raw ayahuasca and tobacco juice

[jamie]

"There is a raw cannabis advocate and raw foodist named free love cannabis or free rob cannabis that got me interested in raw cannabis. He believes we can get high from it if we have a high raw alkalyzing diet as this may change the body to be able to digest raw plant material and even get high from it. But I believe he also does not think smoking or heat processing the herb is useful and only a perversion of the real uses of cannabis. He believes the true high from cannabis is the raw high and not the smoked or heat processed high as it "changes the chemical structure" leading to addictions and altrred states which are not beneficial."

Well...honestly that all sounds like a far fetched tail to me. There is tons of anthropological data going way back of cultures in india making bhang and other preperations of cannabis that involved heating the cannabis to activate it. Yes, it is highly medicinal when leaf and bud is used raw(becasue you can ingest huge ammounts passing out or freaking out) but I am highly highly skeptical of a person who would claim that alkalizing the body would do anything to convert the cannabinoids. I dont see any reason to assume that would take place..or to assume that heating cannabis was not it's true entheogenic preperation when we have tons of anthropological data to say otherwise.

The idea that using it raw(assuming you could get it to convert) would make it less addictive is even harder to believe. That makes absolutly no sense. THC acid is THC acid, period. Why would matter how it was converted? This is like saying raw cacao or raw coffee is not addictive or draining when used too much but cooked cacao or coffee is. I have spent a lot of time with raw cacao, to the point where I had myu own business making the stuff..I had and still do have many pounds of the highest quality "raw" beans I could get ahold of and the effects honestly do not differ from the beans when cooked. The shamans who run ceremonies with cacao in equador even claim that cooking it is ideal. I know someone who went down to equador last year to work with a cacao shaman and they just laugh at all the claims people make about raw cacao being better or less addictive etc..I think cannabis is the same way. I have done tests with the beans I have back to back..using them as is and then brewing thick dark hot chocolate with them and honestly I cant tell any different between the two.

 

[TheSt0rm]

I can tell the difference between raw yerba mate and heat processed yerba mate.

As for cacao that may be a different story due to the fact that it also has to be fermented, leaving it not really raw. Some people are just more sensitive than others. The shamans although they are quite spiritual do not know much or have experence kuch in raw foods I think. They may not be sensitive to it.

And like I said cacao is different. For the caffeinie kick I prefer raw yerba mate over cacao.

The raw versions yerba mate and marijuaja has helped me to get off addiction. They help me to transition from addiction to minimal use or none at all eventually to quitting.

 

[TheSt0rm]

Also... I think some things are just not meant to be raw... in fact may have been cultivated or hybridized to make use of the heat processed versions so I guess that may be why a cooked version may be more palatable than raw.

 

[TheSt0rm]

Also... I've read somewhere that according to a greek historian or two that ancient greeks would eat a diet primarily of raw fruit and nuts. Each generation supposedly lived up to 200 yrs. Of course this is not verifiable but its written in very old texts
So if that means there has been a documented society that has lived primarily vegan And raw and its true theb there you have it.

 

[Parshvik Chintan]

ancient greeks would eat a diet primarily of raw fruit and nuts.

entirely? or primarily?
what was secondary and tertiary?

 

[TheSt0rm]

ancient greeks would eat a diet primarily of raw fruit and nuts.

entirely? or primarily?
what was secondary and tertiary?

I think only raw fruits and nuts. Not sure if they had greens or not. But the language used makes me wonder if it was just omitted.

Rawfoodexplained.com has the quotes. Also dr robert morse' book mentions this.

I don't agree with everything on rfe.com just to note.

 

[jamie]

Robert Morse always sounded highly iffy to me personally. I cant trust what that guys says to be true. This whole thing about the greeks being raw foodests and vegans etc is something I have only ever heard other vegans and raw foodest claim. I cant ever find any real evidence behind these claims so for the moment I have to really question these people who make those claims as well. Ancient texts are not documented evidence..becasue there is a whole lot of stuff in ancient texts and if I was going to assume that was evidence of somethng than I would have to assume there is documented evidence of aliens flying around in space ships hybridizing humans as slave workers etc also, as that kind of stuff is spoken of in ancient texts as well..

Not that I dont think anything written in ancient texts is actaully reality but we cant really resort to it as evidence in this way for obvious reasons.

 

[Parshvik Chintan]

becasue there is a whole lot of stuff in ancient texts and if I was going to assume that was evidence of somethng than I would have to assume there is documented evidence of aliens flying around in space ships hybridizing humans as slave workers etc also, as that kind of stuff is spoken of in ancient texts as well..

ehh.. not exactly. a lot of those theories come from sitchin (mostly through icke and drunvalo melchizedek) who's translations are thoroughly refuted (for example annunaki has nothing to do with "those who descended from heaven" or anything related to that).

but yes, there are a lot of ridiculous things written down over the years, and discerning myth from history can be a challenge (one which we handle poorly).. for example, i believe merlin was responsible for stonehenge.

also this thread is officially de-railed

 

[TheSt0rm]

Robert Morse always sounded highly iffy to me personally. I cant trust what that guys says to be true. This whole thing about the greeks being raw foodests and vegans etc is something I have only ever heard other vegans and raw foodest claim. I cant ever find any real evidence behind these claims so for the moment I have to really question these people who make those claims as well. Ancient texts are not documented evidence..becasue there is a whole lot of stuff in ancient texts and if I was going to assume that was evidence of somethng than I would have to assume there is documented evidence of aliens flying around in space ships hybridizing humans as slave workers etc also, as that kind of stuff is spoken of in ancient texts as well..

Not that I dont think anything written in ancient texts is actaully reality but we cant really resort to it as evidence in this way for obvious reasons.

Yea I don't like robert morse much either but I got his book in interet to his claims about fruit and in particular the acid fruits stimulating the movement of the lymphatics.

Btw as re the comment about eating raw meat. I'm sure the fats are pretty stable coming from raw meat and there are a lot of saturated fats. As well as bioavailable hormones but I have to wonder if the intake of these hormones are really good for us. I feel that these hormones are for the animal and not for us in particular and it can end up overstimulating. I have seen ppl who eat raw meat saying they feel more alive an stimulated bit I would think it cd be an overstimulation... ie taking hormones like adrenaline or ithers. Neurochemicals included. Esp. Those which are elevated during the hunt. I wonder of its pH as well.

 

[TheSt0rm]

becasue there is a whole lot of stuff in ancient texts and if I was going to assume that was evidence of somethng than I would have to assume there is documented evidence of aliens flying around in space ships hybridizing humans as slave workers etc also, as that kind of stuff is spoken of in ancient texts as well..

ehh.. not exactly. a lot of those theories come from sitchin (mostly through icke and drunvalo melchizedek) who's translations are thoroughly refuted (for example annunaki has nothing to do with "those who descended from heaven" or anything related to that).

but yes, there are a lot of ridiculous things written down over the years, and discerning myth from history can be a challenge (one which we handle poorly).. for example, i believe merlin was responsible for stonehenge.

also this thread is officially de-railed

Heheh derailed. Yea I don't care so much.

But actually my main concern in creating this thread was tobacco. Dmt was secondary but I included it since this is a dmt forum and I'm not allowed to post in the "other psychedelics" subforum. I'm also willing to experiment with raw dmt brews myself. I dont really care if they are "weak" at this point. I wd he more concerned of its use medicinallyor meditatively/spiritually but not to get totally fucked up out of my mind. Ie somewhat still grounded.

 

[inaniel]

thestorm, i was wondering which foods you prefer to eat sprouted and germinated?


i eat a high raw diet (not completely though), and have been looking to incorporate more sprouted foods (lentils, quinoa recently) into my daily intake.

 

[TheSt0rm]

Well right now since I'm beginning... and I follow gabriel cousens' phase 1 plan, which is low in sugar but higher in fats. It requires atleast 1 to 2 lbs of leafy greens a day. I use the sunflower greens for that as the base.

Right now its mainly sunflower greens and soaked/ germinated or sprouted nuts and seeds. Almonds, brazilnuts, sunflower seeds, pumpkinseeds, big on sesame, and hazelnuts if I can find them. Also soaked shelled hempseeds. Id also like pecans and walnuts but they're damn expensive. I may incorporate a small amount of the walnuts.. as for pecans well hazelnuts will do if again I can find them. Mainly for a source of omega 9 when I've had too many omega 6 before it ends up counter balancing the omega 3 ratio of 1:2 to 1:4 omega 3 to 6.

Microsprouts of alfalfa, clover and fenugreek.

I was doing pea shoots but I'll have to get more equipment and schedule a steady routine of juicing then with my manual juicer. Same with wheat or barleygrass but I prefer barleygrass.

I buy sprouted flax/chia powder which I have about 6 tablespoons of... often they can be heaping tblsp esp if they're flax.
Also I plan to incorporate lentils and mung beans.
I also have kelp and dulse.

Its mainly salads for now with with minimal use of overt carbs but the legumes can be had more but in moderation due to the digestibility. Small amounts of berries (except for blackberries) and carrot or beets in large salads. I also like celery and prepared eggplant as condiment.

I also use chlorella and spirulina as well as afa algae.

 

[TheSt0rm]

I may want to add poppy seeds to that collection as they jave valuable nutrition when germinated like zinc. I don't know how kuchlmuch they can be eaten though or if daily due to having small amounts of the psychoactives?

Also I dont know if I cd do quinoa... it always makes me feel I'll or just not palatable raw and evej sprouted. Quinoa has a lot of saponins which are hard to wash off.

 

[Ilex]

Factory farming is the real enemy that has bread a complete lack of resepct for other beings and the cycle of life in general. If people really cared about ending the torture and destruction they would boytcott monsanto, monocultured crops and the mainstream dairy industry etc and not just attack meat eaters in general.

I think we don't know all that much about our history to say that we have always been ominvorous. And just because these tradotions have existed for thousand of years it doesn't tell me what existed before these practices. And as part of evolution we can always improve upon what may considered ancient. Imo in all cases I believe animal killing is just fcked up and I never agreed with it. It can be all an illusion that we have been led to believe in some false darwinian theory that the purpose of life is to hunt and kill and war. Nobody knows who or what or how these animals were created. For all we know they cd have been genetically engineered or the life cycles set up by higher lifeforms like ETs or spiritual beings. I dobt agree with it ajd it's always felt wrong. Granted in reverence to the spirits of the animals and cycles of life on earth its a lesser evil but its still an evil to me.

Plant spirits have been said to enjoy being consumed and cultivated. Its a symbiotic relationship. So is killing animals for food but one thing is for sure that on an obvious level animals show pain and suffering being killed while plants do not. We can also talk about how plants alsi have measurable suffering with scientific equipment but that is just what is observable with that equipment. There are things which are more obvious to us with our 5 senses and plus we have the spiritual side of things which can tell a different story.

Jamie: I totally agree, it is factory farming and monocropping/industrial agriculture that's our main issue these days. We've lost the sense of how to treat any species (plant or animal) with respect to its natural life cycle and the environment. To me there's no difference to killing a plant or an animal. Both are sentient forms of life and deserve equal respect in my mind.

And I've got to disagree with you, TheStOrm: All the archaeological evidence shows that our ancestors ate wild game meats, birds, fish and shellfish. Lots of them! Pretty much any human habitated site is littered with refuse of animal bones (invariably cracked to obtain the marrow), midden piles of shells or fish bones (when near the ocean), not to mention all the stone tools that are clearly designed for killing animals and then processing the meat and hides. When it comes down to it, meat (especially organ meats) are the most nutrient dense and fat dense source of food for hunter/gatherer societies. Sure, wild plant foods were a big part of the diet too, but it is incredibly hard (if not impossible) to live off a diet of only wild plant foods. Veganism is a relatively new experiment, and is only possible because of the wide availability of nuts, seeds, avocados, coconut oil etc. obtained through agriculture.

Clovis points, (about 9000 to 12,000 years ago) are clearly not for killing plants. Grind it bind it, and shove it in a mammoth:

And the atlatl (precursor to the bow and arrow) is specifically designed for killing large game animals:

Re: poppy seeds - they sometimes have small amounts of opiate alkaloids deposited on the seeds depending on the strain and how it is harvested. Most people trying to get "high" from it use amounts around 1/2 to 1 pounds, so unless you are eating a whole lot of them you will probably be okay.

Re: heated vs. non-heated Cannabis - I have heard about heating (decarboxylation) making marijuana more strongly psychoactive. However, I think unheated marijuana can still be psychoactive, it just takes more to get there. One time a couple friends threw a quarter ounce of pressed hash (the green stuff made from compressed trichomes, like bubble hash it was not heated) into a blender with some avocados to make a smoothie. We split it between three people, it took a while to kick in but when it did I couldn't even get up off the floor for 5 hours! It was very psychedelic, I saw crawling visuals all over the walls and ceiling.

 

[TheSt0rm]

Factory farming is the real enemy that has bread a complete lack of resepct for other beings and the cycle of life in general. If people really cared about ending the torture and destruction they would boytcott monsanto, monocultured crops and the mainstream dairy industry etc and not just attack meat eaters in general.

I think we don't know all that much about our history to say that we have always been ominvorous. And just because these tradotions have existed for thousand of years it doesn't tell me what existed before these practices. And as part of evolution we can always improve upon what may considered ancient. Imo in all cases I believe animal killing is just fcked up and I never agreed with it. It can be all an illusion that we have been led to believe in some false darwinian theory that the purpose of life is to hunt and kill and war. Nobody knows who or what or how these animals were created. For all we know they cd have been genetically engineered or the life cycles set up by higher lifeforms like ETs or spiritual beings. I dobt agree with it ajd it's always felt wrong. Granted in reverence to the spirits of the animals and cycles of life on earth its a lesser evil but its still an evil to me.

Plant spirits have been said to enjoy being consumed and cultivated. Its a symbiotic relationship. So is killing animals for food but one thing is for sure that on an obvious level animals show pain and suffering being killed while plants do not. We can also talk about how plants alsi have measurable suffering with scientific equipment but that is just what is observable with that equipment. There are things which are more obvious to us with our 5 senses and plus we have the spiritual side of things which can tell a different story.

Jamie: I totally agree, it is factory farming and monocropping/industrial agriculture that's our main issue these days. We've lost the sense of how to treat any species (plant or animal) with respect to its natural life cycle and the environment. To me there's no difference to killing a plant or an animal. Both are sentient forms of life and deserve equal respect in my mind.

And I've got to disagree with you, TheStOrm: All the archaeological evidence shows that our ancestors ate wild game meats, birds, fish and shellfish. Lots of them! Pretty much any human habitated site is littered with refuse of animal bones (invariably cracked to obtain the marrow), midden piles of shells or fish bones (when near the ocean), not to mention all the stone tools that are clearly designed for killing animals and then processing the meat and hides. When it comes down to it, meat (especially organ meats) are the most nutrient dense and fat dense source of food for hunter/gatherer societies. Sure, wild plant foods were a big part of the diet too, but it is incredibly hard (if not impossible) to live off a diet of only wild plant foods. Veganism is a relatively new experiment, and is only possible because of the wide availability of nuts, seeds, avocados, coconut oil etc. obtained through agriculture.

Clovis points, (about 9000 to 12,000 years ago) are clearly not for killing plants. Grind it bind it, and shove it in a mammoth:

And the atlatl (precursor to the bow and arrow) is specifically designed for killing large game animals:

Re: poppy seeds - they sometimes have small amounts of opiate alkaloids deposited on the seeds depending on the strain and how it is harvested. Most people trying to get "high" from it use amounts around 1/2 to 1 pounds, so unless you are eating a whole lot of them you will probably be okay.

Re: heated vs. non-heated Cannabis - I have heard about heating (decarboxylation) making marijuana more strongly psychoactive. However, I think unheated marijuana can still be psychoactive, it just takes more to get there. One time a couple friends threw a quarter ounce of pressed hash (the green stuff made from compressed trichomes, like bubble hash it was not heated) into a blender with some avocados to make a smoothie. We split it between three people, it took a while to kick in but when it did I couldn't even get up off the floor for 5 hours! It was very psychedelic, I saw crawling visuals all over the walls and ceiling.

Well wht exactly are you disagreeing with about me? Just my diet? I don't think I have said anything which opposes to your information. Your main argument seems to be that just because eating animals is an ancient practice therefore it is best. really wd.not care that it is ancient if I feel it's wrong then it's how it feels to me. Or at the very least unecessary now with all the agricultural knowledge the world has. Again ancient his story goes back only so far also... so are ancient practices really so ancient?

 

[Ilex]

"I think we don't know all that much about our history to say that we have always been ominvorous."
That's what I was disagreeing with. The archaeological evidence for us being omnivorous goes back as far as we have been human.

I don't really care what kind of diet you follow, that's up to the individual to decide what feels best for them.

 

[jamie]

When I see people who follow that diet 100%, eating tons of sprouts every day, drinking spring water, all organic fruits and vegetables and wild foods etc..and watch them suffer..watch them stop having a period..watch them develope panic attacks that happen on a daily basis..so tired they can barley get out of bed in the morning..

..and then completely turn around within 2 weeks on a more primal sort of diet..

all I can assume is that raw veganism is just not what people in the raw food world claim it is. I saw all this in person. I had years of experience with it. Im taking about people with 7 years on this diet 100%.

How long have you been a raw vegan? If it has not been a couple years than no offence but what you say is just what you have read. It takes a good while for something like b21 deficiency to show up...and you said you take b12 supplements..why? If you can get it all on a vegan diet why supplement? I take some supplements too I will admit..I take high dose vitamine C to deal with the radiation from Japan. I dont think any diet is going to be 100% protective at this time on our planet.

Even some of the most well know and outspoken people in the raw food world take b12 supplements..and I know of one is particular that has been discussed in this thread briefly a few pages back(I wont name them) that told my gf up front that he takes them also, becasue in theory we should not need it as a vegan..but that in reality this is obviously not the case. That tells me something.

It really is not so cut and dry as it seems on the surface. The raw vegan world is filled with people who claim to be vegan but really dont seem to be..or supplement after telling everyone else supplements are bad..people who push the diet for years writing books only to end up paleo or adding in raw milk etc..people who cover up deaths at their retreats(like Doug Graham) or ban people from their forums who make posts about how bad they are doing on the diet.

You should just do whatever feels right for you..but personally I just prefer to form my opinions based on people with 5 years, 10 years 15 years experience on that sort of diet..people who have successfuly had healthy children on that diet..when I see people on that diet who stop having periods etc I have to wonder if they can even procreate properly on such a diet.

If you look at the fruitarian guy "Storm" who pushes the diet as the best diet for all humans..and shows pictures of his raw vegan family(kids raised that way)..and then look at the pictures weston price took way back of indigenous children raised on indigenous diets..it is obvious to me the indigenous children look infinitaly healthier. People always go on about how great Storms family looks..but it's nothing compared to the people weston price photographed. This does not prove veganism does not work..but for me it does point heavily towards the fact that veganism is definalty not any better in the slightest.

Im not so much interested in ending all animal killing though..only the needless animal abuse concentration camps that factory farming produces. I live in an area of heavy rainforest..I spend a lot of time there observing nature..everything feeds on everything else. This is the cycle of life. At one point in my life I did feel bad about having to kill anything(though as a vegan I still killed plants) but I have gained a far deeper and (for me) more integrated perspective of my place in this world. My goal is not to transcend the world or the cycles of life I have arisen within. My only goal at this point is to live in way that coheres to a deeper and more intimate union with the sacred. Nature is sacred to me..and this is just how I observe nature to work. It is neither right nor wrong..it is just what nature has found to be coherant. This is how an eco-system thrives.


There is nothing coherant about mainstream agriculture(monoculture) or factory farming. A vegan diet does not instantly free one from this cycle..and often a vegan diet relies on monocultural farming practices and food being shipped half way around the globe.

 

[jamie]

I want to add one more thing..becasue I think this is important concidering many many people bring up the idea of epigenetic degredation(which I thoroughly support) and specifically the ideas presented in the book "Left in the Dark"..and the ideas of Weston Price..both people have presented a situation of epigenetic degredation..though Price concluded it was due to modern agriculture practices, refined graines, corn syrups and pasturized diary products which removed us from our traditional indigenous diets..and the ideas of Left in the Dark are that we were once tropical forest dwelling fruigivoires.

If yuo actaully understand the idea of epigenetics, and the theory that we have undergone epigenetic degredation..and then assume we were actaully once way back essentially fruitarian apes in the jungle..it is not realistic to assume that we now will just go back to a raw vegan or fruitarian diet and things will be okay. Sorry, but if you think this than you just dont fully grasp the idea of epigenetics.

We are where we are now. We are not apes hundreds of thousands of years ago. If we have undergone epigenetic changes for the length of time proposed in Left in the Dark than you cant assume that we can easily adapt back to that sort of a diet. It does not work that way. Our bodies are what they are now..we were born with these bodies..not the bodies of fruit eating forest dwellin apes. Assumiong that theory is correct there is a whole lot of stuff that went on between now and then that has changed us, period. Many people would not not adapt so well to that sort of a diet today.

Personally I do think we have undergone epigenetic degredation but I think the truth is somewhere between the ideas of Tony Wright and Weston Price. I dont think raw veganism is the ultimate answer, otherwise everyone would just thrive on that diet, which is obviously not the case.

I am bringing this up becasue this is so often presented as if it is an easy answer to such a complex problem that is being put forth. This sort of approach is not realistic. We have changed. Whatever we are now, this is what we are. We have to make the best of the situation we are in NOW. For most people I think this is going to mean get off conventional pesticide foods, get off packaged premade preserved foods, get off factory farmed meats and toxic tap water and refined grains and sugars etc..and get onto a whole foods diet free of toxic chemcials that is more in line with our origional indigenous diets, and get onto clean water..and bring in the complex neuroactive plant pharmacology..and for gods sake, fix the soil. Then take care of the other lifestyle aspects. I honeslty think that is the best most people can do that this time.

 

[TheSt0rm]

Thia video series by Gabriel Cousens cover a lot of the topics you've mentioned.

I've also seen people thrive on the raw vegan diet.... raw vegan diets that are exceptionally high in sprouts and high omega 3 in proper ratio to omega 6 are still fairly new and rare. Again I don't like david wolfe. Gabriel Cousens seems to be very sound although I dont believe he has gotten yet to fullblown with the sprouts. Everytime I look at popular raw vegan meals I see so mcuh that is wrong. Everything has very little phytonutrients. I take the stuff with the most.concentration of jutrients.

I also do supplement because even though I still have a raw diet its not the best it cd be right now as I haven't worked.out the proper proportions and I do think also just the fact that our soils are depleted may be one factor. Also b12 is not just a vegan thing.

 

[TheSt0rm]

I want to add one more thing..becasue I think this is important concidering many many people bring up the idea of epigenetic degredation(which I thoroughly support) and specifically the ideas presented in the book "Left in the Dark"..and the ideas of Weston Price..both people have presented a situation of epigenetic degredation..though Price concluded it was due to modern agriculture practices, refined graines, corn syrups and pasturized diary products which removed us from our traditional indigenous diets..and the ideas of Left in the Dark are that we were once tropical forest dwelling fruigivoires.

If yuo actaully understand the idea of epigenetics, and the theory that we have undergone epigenetic degredation..and then assume we were actaully once way back essentially fruitarian apes in the jungle..it is not realistic to assume that we now will just go back to a raw vegan or fruitarian diet and things will be okay. Sorry, but if you think this than you just dont fully grasp the idea of epigenetics.

We are where we are now. We are not apes hundreds of thousands of years ago. If we have undergone epigenetic changes for the length of time proposed in Left in the Dark than you cant assume that we can easily adapt back to that sort of a diet. It does not work that way. Our bodies are what they are now..we were born with these bodies..not the bodies of fruit eating forest dwellin apes. Assumiong that theory is correct there is a whole lot of stuff that went on between now and then that has changed us, period. Many people would not not adapt so well to that sort of a diet today.

Personally I do think we have undergone epigenetic degredation but I think the truth is somewhere between the ideas of Tony Wright and Weston Price. I dont think raw veganism is the ultimate answer, otherwise everyone would just thrive on that diet, which is obviously not the case.

I am bringing this up becasue this is so often presented as if it is an easy answer to such a complex problem that is being put forth. This sort of approach is not realistic. We have changed. Whatever we are now, this is what we are. We have to make the best of the situation we are in NOW. For most people I think this is going to mean get off conventional pesticide foods, get off packaged premade preserved foods, get off factory farmed meats and toxic tap water and refined grains and sugars etc..and get onto a whole foods diet free of toxic chemcials that is more in line with our origional indigenous diets, and get onto clean water..and bring in the complex neuroactive plant pharmacology. Then take care of the other lifestyle aspects. I honeslty think that is the best most people can do that this time.

I did say I dont do fruitarianism. Also juicing greens is a great way to get the body back into strngth if we have anything deficient in our diets.