho) is less potent than growing on its own roots too. I saw one study indicating the potency is the same.

If you are confident that your setup is best for your situation then I wish you all best with it Pete. It sure would be an interesting experiment to let 1 pure bridgesii grow big for years in a container and compare it one day. Thanks for continuing to update the thread.

I can't do this many years test, as I am not gonna have potted cacti anymore, but I still have two season mother plants whose new growth was analyzed recently. I am planning to analyze two or three of them to compare the old and new growth, so we should have at least some data.

 

[pete666]

Trying some new grafting techniques that could be useful for our endeavours...

- tricho double areole to peres top
- tricho areole to peres areole (multi)
- two tricho areoles on tricho

 

[coAsTal]

Love the efforts you are sharing Pete-- one day I hope to try my own hand at grafting and contribute as you are so kindly doing for all of us to learn from!!

 

[pete666]

You can participate right now! Keep fingers crossed they take! Thanks mate

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Quick question, what's a good EU source for grafting tape? Or are you simply purchasing via Amazon?